Living with Careerist

[7Wannabe5]

@vexed87: Your reply was very helpful, because now I am feeling angry and focused, because it is clear that my problem is only half due to being a generalist. It is easier for you to exert your boundaries because you are a man.

[Riggerjack]

I seem to be failing to communicate. Let me try storytelling as a means...

I grew up with divorced parents, like most everyone else. Parents split when I was 4, then remarried, each other. That lasted a year. Then married and divorced other people a few times as I grew up. Everyone I knew who had been married, either divorced, and hated their former spouse, or was unhappily still married, and hated their spouse. I've seen every variation, still so angry, can't talk about ex, open marriages, staying together for the kids, messing with kids to spite ex, blah, blah.

Needless to say, I was pretty adamant that I would never be married, never have kids, and I made that absolutely clear on first dates.

That story slowly started to change. I was with my best friend visiting his sister's family, back in what I consider my hometown. While his brother in-law (T) is showing us his shop/garage and cool car restoration project, his 2.5 year old daughter is running around, poking into everything. Looking for attention and just in general, being 2.5.

T is talking, and will occasionally break off mid sentence, and correct the child, then go back talking to us. This went on for maybe 45 minutes. Now T and I went to the same school for a year, but we were never friends, and he was a former Jarhead, I a former soldier, so of course there's a bit of banter, but I'm not carrying the conversation. I had time to really watch what he was doing. Later, we talked to T and his wife, and as all young parents, they loved talking about the kids. And how they ran the house. And their child rearing strategies.

This was all new material for me. Growing up, I had seen the garage scene many times, always ending in exasperated parent shouting at child, or ignoring the child until she hurt herself, often followed by shouting at child. Parenting strategy? Isn't that an oxymoron? Parenting is surviving 18 years doing penance for not using a condom.

This was a real eye opener for me. There is an entire skillset of parenting I had never seen.

A few years later, I started seeing more healthy marriages. With the same realization. There are so many ways happy couples behave, that I had never seen before.

I don't know what you know, or don't. I don't know what you need to learn to make a happy long term relationship work. All I know is how I learned, by careful observation of couples who have the kind of relationship I wanted. That is what I recommend you try.

[Lucky C]

FWIW, I am an INTP married to an ESFJ and it's pretty much an ideal relationship. Like if you applied the Wheaton scale to relationships we'd be pretty high up, with most people would find ours unrealistic (they think they would never find such a compatible and sickeningly sweet mate) and others finding us inspirational. This is not to brag but to say that the INTP/ESFJ opposite dynamic works, at least in some relationships. Please Understand Me mentions this combo working well, but states that they aren't common enough to have any good research behind them.

However when DW and I have taken the personality tests, we have not been extreme in our INTP/ESFJ-ness. Much closer to 60%/40% on those scales than say 90%/10%. This leads me to think that becoming more balanced in these personality dimensions can be more helpful to relationships in general. So if you're on the extreme end of some personality traits, should you embrace your extremeness so that you have unique strengths, or should you strive to become more well-rounded to make it easier to have stronger relationships with a wide variety of people? I tend toward wanting to get along with everyone, which may have factored into why I've become more of an intp than an INTP.

How many personality conflicts are due to you being slightly on the opposite side of the personality dimension, vs. conflicts due to being at an extreme end? If someone is having a lot of relationship problems arising from an extreme personality trait, should they focus their efforts on trying to change, or on finding someone more compatible with that trait? The path of least resistance to solve that problem will depend on the person's particular situation.

[7Wannabe5]

A few years later, I started seeing more healthy marriages. With the same realization. There are so many ways happy couples behave, that I had never seen before.

I don't know what you know, or don't. I don't know what you need to learn to make a happy long term relationship work. All I know is how I learned, by careful observation of couples who have the kind of relationship I wanted. That is what I recommend you try.

Gotcha. I have also observed happy couples and the way they behave, and the conclusion I have come to is that the way to form a happy couple is to take two happy individuals and put them together. I hold the belief, perhaps delusional, that I am a pretty happy individual. So, the question becomes why do I persist in entering into relationships with men who are not happy individuals? Since I am also not highly inclined towards long bouts of martyrdom or utter foolishness, the answer must be that I am getting something other than direct transfer of happiness-inducing behavior out of the deal.

