Managing Expectations & Gratitude

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Ego
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Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by Ego »

I thought this was an interesting take on expectations and gratitude.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/28/opini ... itude.html

I’m sometimes grumpier when I stay at a nice hotel. I have certain expectations about the service that’s going to be provided. I get impatient if I have to crawl around looking for a power outlet, if the shower controls are unfathomable, if the place considers itself too fancy to put a coffee machine in each room. I’m sometimes happier at a budget motel, where my expectations are lower, and where a functioning iron is a bonus and the waffle maker in the breakfast area is a treat.

This little phenomenon shows how powerfully expectations structure our moods and emotions, none more so than the beautiful emotion of gratitude.

Gratitude happens when some kindness exceeds expectations, when it is undeserved. Gratitude is a sort of laughter of the heart that comes about after some surprising kindness.


and

We live in a capitalist meritocracy. This meritocracy encourages people to be self-sufficient — masters of their own fate. But people with dispositional gratitude are hyperaware of their continual dependence on others. They treasure the way they have been fashioned by parents, friends and ancestors who were in some ways their superiors. They’re glad the ideal of individual autonomy is an illusion because if they were relying on themselves they’d be much worse off.

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by jacob »

Also see, stock market ;-P

This is why, I believe pessimists must be some of the happiest people around ... like (excuse me for the vacuous filler but it's no worse than "uh ah"), "things aren't as bad as I thought they'd be?! Yay! Hooray!" .... whereas optimists must be continuously bummed that, like (ha!), things eventually turned out to be adhere to more realistic expectations than my rah-rah cheerleading---again!

8-)

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by jennypenny »

@Ego--You owe me for making me read a Brooks editorial. :P

It's no surprise this piece bugs me. Everyone knows my frustration with the 'gratitude' movement (see also 'meaning' movement and 'happiness' movement :D ). It's probably also not a surprise that Brooks annoys me. Aside from coming off as an effete member of the meritocracy he criticizes in the piece, his definition of gratitude comes across as self-aggrandizement more than gratitude ... "But people with dispositional gratitude are hyperaware of their continual dependence on others. They treasure the way they have been fashioned by parents, friends and ancestors who were in some ways their superiors. They’re glad the ideal of individual autonomy is an illusion because if they were relying on themselves they’d be much worse off." 'I'm so great because all of the people around me and who came before me were so great' crosses the line to me and completely misses the humility that I see as a key component in gratitude.

He continues ... "Gratitude is also a form of social glue. In the capitalist economy, debt is to be repaid to the lender. But a debt of gratitude is repaid forward, to another person who also doesn’t deserve it. In this way each gift ripples outward and yokes circles of people in bonds of affection." Kum ba yah. :roll: Debts are debts, whether financial or emotional. Gratitude does not/should not come with any emotional baggage or strings. What Brooks doesn't get is that people with a healthy take on gratitude don't play that game at all. They aren't keeping score like he implies here ... "But people with dispositional gratitude are continually struck by the fact that they are given far more than they pay for — and are much richer than they deserve. Their families, schools and summer camps put far more into them than they give back."

Score-keeping is part of what I question about the gift economy, which Brooks also mentions "But people with grateful dispositions are attuned to the gift economy where people are motivated by sympathy as well as self-interest. In the gift economy intention matters." As I said, if the act came with an obligation of any kind, there is no need to be grateful to that person. Gift economies are still economies based on transactions which then shouldn't require the gratitude of the recipient. If a gift economy wanted to be more emotionally healthy, it should eliminate the score-keeping altogether.

It's not that I don't believe in gratitude. Giving thanks is a daily, deliberate exercise for me, usually during prayer. I think learning to be grateful is an important part of a person's emotional health. I just don't think it should be tied to expectations or bonds. I get Jacob's joke about pessimists and optimists, but IMO the key to being a "person with dispositional gratitude" as Brooks puts it is having no expectations whatsoever. This is where I wholeheartedly agree with stoicism. Anticipating the emotional outcome of an event skews a person's perception of the event. This might seem like a good thing if a person learns to temper their expectations, but that person is still letting their emotions and expectations frame their perceptions. To my mind, the best kind of gratitude comes from being able to look back at unadulterated moments and appreciate all of the ones that enriched your life in some way. I'm not saying that a person shouldn't fully immerse themselves emotionally in the present. What I'm saying is that if a person has no preconceived notions or expectations, the emotions they feel in the present will be more authentic, and the genuineness and unexpectedness of those emotions will make it easier to find and feel gratitude afterward.

