I'm currently housesitting in Belfast for the craic. I'm spending my time with wifey exploring nature (great time of year), ancient Irish things, and local markets. My mother, who has lived in the same spot in Brisbane, Australia since 1972, called on Watsapp and asked:
Don't you get bored, not really doing anything?
Naturally I was all up in arms, and explained we spend our time doing things we enjoy.
But some people like aspects of their work...
This, I pointed out, was a failure of imagination. Yes some people enjoy parts of their jobs.... I only do things I enjoy, and have for the 2 years since I pulled the pin from work.
Silence from Brisbane.
Anyway, I enjoy reading about other people's family experience. I thought I would share this little exchange....
Bored
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IlliniDave
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Re: Bored
I don't think enjoying one's occupation on balance is a failure of imagination. It's often a triumph of imagination, or at least of perspective. I also question the assertion that one can go around just doing only the things one enjoys without interruption. I hate swabbing out toilets and many similar chores not related to my occupation, but I dislike living in filth enough that I do them anyway. I think the best a person can do is tip the balance towards more engaging activities (perhaps barring being wealthy enough to live like nobility).
I guess I'm one of those strange people that enjoy, or at least don't dislike, my job. It was an acquired outlook. Don't get me wrong, I look forward to the time in the next few years where I will leave behind the full-time professional gig, but I don't anticipate that future phase of my life being superior to my life now, it's just a next step.
I would agree with the premise that being bored in the absence of a full-time paid occupation could be a failure of imagination, or at least the presence of a certain amount of ignorance.
I have an aunt who recently retired from the faculty of a well-known private university. In the months leading up to her parting she repeatedly expressed concern about what she would do to avoid being bored. She's the type of person who you wouldn't spend an hour with and say, "Now there's a creative/imaginative soul." Yet she moved halfway across the country and transitioned to retirement without a hitch. Interacting with her through this process over the last several years has caused me to contemplate things like: "Is happiness a matter of doing the things you enjoy, or enjoying the things you do?" Seems like a classic chicken/egg question. I haven't yet learned to enjoy swabbing my toilet, but I have taught myself to extract more contentment, if not outright happiness, from the mundane corners of my present life.
I guess I'm one of those strange people that enjoy, or at least don't dislike, my job. It was an acquired outlook. Don't get me wrong, I look forward to the time in the next few years where I will leave behind the full-time professional gig, but I don't anticipate that future phase of my life being superior to my life now, it's just a next step.
I would agree with the premise that being bored in the absence of a full-time paid occupation could be a failure of imagination, or at least the presence of a certain amount of ignorance.
I have an aunt who recently retired from the faculty of a well-known private university. In the months leading up to her parting she repeatedly expressed concern about what she would do to avoid being bored. She's the type of person who you wouldn't spend an hour with and say, "Now there's a creative/imaginative soul." Yet she moved halfway across the country and transitioned to retirement without a hitch. Interacting with her through this process over the last several years has caused me to contemplate things like: "Is happiness a matter of doing the things you enjoy, or enjoying the things you do?" Seems like a classic chicken/egg question. I haven't yet learned to enjoy swabbing my toilet, but I have taught myself to extract more contentment, if not outright happiness, from the mundane corners of my present life.
Re: Bored
I think if you enjoy what you do for money you are living the dream really. FI can allow you to be fussier, Jacob style. But I guess if my wife and I in our current situation were to complain we were bored and run off to a corporate for stimulation then that, for me, would be a failure of imagination.
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IlliniDave
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Re: Bored
That, I agree with.Did wrote:I think if you enjoy what you do for money you are living the dream really. FI can allow you to be fussier, Jacob style. But I guess if my wife and I in our current situation were to complain we were bored and run off to a corporate for stimulation then that, for me, would be a failure of imagination.
Re: Bored
This is the question I've wrestled with most over the last decade, and I think now that it's almost entirely the latter.IlliniDave wrote:Interacting with her through this process over the last several years has caused me to contemplate things like: "Is happiness a matter of doing the things you enjoy, or enjoying the things you do?" Seems like a classic chicken/egg question.
It's a perspective thing. You hear it all the time from people who live in developed countries and then travel to third world countries. They get back and invariably say, "I'm so grateful... I'm so thankful... we have it so good here and we don't even appreciate it." And suddenly they do, because they're seeing all of their life's goodness with new eyes.
But every day we get that choice in every moment... am I going to cuss out the guy who cut me off in traffic, or rejoice that I have a car and good places to go? When I sit down to work, will I bitch about how slow the Internet is today, or enjoy the fact that once my browser loads I will have a million lifetimes' worth of information available at my fingertips? Once I get online, will I roll my eyes again at the content of the US political debates, or be grateful that I live in a place where I can vote? On and on.