In overly simplistic terms, what I have developed the habit of doing is trading some portion of my San Diego temperament to some pretty damn miserable, depressive, stressed-out, one-incident-away-from-being-placed-in-anger-management-program-against-will individuals for some combination of sex, money and/or muscle. IMO, this is not necessarily a "bad" trade, as long as both partners to the trade are self-aware and openly acknowledging the terms of contract. For instance, I have said "You are using me as a human emotional support animal." to my current BF, and his response was "Oh, yeah. Absolutely. No doubt. I am way calmer when you are around."

I am also good with colicky babies. But, when I am caring for a colicky baby, I have to remember that it is important for me to sometimes put the baby in a crib and just let it cry, or hand it off to somebody else, so that I can take some time to care for myself; relax, re-hydrate, get some exercise, etc., so that I can maintain my good-humor or ability to respond rather than react.

When I am interacting with another intelligent, self-aware adult, I have to clearly communicate that the "price" I charge in relationship contract for tolerating an incident of Type A adult male version of colic is not just "you will be apologizing and picking up the tab for dinner" but also "and you will also be paying this other bill for me, because I will be spending tomorrow lying on the beach recovering, rather than getting paid to teach a classroom full of 6th grade versions of you.", BUT "Slight discount may be available, IF you can lower the cortisol 3 notches, thereby freeing up some of that entrapped testosterone, and put some of that aggression to better use."

One of the thing I like about most men; a way in which I believe they are easier to deal with than most members of my own gender, is that they are remarkably tending towards preferring overt contract. I have to constantly remind myself that this is the case and not be shy about making my terms, or what needs to be done/offered to make things right/fair, very clear. I mean, I would be embarrassed to have to admit that I was so hard-to-get-along-with that I am required to pay cash penalty to maintain a relationship, but men don't seem to care.

[Dragline]

@RJ -- thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds like the beginnings of a memoir that will rival "Hillbilly Elegy." And truly good "tag-team parenting" is a wonder to behold (and even better to participate in).

@7w5 I can't help feeling that you would be better off not living with the men you are attracted to, but simply having short, intense interludes or "events" with them and then retreating to your gardens to recharge. 24/7 just seems totally unnecessary and counter-productive in your case.

[7Wannabe5]

@Dragline: Agree. I am not the one making the bid for more time together. So, it is a matter of doing a better job of establishing my boundaries, and not being such a round-heeled, soft-touch. I have very little difficulty with avoiding the company of men I do not find attractive, so it has to be something more along the line of telling myself "Do not even go into the donut store unless you plan on eating a donut. Do not even drive down the street the donut store is on unless you plan on eating a donut."

This is going to sound ridiculous, but since I know that even "I have to work." can eventually be countered with "You don't have to work. I have plenty of money.", and anything along the lines of "I am studying robotics online" may not be respected, my hare-brained scheme of the moment is that I told him I am going to try to look as good as Christie Brinkley in a bikini by the end of the summer. That way I can say "I am going to be at my garden hauling around wood chips for the next couple days for my look-great-in-a-bikini plan." and it will be like when somebody in an old school sci-fi movie short-circuits a robot-overlord with conflicting code inputs.

[tommytebco]

First: I love your posts and follow religiously!!
Second: Out of the blue came the definition from a masters degree course: "Control is forcing events to comply with the plan"
I suppose one would ask next "Whose plan??"

You seem to do a good job of sticking to your plan and "come along if you want." to the lovers.

[7Wannabe5]

Lucky C said: However when DW and I have taken the personality tests, we have not been extreme in our INTP/ESFJ-ness. Much closer to 60%/40% on those scales than say 90%/10%. This leads me to think that becoming more balanced in these personality dimensions can be more helpful to relationships in general. So if you're on the extreme end of some personality traits, should you embrace your extremeness so that you have unique strengths, or should you strive to become more well-rounded to make it easier to have stronger relationships with a wide variety of people? I tend toward wanting to get along with everyone, which may have factored into why I've become more of an intp than an INTP.

Well, given my moniker, I obviously believe that personality tests should be used as tool towards growth rather than excuse for sticking in comfortable rut. The direction of growth for an ENTP is supposed to be towards INTJ, but maybe I should work on being more S as well as more J since S is where I am seriously lacking. I am already very balanced in my E/I. I can at least dimly grok how to be more J than P, and how that would help me better achieve mastery and goal completion, and I cycle out of T into F at least 3 days every month. The only exercise I can think of for being more S than N is a trick I learned for decorating a room. You put your hands together to create a little circle and then you narrow your focus to just that little bit of the room. Doing this kind of makes you more like the kind of person who can't help noticing a fingerprint on a switch-plate.