The other issue I had with Brooks' definition of gratitude, and he's not alone, is that a person can only be grateful for things that are interpreted as positive. Someone who's mastered gratitude can find reasons to be grateful even during the worst periods in their life. That goes back to the humility I mentioned earlier that I think is an essential part of gratitude. If you can humble yourself enough to be grateful for simply being human and having the chance to experience everything that being human entails, you can understand true gratitude.
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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by DSKla »

Excellent breakdown, Jenny. I wholeheartedly agree that if there is any understanding that you have to repay the kindness (back or forward), it is a transaction. People who are kind and gracious keep no ledger, and make no profit/loss projections.

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by jacob »

Ideally I'd like to set my expectations as well as my expectations of my expectations ... and my expectations of those expectation expectations ... and so on ... so be somewhat lower than [my expected] outcome ... but alas, therein lies the rub of such deliberate self-delusion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guess_2/3_of_the_average

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I believe that happiness is mostly a physiological state, so the happiest people are those who are reasonably optimistic about their ability to regain or improve their baseline in a rational manner consistent with self-aware self-care (as opposed to either self-indulgence or self-abnegation.) Tying happiness to status beyond the status necessary to trade for the resources (inclusive of certain varieties of social interaction) necessary for physiological well-being will thus prove counter-productive. Also, people will necessarily be happier if they decide that they like change, because things tend towards change even if you take no action, and it is generally easier to cause things to change through your action than to cause them to stay the same.

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Ego
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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by Ego »

jennypenny wrote:What Brooks doesn't get is that people with a healthy take on gratitude don't play that game at all. They aren't keeping score like he implies here ...
Are you saying that those with a healthy take on gratitude act (at least sometimes) without self-interest?
jennypenny wrote:If a gift economy wanted to be more emotionally healthy, it should eliminate the score-keeping altogether.
Without score-keeping (however subtle), what motivates a person to act? I mean, a person does something to, for instance, feel-good. The anticipated good feeling is part of the score-keeping, right? At risk of being called homo-economis... the good-feeling is part of the transaction, isn't it? If not, why does a person act in the first place?
jennypenny wrote:It's not that I don't believe in gratitude. Giving thanks is a daily, deliberate exercise for me, usually during prayer. I think learning to be grateful is an important part of a person's emotional health. I just don't think it should be tied to expectations or bonds.
That sounds an awful lot like a transaction to me. Giving thanks is the commodity and emotional health is the bitcoin received. Somewhere there is a block-chain. If there is no expectation of emotional health, why are you giving thanks? A person can just be thankful. It is the act of giving that is done for some reason beyond just be-ing.
jennypenny wrote:What I'm saying is that if a person has no preconceived notions or expectations, the emotions they feel in the present will be more authentic, and the genuineness and unexpectedness of those emotions will make it easier to find and feel gratitude afterward.
Hum. No preconceived notions or expectations. Is that possible? Why would anyone do anything without expectations?

I am going to the market in a little while. Why would I go if I didn't believe it more likely than not that my favorite vendor will have a papaya and/or a pineapple?

Isn't it more reasonable (useful) to go with the expectation that the papayas will probably be green and the pineapples will probably be overripe. That way, if she held aside a ripe papaya for me, I'll be really happy. If not, I got what I expected.

I wonder if the situation you outlined above is just a more intricate transaction where authentic emotions (bitcoin) and gratitude (bitcoin) become more valuable by obscuring from oneself the fact that they are payment for doing something. In other words, the act of convincing oneself that there is no personal gain connected to an act actually makes the personal gain greater.
jennypenny wrote:The other issue I had with Brooks' definition of gratitude, and he's not alone, is that a person can only be grateful for things that are interpreted as positive. Someone who's mastered gratitude can find reasons to be grateful even during the worst periods in their life. That goes back to the humility I mentioned earlier that I think is an essential part of gratitude. If you can humble yourself enough to be grateful for simply being human and having the chance to experience everything that being human entails, you can understand true gratitude.
So, meaning can be produced by even the most negative situations, Ms. Frankl? :D I agree. I just don't want people to start inducing negative situations to produce meaning (bitcoins).