The one way in which where this train of thought has perhaps not brought me more happiness is that since I got on it, I've become far more frustrated with whiners. People who complain without actively seeking a solution all seem lazy, entitled, childish, etc. to me now. And this is total hypocrisy on my part because I did the same things before I self-examined. I'm working on being grateful that I'm not stuck in that place anymore. That's a work in progress though.
When was the last time you visited a place with no indoor plumbing, Dave?IlliniDave wrote:I haven't yet learned to enjoy swabbing my toilet, but I have taught myself to extract more contentment, if not outright happiness, from the mundane corners of my present life.
Might be time for another trip.-
IlliniDave
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Re: Bored
Ha! It was June of 2007, spent about 8 days in NW Ontario at a remote "outpost" cabin. When I was looking for cabin's up in Minnesota one of the ones I viewed had no running water or electricity. To an extent that was appealing in a Walden Pond sort of way. But we could find no evidence of the outhouse that was alleged to be on the property, and some evidence along a trail that suggested there was not one. In light of your point, I'd say that I don't like swabbing my toilet, but I'm happy having a toilet even though it needs swabbing at times.GandK wrote:When was the last time you visited a place with no indoor plumbing, Dave?IlliniDave wrote:I haven't yet learned to enjoy swabbing my toilet, but I have taught myself to extract more contentment, if not outright happiness, from the mundane corners of my present life.
I enjoyed the rest of your observations as well.-
George the original one
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Re: Bored
Why hasn't someone invented a self-cleaning toilet? After all, we have self-cleaning ovens...
Re: Bored
Well, here you go http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/16/kohl ... dirty-wor/
But the price does not fit in my ERE approach
But the price does not fit in my ERE approach
Re: Bored
Self-cleaning toilets... would MMM say that a bedpan and a catheter is next? Might be a solution for both problems.
I'm not the only one who thinks the world is too entitled now and needs more perspective. Louis CK did a famous bit on Conan O'Brien about how everything is amazing but nobody's happy.
I'm not the only one who thinks the world is too entitled now and needs more perspective. Louis CK did a famous bit on Conan O'Brien about how everything is amazing but nobody's happy.
Re: Bored
Apparently my mom believes I'm on a mid-life walkabout searching for my spirit animal. I think she's a little worried to see her first born living a bit "weird", but she's happy for me and I'm fine with that.
BTW, I've found that a question about "boredom" is sometimes really a polite question about "work ethic". Quickly turning it back to work talk is a tip-off. Perhaps you can think about what you're projecting to others. Are wasting time with "silly" things, or working hard on something more important to you than paperwork?
I think she's a little worried to see her first born living a bit "weird", but she's happy for me and I'm fine with that.BTW, I've found that a question about "boredom" is sometimes really a polite question about "work ethic". Quickly turning it back to work talk is a tip-off. Perhaps you can think about what you're projecting to others. Are wasting time with "silly" things, or working hard on something more important to you than paperwork?
Re: Bored
You could always just use a hole in the ground. I recommend singing this song if you do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVTOtfZkVxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVTOtfZkVxk
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jacob
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Re: Bored
I posted this in the Golden Handcuffs thread. I like this lens.
More details in that thread. I don't think boredom is simply caused by a lack of imagination though I do seem to have a semi-repressed memory of having held that position in the past. I have, however, been forced to abandon that position both from being unable to escape boredom simply by being more imaginative (I think my imagination is plenty good) and from talking to other people.
In terms of other people, I accept that different people look for challenges in different ways. In MBTI terms ... traveling to see and eat stuff challenges the SP dimension. This does not mean that it's exclusively for SP types. Rather we all contain these sub-types as part or out aggregate personality. When someone says they're INTJ, it just means that the INTJ is preferred. But it's still desired to explore aspects to grow as a person. For someone who never left home, travel is a natural first outlet, especially for Ns who live in their brains. Since I had already had my fill of travel, my first SP impulse was in hardcore sports.
However, there is also the SJ dimension ... of status and security and fitting in. Or the NF dimension ... of authenticity and connecting deeply with other people. Or the NT dimension ... of competence and problem solving.
The failure to find a challenge is sometimes not due to not being able to imagine challenges. It may also be because one is not ready for it. Goethe, I believe, said something along the lines that you can do what you want (e.g. learn to play the guitar) but you can't want what you want (e.g. want to learn to play the guitar in the first place).
So, while there's obviously plenty to do ... the problem may be that there isn't a whole lot to want.
(Of course failing to appreciate that others may want different things is a failure.)
More details in that thread. I don't think boredom is simply caused by a lack of imagination though I do seem to have a semi-repressed memory of having held that position in the past. I have, however, been forced to abandon that position both from being unable to escape boredom simply by being more imaginative (I think my imagination is plenty good) and from talking to other people.
