Living with Careerist

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
7Wannabe5
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:20 am

@vexed87: Your reply was very helpful, because now I am feeling angry and focused, because it is clear that my problem is only half due to being a generalist. It is easier for you to exert your boundaries because you are a man.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by Riggerjack » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:31 am

I seem to be failing to communicate. Let me try storytelling as a means...

I grew up with divorced parents, like most everyone else. Parents split when I was 4, then remarried, each other. That lasted a year. Then married and divorced other people a few times as I grew up. Everyone I knew who had been married, either divorced, and hated their former spouse, or was unhappily still married, and hated their spouse. I've seen every variation, still so angry, can't talk about ex, open marriages, staying together for the kids, messing with kids to spite ex, blah, blah.

Needless to say, I was pretty adamant that I would never be married, never have kids, and I made that absolutely clear on first dates.

That story slowly started to change. I was with my best friend visiting his sister's family, back in what I consider my hometown. While his brother in-law (T) is showing us his shop/garage and cool car restoration project, his 2.5 year old daughter is running around, poking into everything. Looking for attention and just in general, being 2.5.

T is talking, and will occasionally break off mid sentence, and correct the child, then go back talking to us. This went on for maybe 45 minutes. Now T and I went to the same school for a year, but we were never friends, and he was a former Jarhead, I a former soldier, so of course there's a bit of banter, but I'm not carrying the conversation. I had time to really watch what he was doing. Later, we talked to T and his wife, and as all young parents, they loved talking about the kids. And how they ran the house. And their child rearing strategies.

This was all new material for me. Growing up, I had seen the garage scene many times, always ending in exasperated parent shouting at child, or ignoring the child until she hurt herself, often followed by shouting at child. Parenting strategy? Isn't that an oxymoron? Parenting is surviving 18 years doing penance for not using a condom.

This was a real eye opener for me. There is an entire skillset of parenting I had never seen.

A few years later, I started seeing more healthy marriages. With the same realization. There are so many ways happy couples behave, that I had never seen before.

I don't know what you know, or don't. I don't know what you need to learn to make a happy long term relationship work. All I know is how I learned, by careful observation of couples who have the kind of relationship I wanted. That is what I recommend you try.

Lucky C
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by Lucky C » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:56 am

FWIW, I am an INTP married to an ESFJ and it's pretty much an ideal relationship. Like if you applied the Wheaton scale to relationships we'd be pretty high up, with most people would find ours unrealistic (they think they would never find such a compatible and sickeningly sweet mate) and others finding us inspirational. This is not to brag but to say that the INTP/ESFJ opposite dynamic works, at least in some relationships. Please Understand Me mentions this combo working well, but states that they aren't common enough to have any good research behind them.

However when DW and I have taken the personality tests, we have not been extreme in our INTP/ESFJ-ness. Much closer to 60%/40% on those scales than say 90%/10%. This leads me to think that becoming more balanced in these personality dimensions can be more helpful to relationships in general. So if you're on the extreme end of some personality traits, should you embrace your extremeness so that you have unique strengths, or should you strive to become more well-rounded to make it easier to have stronger relationships with a wide variety of people? I tend toward wanting to get along with everyone, which may have factored into why I've become more of an intp than an INTP.

How many personality conflicts are due to you being slightly on the opposite side of the personality dimension, vs. conflicts due to being at an extreme end? If someone is having a lot of relationship problems arising from an extreme personality trait, should they focus their efforts on trying to change, or on finding someone more compatible with that trait? The path of least resistance to solve that problem will depend on the person's particular situation.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:57 pm

A few years later, I started seeing more healthy marriages. With the same realization. There are so many ways happy couples behave, that I had never seen before.

I don't know what you know, or don't. I don't know what you need to learn to make a happy long term relationship work. All I know is how I learned, by careful observation of couples who have the kind of relationship I wanted. That is what I recommend you try.
Gotcha. I have also observed happy couples and the way they behave, and the conclusion I have come to is that the way to form a happy couple is to take two happy individuals and put them together. I hold the belief, perhaps delusional, that I am a pretty happy individual. So, the question becomes why do I persist in entering into relationships with men who are not happy individuals? Since I am also not highly inclined towards long bouts of martyrdom or utter foolishness, the answer must be that I am getting something other than direct transfer of happiness-inducing behavior out of the deal.

In overly simplistic terms, what I have developed the habit of doing is trading some portion of my San Diego temperament to some pretty damn miserable, depressive, stressed-out, one-incident-away-from-being-placed-in-anger-management-program-against-will individuals for some combination of sex, money and/or muscle. IMO, this is not necessarily a "bad" trade, as long as both partners to the trade are self-aware and openly acknowledging the terms of contract. For instance, I have said "You are using me as a human emotional support animal." to my current BF, and his response was "Oh, yeah. Absolutely. No doubt. I am way calmer when you are around."

I am also good with colicky babies. But, when I am caring for a colicky baby, I have to remember that it is important for me to sometimes put the baby in a crib and just let it cry, or hand it off to somebody else, so that I can take some time to care for myself; relax, re-hydrate, get some exercise, etc., so that I can maintain my good-humor or ability to respond rather than react.