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by jennypenny »

Ego wrote: Are you saying that those with a healthy take on gratitude act (at least sometimes) without self-interest?

Without score-keeping (however subtle), what motivates a person to act? I mean, a person does something to, for instance, feel-good. The anticipated good feeling is part of the score-keeping, right? At risk of being called homo-economicus... the good-feeling is part of the transaction, isn't it? If not, why does a person act in the first place?
I would separate gratitude from a person's actions. That's why I made the distinction about acting without expectations. Gratitude comes afterward. If someone acts in a certain way to elicit an emotional response (even a good one), I would agree with you that it's a transaction and the resulting feelings aren't the kind of gratitude to which I'm referring.

If you mean that gratitude can shape a person's actions, I agree but I don't think in the way you mean. To me, gratitude (in lofty terms) only comes from external sources and upon reflection. A person can say they are 'grateful' they skipped dessert, but they can't really be grateful for their own actions. It's just positive reinforcement--skip dessert, feel good about oneself, repeat the action, feel even better, etc.

As far as the idea of a gift economy and why people act, I'm not sure it would work on a personal tit-for-tat kind of level. The only way I see it working is on a group level, almost like on the forum. We all act in a way that contributes to the group in a positive manner, but no one posts a positive response to something expecting a reciprocal positive response back from that exact member. It's more like we all contribute to the ERE forum soup in our own positive way, and then take what we need from the soup. Some contribute more, some take more, some add ingredients, some just do the stirring ... the specifics don't matter as long as a balance is struck so the soup is a good one.

ego wrote: That sounds an awful lot like a transaction to me. Giving thanks is the commodity and emotional health is the bitcoin received. Somewhere there is a block-chain. If there is no expectation of emotional health, why are you giving thanks? A person can just be thankful. It is the act of giving that is done for some reason beyond just be-ing.
I suppose I practice gratitude expecting it to improve my well-being, so in that sense you're right. To tie it back to actions, I see it like exercise. Practicing gratitude (gratituding??) is like exercising or training. It makes me stronger and healthier so that when I am out in the world I will 'perform' better.

ego wrote:No preconceived notions or expectations. Is that possible? Why would anyone do anything without expectations?

I am going to the market in a little while. Why would I go if I didn't believe it more likely than not that my favorite vendor will have a papaya and/or a pineapple?

Isn't it more reasonable (useful) to go with the expectation that the papayas will probably be green and the pineapples will probably be overripe. That way, if she held aside a ripe papaya for me, I'll be really happy. If not, I got what I expected.

I wonder if the situation you outlined above is just a more intricate transaction where authentic emotions (bitcoin) and gratitude (bitcoin) become more valuable by obscuring from oneself the fact that they are payment for doing something. In other words, the act of convincing oneself that there is no personal gain connected to an act actually makes the personal gain greater.
I can act on probability without expectation. I can plan for the probability that 2 out of 7 days it rains where I'm going on vacation, but without expecting it will rain or expecting it will be sunny. I can know that 1/2 of the time my family argues when they get together and have a plan for diffusing the situation, but without expecting that they will argue or hoping that this will be one of the times that they don't. I guess I'm defining expectation and/or anticipation in this situation as probability + emotion.

Is it possible to step back from the expectation of what items will be at the market? Look at it as working knowledge--they most likely have unripened papayas and overripe pineapples but they sometimes have other things--and leave it at that. I'd argue that it shouldn't matter which fruit they have and that you should be grateful that you have a market within walking distance that has someone working there who's kind enough to put aside something special for you occasionally. If you look at it that way, every trip to the market is a positive one.

ego wrote:So, meaning can be produced by even the most negative situations, Ms. Frankl? :D I agree. I just don't want people to start inducing negative situations to produce meaning (bitcoins).
This is where I think I might disagree with Frankl. I don't equate meaning and gratitude. I think what he was describing most of the time was gratitude, not meaning. Gratitude is easy to find if you learn how to look for it. When people equate the two, they mistakenly look for meaning in everything and then come up empty most of the time. If they can learn to be grateful instead, they can let go of the obsession over meaning and appreciate the rare and wondrous events in our lives that are meaningful.

