Sometimes its good to get a little perspective

Favorite quotations, etc.
Dragline
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Post by Dragline »

Maybe ERE is really not so extreme in the greater scheme of things:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... ay/254761/


J.O.S.H.
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Post by J.O.S.H. »

Moving to a developing nation is part of my ERE-plan. Hear people like bigato talk about prices around Sao Paulo makes me think, not knowing Spanish [EDIT TO CLARIFY: my destination would be Ecuador, which is cheaper and has lower inflation than many other developing nations] is costing me some amount in unneeded increased savings (and it sounds like a cool place). At an assisted learning rate (SRS + pirated spanish dramas for 24/7 immersion), I could get a pretty good return on my effort.
Brazil isn't India, and India isn't the C.A.R., but I suppose my assertion is, there isn't any technique that's out of bounds when I plan my future. If $1/day can do it, then you need ~16k to retire at 2% SWR. I could do that before I learned about ERE, so this voyage is simply a calculation of precisely which luxuries I would prefer to purchase given their fully-loaded costs via a perpetuity.


EREinAcademe
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Post by EREinAcademe »

and they speak portuguese in brazil ;)
@dragline, thanks for the article, it's good to remember we are fortunate to be able to make the deliberate decision to live on "so little"


livinlite
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Post by livinlite »

Excellent find Dragline.
And J.O.S.H. has a great point...for all of us who feel like we are cutting things to the bone compared to our peers...it's really important to remember the context we're living in. Change your peers...and suddenly you're living like a king.


JohnnyH
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Location: Rockies

Post by JohnnyH »

"In poor countries without national health care or retirement programs, families have to conserve what they can..." THIS. Americans have been trained for generations to trust their entire future, well-being, savings and safety to the government. That compounded by central banking (punish savings and encourage debt) have made almost the entire US population completely beholden to the political system... Sad.


JasonR
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Post by JasonR »

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Last edited by JasonR on Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

before45
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Post by before45 »

If anyone is interested in reading about how very poor people make, spend, and save money, I recommend "Poor Economics: A Radical Rethinking of the Way to Fight Global Poverty" by Abhijit Banerjee and Esther Duflo. It was fascinating and there is information in it both depressing and hopeful.


Freedom_2018
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Post by Freedom_2018 »


Felix
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Post by Felix »

Thanks a lot for the recommendation. I've been thinking about these issues very much recently so it came at a perfect time.


Surio
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Post by Surio »

Last year, when I had a tiff with @photoguy on trade 'plus and minus', on the "Canandian Content blog" thread, I wrote a four part post on the minuses, on my blog. Part II had a review of that very book.
ETA: My posts are longer than Jacob's, but shorter than Venkat's and I use images and cartoons to retain reader interest.
http://sawbonessurio.wordpress.com/2011 ... e-part-ii/


JasonR
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Post by JasonR »

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Last edited by JasonR on Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Surio
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Post by Surio »

@JasonR,

Ha Ha! Liked that question.
You need to change your diet from the staple fare of feel-good-ending-with-redemption-now-cue-uplifting music-hollywood-films to real drab-arthouse-european-cinema!
Oh Yes, there's a splendid wedding from all that savings, and an auto rickshaw purchase and some jewels as well. But the book makes for an incredibly gritty read. I remember one of them has their entire wad of money stolen as well.
Basically, this book is more "Les Miserables" rather than "Shawshank Redemption" ;-).
But it cures you of "TED talk optimism" forever ;-)
My post summarises the book (Hope you have read it?)
Now that we are on the topic of "favela chic" meets "poverty porn", here's my wife's recommendation on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Everybody-Loves-G ... 0140259848
DW also adds:

There's an "IT India" that everyone knows, there's a "land of milk and honey" USA that everyone knows. These two books (Portfolios of the poor, Everybody loves a good drought) show the other side of India, and I know there's a similar "other side" for the USA also.


JasonR
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Post by JasonR »

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Last edited by JasonR on Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DutchGirl
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Post by DutchGirl »

Oh, come on people. Are you really expecting folks to live on $2 per day and then thrive? Of course these stories are sad, and most of the times these people are one small setback away from disaster. And that is why we call them poor. They do survive on $2 per day until they don't survive anymore. And then they starve and die. So let's stop comparing ourselves to them and stop blaming them for not managing their money better or so. We are the very very lucky ones, and maybe we should try to help them get from two to three to twenty dollars per day, so they finally can stop surviving and start living.