Anyways, my take on me is that I am 80% very good universal mixer, but 20% serious off-curve niche dweller, which is probably why I am great at dating but not so good at long run. I shouldn't be so hard on my BF. He really is a bit of a sweet-heart when he isn't laying on the horn, flashing finger, and then taking me along on a carnival ride u-turn.

tommytebco said: First: I love your posts and follow religiously!!
Second: Out of the blue came the definition from a masters degree course: "Control is forcing events to comply with the plan"
I suppose one would ask next "Whose plan??"

You seem to do a good job of sticking to your plan and "come along if you want." to the lovers.

Thanks : ) I am going to be so disappointed if I don't get to see how my project turns out when it is finished. I can't allow myself to be distracted by plans of other(s.)

[7Wannabe5]

Well, I am helping my BF move into his new place, and successfully evading spending too much time there myself. He told me that I am almost the perfect girlfriend except sometimes I chew too loudly, snore, and I often forget where the car is parked. Sounds to me like somebody volunteering to throw down for the co-pay/deductible on deviated septum procedure.

I realize that part of my fretting about this issue is that I have been reluctant to admit that I have finally aged/lapsed into the phase of life where what I want/need is a "Grandma's boyfriend", which is somebody you don't have to squabble with about whether it is better to let herbs grow between the path stones in the garden vs. whacking them clear, because you maintain your own garden domains, but you can count on to run to the store to pick up some extra whipping cream for the pies at Thanksgiving.

[7Wannabe5]

Well, I did a bad thing that I vowed to never, ever, ever do again for at least 3 very good reasons. I administered the very short version of the MBTI to my BF. Results: ESFJ. I took it again myself and tested INTP rather than ENTP this time. I'm always very borderline E/I, so this is likely due to fact that I am not fit to be seen by other humans and can not go out in the sunshine due to temporary facial paralysis.

So, pretty much our relationship is doomed, unless we are both much higher functioning than average. I have my doubts. I tend to get worn out when often in the company of individuals who are alert to their environment in the moment and choose to assertively react to these inputs. For instance, traffic is generally not much of a noticed-problem for me unless I am in the passenger seat of a car being driven by somebody for whom traffic is a problem. I might be quietly, happily thinking about how many acres of flint corn are necessary to support one halfway decent local theater performance of "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" and then right when I am about ready to convert kilocalories into watt-hours, the very loud blaring of a horn and a deep voice exclaiming something like "Did you see what that m*thah-f*ckah did? #$!!%&**?" intrudes, and I am forced to re-inhabit my body as it is slammed against the door with some force.

[Riggerjack]

So... You know what doesn't work. And yet you still don't exclude it.

Maybe you should just choose shorter relationships, as a goal.

Everyone can be nice for a few weeks/months. Just stop forgiving transgressions. Leave at the first sign of irritability. You have the time, and the opportunity. Don't waste it repeating patterns that make you unhappy.

Or, you could be less passive in selecting mates. The world is full of attractive potential mates. So stop settling for merely attractive and interested.

Or not. Your life.

[Ego]

I administered the very short version of the MBTI to my BF. Results: ESFJ. I took it again myself and tested INTP rather than ENTP this time.

So, pretty much our relationship is doomed....

I once knew a girl who refused to date guys with a particular zodiac sign for similar reasons. The more I see how people use Myers-Briggs, the more I realize it is astrology for smart people.

[Riggerjack]

The more I know about people, the better I feel about excluding most of them. <5% are worth knowing at all.

Most people should be more selective in choosing mates, but when patterns emerge, they should at least consider acting on that.

[7Wannabe5]

Maybe you should just choose shorter relationships, as a goal.

Everyone can be nice for a few weeks/months. Just stop forgiving transgressions. Leave at the first sign of irritability. You have the time, and the opportunity. Don't waste it repeating patterns that make you unhappy.

Yes, I have considered this as an option. Kind of what I was hoping to accomplish with adopting the practice of polyamory. My recent re-read of "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World" got me thinking about this again because of the section where Harry Browne takes you step by step through being able to stomach breaking partnerships/contracts or ending relationships with other people. The problem with polyamory is that it left me with even more contracts which I eventually either wanted to end or alter with request of significant change of terms.