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

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jennypenny wrote: I can act on probability without expectation. I can plan for the probability that 2 out of 7 days it rains where I'm going on vacation, but without expecting it will rain or expecting it will be sunny. I can know that 1/2 of the time my family argues when they get together and have a plan for diffusing the situation, but without expecting that they will argue or hoping that this will be one of the times that they don't. I guess I'm defining expectation and/or anticipation in this situation as probability + emotion.
Hum, I like this. I'm going to give it a try. It is probably healthier to acknowledge the likelihood of a negative occurring, which is what you do, than expecting the negative to occur, which is what I've been doing.

I wonder how much of this is actually trainable and how much is hard wired.

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by Dave »

I think the practical implications of the article are useful: with lowered expectations come fewer disappointments. This seems to be actionable advice with a good outcome. With that said, I share some of the same thoughts as JP.

I do not agree with the logic of how his conclusion is built. To start, Gratitude happens when some kindness exceeds expectations, when it is undeserved. Gratitude is a sort of laughter of the heart that comes about after some surprising kindness. That is to me an example of redefining a word to fit a meaning you want. And it is not actually true: you can have gratitude regardless of expectations. I expect my fiancé to help me cook dinner - I am still grateful for her help. I expect someone to hold an elevator door for me if I am a few steps behind - but I am still grateful they did. It really does not have anything to do with my expectations of their behavior, or a laughter of the heart. It is simply thankfulness for something that improves my situation.

Next, But people with dispositional gratitude are continually struck by the fact that they are given far more than they pay for — and are much richer than they deserve. Their families, schools and summer camps put far more into them than they give back. There’s a lot of surplus goodness in daily life that can’t be explained by the logic of equal exchange. Okay, I actually like the idea of opening your eyes to how interdependent everyone is. I have family who speak as if all of their accomplishments were achieved by them and them alone, and this is grossly naïve as to how life in modern society is. The physical, educational, political, and social systems in place are a platform we all benefit from to some extent. It is good to be cognizant of how reality is, as any form of reducing ignorance is generally good. But concluding that we are given far more than we pay back is a meaningless statement - how do you measure the value you take in vs. the value you create? Saying that we are "struck by the fact that they are given far more than they pay" sounds emotionally pleasing, but a lot of people do give back in a big way. Is he implying that if you were a person who gave back in a big way (let's use Mother Teresa and ignore any of her controversies) more than you took that you are not able to be grateful? Or did even she not give back as much as she gave in? By how much? It is silly to even get into trying to rank or order kind acts. I think what he may be trying to say that "people who are aware of how much good has been done for them are happier than those otherwise". I agree that recognition of interdependence breeds an appreciation in life, but just say that without the comments of how much we have been given vs. what we have given to others, or what we deserve as a result of our actions.

Last, If you think that human nature is good and powerful, then you go around frustrated because the perfect society has not yet been achieved. But if you go through life believing that our reason is not that great, our individual skills are not that impressive, and our goodness is severely mottled, then you’re sort of amazed life has managed to be as sweet as it is. Why do you need to take a false view of the world to be thankful? The world is neither a utopia nor hell - it just is how it is. The perfect society is nothing more than a concept, but on the other end we are not all pathetic and useless either. It seems artificial to me to assume that everyone's reason is not great, their skills are not impressive, and goodness is mottled. Being grateful should not be contingent on a distorted view of reality.

Although my comments may seem to the contrary, I overall like the message of the article. It is healthy to have reasonable expectations in life, it is beneficial to be aware of the many good things we have, and it is good to recognize our world is not a utopia (nor a hell). I just think the author was a little dramatic in getting the points across!

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by J_ »

Reading this topic with its very nuanced discussions feels like walking/talking/participating in ancient philosophy schools... I am grateful for that.

I wonder if it is possible to use "antifragility" In such a way that I gain from disorder, that I can gain from beiing confronted with hard mental things in life. For this discussion: that I can gain from a happening that is so hard against an expectation that I had.