Surio
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Post by Surio »

Oh yes, it is mainly social cohesion that drives success rates. In fact, social cohesion in such settings exist not just between extended families, but also friends, strangers, the whole community as well.
They are also more welcoming, gregarious and accepting of strangers and other people into their midst than their poverty would suggest.
Indeed, there are case studies of the converse. Paranoia, suspicion (the opposites of trust and goodwill) undoes all the progress to the ground, and even that is documented.
Still, I only notionally like the book and don't like some parts of the book very much. Chiefly because, bulk of their questionnaires are designed with "leading questions" in order to extract answers that satisfy Western prejudices and loaded Western notions of liberalism and more such nonsense. If I had written the book I would have described (interpreted) some scenarios very differently, designed the questionnaires differently and asked different questions.

They are World Bank sponsored studies and books after all. Still, it is better than nothing, and I grudgingly accept that fact.
Anyway, that's that.


Surio
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Post by Surio »

@Dutchgirl,

Now, that's what I would call a 'perspective'. +1 to that thought.


JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

@DutchGirl: Please don't underestimate human ingenuity. I'm positive there are countless examples of people who are thriving... Also, they are already surviving without anyone's help and to suggest they require charity might be considered insulting.
Not saying that life in the EU/US shouldn't be appreciated. But to insist that these "poor" people "need" our help doesn't give them enough credit.


Surio
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Post by Surio »

@JohnnyH,

I think they do need help. They deserve all the help they can need. And there is nothing wrong with offering help too. Local charities pitch in with providing collateral for auto rickshaw, standing guarantee for shops, etc. Dutchgirl never said "charity". Nor did I use that word. It is help. Genuine help, as opposed to charity.
While I agree that all our lives are one step away from disaster, they (the heroes of the book) are more vulnerable to it than we are.
I second @before45's reading suggestion: "Poor Economics: A Radical Rethinking of the Way to Fight Global Poverty". Esther Duflo's papers have some very innovative DoEs on these lines.

http://www.amazon.com/Poor-Economics-Ra ... 775&sr=1-1
Also read Paul Polak's book on fighting poverty.

http://www.amazon.com/Out-Poverty-Tradi ... 1576754499
Those two books and papers give brilliant ideas on how to approach charity as a socio-capitalistic endeavour and not the insulting manner that is currently being adopted. So, charity itself is not insulting. How you go about it is.
Esther duflo (a petite French woman ;-)) has a TED talk too, and she has such a beautiful French accented English that will make the talk appear shorter than it is. ;-)
Remember, it is 'help' they need, not 'charity' (as the PWE has brainwashed us into believing) :-)


JasonR
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Post by JasonR »

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Last edited by JasonR on Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

J.O.S.H.
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Post by J.O.S.H. »

And surely this discussion leads back into discussions of comfort. Yes, we have more comfort. We own more things that bring comfort to many.
But I'm not entirely sure simply saying that 'we should make them rich' is complete, not in this context. With so much talk about Hedonic Adaption, I'm surprised no one says, these guys are in a situation that is ideal for us. That their situation should be emulated with our resources.
I live in the LA area. I am forced to pay obscene amounts for rent. There are simply zero options in the $200-$400 range, not unless I can share a studio with several other people, which is a tough sell (and believe me, I'm trying to make that sale). But the weather is perfect. If I was legally allowed to live under a piece of sheet metal, I would. Partially because of the money, partially because I don't wish to rely on physical things for my happiness.
So, yes, life sucks for a lot of people. And yes, they can do little about it. But I think we all over-estimate how much it sucks, and further over-estimate how much we can mitigate the fundamental troubles of the world. Variation in quality of life (measured in happiness, not in dollars, not in widescreen TVs) varies more from person to person than it does from culture to culture. Savings, comparative versus absolute poverty, and charity are all red herrings.
In all seriousness, the title and original post of the thread says it all. We are pansies compared to billions who spend so little that a signing bonus at a job in this country could fuel someone's ERE dreams. So why not step up?


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