When I am interacting with another intelligent, self-aware adult, I have to clearly communicate that the "price" I charge in relationship contract for tolerating an incident of Type A adult male version of colic is not just "you will be apologizing and picking up the tab for dinner" but also "and you will also be paying this other bill for me, because I will be spending tomorrow lying on the beach recovering, rather than getting paid to teach a classroom full of 6th grade versions of you.", BUT "Slight discount may be available, IF you can lower the cortisol 3 notches, thereby freeing up some of that entrapped testosterone, and put some of that aggression to better use."

One of the thing I like about most men; a way in which I believe they are easier to deal with than most members of my own gender, is that they are remarkably tending towards preferring overt contract. I have to constantly remind myself that this is the case and not be shy about making my terms, or what needs to be done/offered to make things right/fair, very clear. I mean, I would be embarrassed to have to admit that I was so hard-to-get-along-with that I am required to pay cash penalty to maintain a relationship, but men don't seem to care.

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Dragline
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by Dragline » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:33 pm

@RJ -- thanks for sharing your experience. It sounds like the beginnings of a memoir that will rival "Hillbilly Elegy." And truly good "tag-team parenting" is a wonder to behold (and even better to participate in).

@7w5 I can't help feeling that you would be better off not living with the men you are attracted to, but simply having short, intense interludes or "events" with them and then retreating to your gardens to recharge. 24/7 just seems totally unnecessary and counter-productive in your case.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:08 am

@Dragline: Agree. I am not the one making the bid for more time together. So, it is a matter of doing a better job of establishing my boundaries, and not being such a round-heeled, soft-touch. I have very little difficulty with avoiding the company of men I do not find attractive, so it has to be something more along the line of telling myself "Do not even go into the donut store unless you plan on eating a donut. Do not even drive down the street the donut store is on unless you plan on eating a donut."

This is going to sound ridiculous, but since I know that even "I have to work." can eventually be countered with "You don't have to work. I have plenty of money.", and anything along the lines of "I am studying robotics online" may not be respected, my hare-brained scheme of the moment is that I told him I am going to try to look as good as Christie Brinkley in a bikini by the end of the summer. That way I can say "I am going to be at my garden hauling around wood chips for the next couple days for my look-great-in-a-bikini plan." and it will be like when somebody in an old school sci-fi movie short-circuits a robot-overlord with conflicting code inputs.

tommytebco
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by tommytebco » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:54 am

First: I love your posts and follow religiously!!
Second: Out of the blue came the definition from a masters degree course: "Control is forcing events to comply with the plan"
I suppose one would ask next "Whose plan??"

You seem to do a good job of sticking to your plan and "come along if you want." to the lovers.

7Wannabe5
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Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Living with Careerist

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:59 pm

Lucky C said: However when DW and I have taken the personality tests, we have not been extreme in our INTP/ESFJ-ness. Much closer to 60%/40% on those scales than say 90%/10%. This leads me to think that becoming more balanced in these personality dimensions can be more helpful to relationships in general. So if you're on the extreme end of some personality traits, should you embrace your extremeness so that you have unique strengths, or should you strive to become more well-rounded to make it easier to have stronger relationships with a wide variety of people? I tend toward wanting to get along with everyone, which may have factored into why I've become more of an intp than an INTP.
Well, given my moniker, I obviously believe that personality tests should be used as tool towards growth rather than excuse for sticking in comfortable rut. The direction of growth for an ENTP is supposed to be towards INTJ, but maybe I should work on being more S as well as more J since S is where I am seriously lacking. I am already very balanced in my E/I. I can at least dimly grok how to be more J than P, and how that would help me better achieve mastery and goal completion, and I cycle out of T into F at least 3 days every month. The only exercise I can think of for being more S than N is a trick I learned for decorating a room. You put your hands together to create a little circle and then you narrow your focus to just that little bit of the room. Doing this kind of makes you more like the kind of person who can't help noticing a fingerprint on a switch-plate.

Anyways, my take on me is that I am 80% very good universal mixer, but 20% serious off-curve niche dweller, which is probably why I am great at dating but not so good at long run. I shouldn't be so hard on my BF. He really is a bit of a sweet-heart when he isn't laying on the horn, flashing finger, and then taking me along on a carnival ride u-turn.
tommytebco said: First: I love your posts and follow religiously!!
Second: Out of the blue came the definition from a masters degree course: "Control is forcing events to comply with the plan"
I suppose one would ask next "Whose plan??"

You seem to do a good job of sticking to your plan and "come along if you want." to the lovers.
Thanks : ) I am going to be so disappointed if I don't get to see how my project turns out when it is finished. I can't allow myself to be distracted by plans of other(s.)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Living with Careerist

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:42 pm

Well, I am helping my BF move into his new place, and successfully evading spending too much time there myself. He told me that I am almost the perfect girlfriend except sometimes I chew too loudly, snore, and I often forget where the car is parked. Sounds to me like somebody volunteering to throw down for the co-pay/deductible on deviated septum procedure.

I realize that part of my fretting about this issue is that I have been reluctant to admit that I have finally aged/lapsed into the phase of life where what I want/need is a "Grandma's boyfriend", which is somebody you don't have to squabble with about whether it is better to let herbs grow between the path stones in the garden vs. whacking them clear, because you maintain your own garden domains, but you can count on to run to the store to pick up some extra whipping cream for the pies at Thanksgiving.

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