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

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Ego wrote: I wonder how much of this is actually trainable and how much is hard wired.
I had to learn it. And then learn it again ... and again ... and again. ;)
Dave wrote:Okay, I actually like the idea of opening your eyes to how interdependent everyone is. I have family who speak as if all of their accomplishments were achieved by them and them alone, and this is grossly naïve as to how life in modern society is. The physical, educational, political, and social systems in place are a platform we all benefit from to some extent. It is good to be cognizant of how reality is, as any form of reducing ignorance is generally good.
I come down in the middle, I think. I don't subscribe to "it takes a village" but I also don't think everyone is a island. It depends on the type of support. I also don't think everyone's experience is the same within a community. Some are givers and some are takers. Some have more to give and some need more. Should those who need more should be more grateful? Or those who are more prosperous? I agree with you that Brooks' comments reinforce the notion that those who want for nothing tend to be blind to all of the reasons they should be grateful. I'm trying not to bring my faith into it, but I always think of the Beatitudes and Mark 10:25 when discussing gratitude. Those who can feel gratitude even when they are at their lowest are the lucky ones.
J_ wrote:I wonder if it is possible to use "antifragility" In such a way that I gain from disorder, that I can gain from beiing confronted with hard mental things in life. For this discussion: that I can gain from a happening that is so hard against an expectation that I had.
Gratitude can ease your pain and give you perspective. You can be grateful for the pain because it means that you're caring and loving enough to be able to feel tremendous loss. You can be grateful for any support you've received. You can be grateful for other areas of your life that are strong (like health or financial well-being). It's not easy, and sometimes you'll express your gratitude without really meaning it, but eventually true gratitude will emerge. "Fake it 'til you make it."

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

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Ego wrote:I wonder how much of this is actually trainable and how much is hard wired.
Yeah, me too.

In our household, I try to "act on probability" for every reasonable possibility (without bothering much about probability... is this just acting?), whereas G tries to pick the single most likely result and plan for that.

This produces an amusing array of results, especially during our travels.

Me: "You didn't pack the rain gear because of what Google's forecast said?!" Him: "It's usually accurate." Me: "Yeah, for the current day! How often do you check the weather a week out when we're at home?"

Him: "You brought swimsuits on a fall camping trip?! It's forty degrees!" Me: "But what if we run into a problem and we end up at a hotel with an indoor pool?" Him: "Wishful much?"

Re gratitude, I wish I were more focused on, and grateful for, the littler pleasant things. Seems like my focus/prayer is on the most irritating issues most of the time.

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by jennypenny »

WaPo published another aritcle on religion and happiness ... Want ‘sustained happiness’? Get religion, study suggests

“The church appears to play a very important social role in keeping depressing at bay and also as a coping mechanism during periods of illness in later life,” ... “It is not clear to us how much this is about religion per se, or whether it may be about the sense of belonging and not being socially isolated.”

Researchers looked at four areas: 1) volunteering or working with a charity; 2) taking educational courses; 3) participating in religious organizations; 4) participating in a political or community organization. Of the four, participating in a religious organization was the only social activity associated with sustained happiness, researchers found.



I agree with the important social role religious organizations play, but other organizations can do the same thing. Yet in study after study, religion is shown to have a much bigger influence on happiness. One of the differences I see between religion and the other areas in this particular study is the element of gratitude and humility that is a part of most organized religions. It made me think of this thread. Maybe one of the keys to sustained happiness is an 'attitude of gratitude' as they say, and obviously religion isn't necessary for that.

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Re: Managing Expectations & Gratitude

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Maybe it has something to do with a narrow definition of happiness? I clearly remember one occasion when I was attending a very large used book sale in the same building that was also hosting a group of charismatic Christians. Everybody was milling about fairly randomly, but it was quite easy to differentiate between the members of the book dealer mob and the church-goers because they church-goers looked so HAPPY!!! and tidy and the book dealers looked so much more grouchy and disheveled. I could have been in either group since I generally look happy and disheveled. I do not have a gratitude practice and I do not practice a religion. I just usually wake up in a good mood because I live in a world that has coffee, books, swimming pools, fresh tomato on rye sandwiches, colored pencils, smart funny little kids who call me "Miss", dominant man-candy that wants to play, music-for-dancing and new-old and new-new things every day!!! (IOW, religion is a form of mania, but not the only one.)

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