I think maybe my ideal would be relationships contracts which would give either party the option of no-further-grief exit or clear-cut continuance/renegotiation of terms every year. Actually, one of the reasons I am not too fidgety in my current relationship is that I know he might take an overseas assignment next year. So, that offers me the potential possibilities of continuing as is, easy out ending, or maybe traveling with him. Dunno. He has apologized, but he yelled at me about a trivial matter while I am feeling quite lousy because my face is paralyzed, and my immediate reaction was "I am going to call Uber and leave your azz this very minute. Eat my dust, Mr. I-don't-like-to-internalize-my-stress." Only reason I didn't do it is that I have trained myself to respond rather than react. My response was that after a period in which I was too angry to speak to him, I said "I am angry. I found your behavior very rude. You are a free person, so you can behave as you wish, but there will be a price you will pay in relationship with me if you choose to continue to behave in such a manner."

OTOH, the inherent problem I have experienced with the practice of serial monogamy is that I am actually kind of developing an odd emotional response to the ease with which I am able to slip into the role of girlfriend with a new man. Like I might be shopping at the grocery store with my BF, and I leave him to go down an aisle to grab some mustard, and he might turn into my ex-husband, or the man I was dating 4 years ago, or the man I was madly in love with 7 years ago. Kind of like if you were ever with your parent in a crowded store when you were a child, and you reached up to take his hand, and then suddenly looked up and realized that you were mistaken and had grasped the hand of a stranger, or if you ever fell asleep on a bus or a train and missed your station, and then woke up who knows where. I think "disoriented" is the word I am looking for.

@Ego: I was obviously over-stating my reliance on MBTI -based compatibility with my choice of the word "doomed." MBTI is a weak descriptive model of personality types. Astrology is an idiotic determinant model of personality types. I don't believe that personality type is set-in-stone pre-determined at birth. I do believe that people have unique personalities all their own, but some qualities are likely to be associated and any quality can be categorized. The most interesting aspect of the model is the question of how to stretch or transcend from where you find yourself now. I think behavioral psychology or broadening of perspective can aid this process, but there is a limit to personal growth work which is death, so there is some benefit to be derived in determining in which way you might best experience most improvement. For instance, rule of thumb for INTJ would generally be to move from mastery into leadership by stretching ability to move fluidly from I to E. Viewed from vice-swap perspective, better functioning for ENTP can be accomplished by moving from gluttony to greed. It can be difficult to call chicken or egg on whether a person is absent-minded because they read too much, or whether they read too much because they are, or wish to be, absent-minded.

[Riggerjack]

Once again, I disagree.

For instance, rule of thumb for INTJ would generally be to move from mastery into leadership by stretching ability to move fluidly from I to E.

I've been a leader, professionally. I found it stressful, and dishonest. Doing leadership well is best described as manipulating emotions strategically. There is no way to do it well without this manipulation, and I found it profoundly unsatisfying.

This could be because I am uncomfortable thinking of myself as an evil overlord, but have evil overlord proclivities. Maybe this is more about me than INTJs.

It can be difficult to call chicken or egg on whether a person is absent-minded because they read too much, or whether they read too much because they are, or wish to be, absent-minded.

Take this with a grain of salt, I can only cite my own experience. I used to be very absent minded. I am very good at motivated forgetfulness.

However, over the last 15 years, this has gone away. Not that I worked on it. But that's about the time a started getting more active in remaking my live to align with my desires. When I started filtering out the irritations and the people that brought them. When I started being active in pushing toward what I wanted, rather than what I could put up with.

For me, being absent minded was a side effect of trying to separate myself, from my life.

Life is too short to live like that.

SOLVE problems, rather than use bailing wire and duct tape to "fix" problems. And who you allow into your life is the primary filter for what problems are introduced into your life.

Or maybe that's just me...

[7Wannabe5]

@Riggerjack: I didn't invent that bit about INTJ most effective direction of growth being towards E. May or may not have any basis in reality. I usually find myself in positions of leadership when my enthusiasm runs out ahead of my commitment, so I've learned to be more cautious because I hate it when other people are disappointed because I'm not really up for maintaining the lead for the long haul. I never get that evil overlord feeling you are describing. Probably because I never gain or seek that much control over the process, and my enthusiastic emotions are sincere in the moment. The bad feeling I get is like when you realize you shouldn't have adopted 3 puppies, and then you have to take 2 back to the pound.

SOLVE problems, rather than use bailing wire and duct tape to "fix" problems. And who you allow into your life is the primary filter for what problems are introduced into your life.

Shall ponder. I was trying to think about whether I would send 95% of other people to go live on some very nice other planets if I had the power. I guess I would do it for environmental reasons, but most people have something of value to offer in relationship, if the relationship is well-bounded. For instance, there might be some person I would not want anything else to do with in any way, but they sure played a mean trombone. Or there might be another person who was in many ways a solid citizen, salt-of-the-earth, person you hope lives next door if your chimney starts on fire, but if I had to sit next to them on a bus ride engaged in conversation for 3 hours I would feign sleep and/or coma. Etc. etc. etc. I don't know how to make myself that picky. I even enjoy drinking coffee from vending machines sometimes, and there are also people who are not really good but still good sometimes like vending machine coffee.

[Riggerjack]

Shall ponder. I was trying to think about whether I would send 95% of other people to go live on some very nice other planets if I had the power.

Well, in my case, it is me who is leaving. I live on 10 acres on an island, nobody has to leave for my piece of mind. This just means I don't engage strangers or coworkers without reason. A sacrifice nobody has objected to.

So for people to introduce themselves and their problems to me, pretty much requires an appointment. They live their lives as happily as they can, and I try not to point out how they could do better.

You, aren't so lucky.

[bryan]

2) Almost all the men with whom I have formed significant relationship have been middle-child, first son, and sandwiched between two sisters. Therefore, according to sibling-relationship-therapy theory, since I am the first born of 4 sisters, I tend towards being comfortable in the oldest sister role, but I have difficulty with the lack of co-operation etc. many males exhibit, due to no experience with brothers. So, still semi-doomed to repeat pattern.

Well, at least for the middle-child sandwiched by sisters guy, I think the solution is to get with a girl that is the youngest child with older sisters. Sorry it's not useful from your perspective

I haven't read much about your friendly relationships with other folks (especially women), maybe you need less romance and more social network? I understand female friendships may not be as pleasurable/easy as w/ males, but it just means you need to meet the right women.

"Grandma's boyfriend" sounds nice, but I suppose you didn't finish the description? Like it sounds like a normal relationship which doesn't preclude the BF from being a hell of a man w/ some fire where it counts.

[7Wannabe5]

You, aren't so lucky.

I haven't read much about your friendly relationships with other folks (especially women), maybe you need less romance and more social network? I understand female friendships may not be as pleasurable/easy as w/ males, but it just means you need to meet the right women.

lol- I guess great minds think alike, because when I came to the realization yesterday that I was "talking" about my fight with my BF with Riggerjack, I wandered out into the living room and said to my sister "I really need to find a tough female friend, someone like KashDoll, who will tell me to stop being such a whiny bitch." She replied, "I would say that to you, but your face is paralyzed, so you look too pathetic."

One of the benefits of my part-time substitute teaching gig is that it gives me the opportunity to engage in some chit-chat sociability with female peers. My water aerobics class also served this purpose, and I miss it. I generally tend towards being very casual with most of my female friendships, dropping in and out of book groups, and PTO ballet mother circles with ease. A few of my more intimate friendships with other females, females who actively pursued friendship with me, became sexualized in a variety of ways, so I have a level of leery if/when, for instance, another female keeps asking me to come horse-back riding or go to a baseball game or the gym or have a pajama party and she will perm my hair (I hate to reinforce stereotype, but true story of my life being that every time another female has blatantly hit on me she has also been an uber-jock.) I'm bi-flexible, but I never fall in love with other women, and I don't appreciate the aesthetic of breasts and muscles on the same person (of either gender, muscle and eye-liner, otoh, I can sometimes go for.) Also, I don't enjoy drinking very much, or hanging out with people who are drinking when I am not, so that generally limits my pack sociability.

"Grandma's boyfriend" sounds nice, but I suppose you didn't finish the description? Like it sounds like a normal relationship which doesn't preclude the BF from being a hell of a man w/ some fire where it counts.

Aaaargh. Unfortunately, you have hit the nail on the head. I like my coffee dark and strong, with sugar and cream available when I want it. The acid to brew strength is just not cutting it in this relationship. I'm just hanging on because there is always an open box of free Oreos on the counter, and the barista's patter is often amusing. But getting out clean would require the female equivalent of telling a girl "I am dumping you because you are too fat.", and I am afraid of the "price" to be paid if I do that.

[Eureka]

Back to OP

I am also considering whether offering to chip in for rent would be psychologically helpful even if token gesture?

I would say on the contrary. If he has money enough and would pay all costs anyway, chipping in is a waste of money. You have your place, he has his place.

Even if you chip, it is his place and he can ask you to leave anytime. Unless you want cohabitation for real of course, but then you should rather buy the place together, even if your share will be only a few percent.

If you rent a specific room in the house or a part of the garden that you can use for whatever you decide to (like an outlet for second hand books or permaculture gardening or to meet with secret friends or do artwork or whatever) then an exchange of rent money might be purposeful. If not, not.

At least this is how I would act in the situation you describe.