In terms of other people, I accept that different people look for challenges in different ways. In MBTI terms ... traveling to see and eat stuff challenges the SP dimension. This does not mean that it's exclusively for SP types. Rather we all contain these sub-types as part or out aggregate personality. When someone says they're INTJ, it just means that the INTJ is preferred. But it's still desired to explore aspects to grow as a person. For someone who never left home, travel is a natural first outlet, especially for Ns who live in their brains. Since I had already had my fill of travel, my first SP impulse was in hardcore sports.
However, there is also the SJ dimension ... of status and security and fitting in. Or the NF dimension ... of authenticity and connecting deeply with other people. Or the NT dimension ... of competence and problem solving.
The failure to find a challenge is sometimes not due to not being able to imagine challenges. It may also be because one is not ready for it. Goethe, I believe, said something along the lines that you can do what you want (e.g. learn to play the guitar) but you can't want what you want (e.g. want to learn to play the guitar in the first place).
So, while there's obviously plenty to do ... the problem may be that there isn't a whole lot to want.
(Of course failing to appreciate that others may want different things is a failure.)
Re: Bored
I don't see any point in talking about 'boredom' Did. That to me is simply a red herring and your mother could have as easily asked any of a dozen other questions of the same kind. I think Tyler9000 got it right when writing, "BTW, I've found that a question about "boredom" is sometimes really a polite question about "work ethic".
So 'boredom' is not the real topic. The real topic is about how family and friends perceive someone who no longer works for a living and in particular, when you do that at a younger than average age. Your mother would not be asking you the question if you were 65.
When I retired at 43 and ended up living on a Greek island after a year of travelling around, my mother was worried that I had become a 'beach bum'. I laughed and asked her just what was wrong with being a 'beach bum' if I could afford to be one. I would be quite happy to think that I was the most successful beach bum in the world.
Picture this as the 'beach shack' you owned and the life you lived without having to work for a living. http://imagesus.homeaway.com/mda01/fe23 ... 66071.1.10
Yeah Mom, I'm a 'beach bum'. Did you want me to live life in something like this instead?
http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thes ... terbox.jpg
Which by the way sold for just over $1mil. Oh, and did you notice the weather difference?
I sent my mother a few photos of where I was living, the house, the beach, other scenery, etc. As long as she had something to show her family and friends that she could be 'proud of', she was fine.
So 'boredom' is not the real topic. The real topic is about how family and friends perceive someone who no longer works for a living and in particular, when you do that at a younger than average age. Your mother would not be asking you the question if you were 65.
When I retired at 43 and ended up living on a Greek island after a year of travelling around, my mother was worried that I had become a 'beach bum'. I laughed and asked her just what was wrong with being a 'beach bum' if I could afford to be one. I would be quite happy to think that I was the most successful beach bum in the world.
Picture this as the 'beach shack' you owned and the life you lived without having to work for a living. http://imagesus.homeaway.com/mda01/fe23 ... 66071.1.10
Yeah Mom, I'm a 'beach bum'. Did you want me to live life in something like this instead?
http://www.thestar.com/content/dam/thes ... terbox.jpg
Which by the way sold for just over $1mil. Oh, and did you notice the weather difference?
I sent my mother a few photos of where I was living, the house, the beach, other scenery, etc. As long as she had something to show her family and friends that she could be 'proud of', she was fine.
Re: Bored
@all Thanks for the insights!
@oldpro Yes, I think you are right. My mother is not really concerned about whether or not I am entertained. She thinks I should be being productive! (generating income being the definition of that). I think our whole life is a bit of a mind f*ck for her. And also, our income is much less than I would suspect she would imagine we would need even to survive. Loved the pictures and sentiment.
@jacob Nice chart. I'm not sure all high challenge high skill tasks lead to a state of flow! But no doubt it is horses for courses. I'm still working myself out post 'retirement'. I think many of my thoughts have been shared by others - do I have enough invested (am I being foolish), do I want/need more cash flow or is that me being weak/inefficient, should I be kicking more goals, do I miss interacting with people I mainly met at work (hang on, I loathed them didn't I), should I as a pure rule only do things i enjoy or can completely automate for cash and so on and so forth. I know these have been discussed a lot, and I could rattle off ideal answers for each of them, but when it's your own life sometimes you struggle with these questions more than when you are giving advice to others (that's my own experience, no slight on any anyone here). Just thinking aloud there...
@tyler900 - yup, think you're right.
@oldpro Yes, I think you are right. My mother is not really concerned about whether or not I am entertained. She thinks I should be being productive! (generating income being the definition of that). I think our whole life is a bit of a mind f*ck for her. And also, our income is much less than I would suspect she would imagine we would need even to survive. Loved the pictures and sentiment.
@jacob Nice chart. I'm not sure all high challenge high skill tasks lead to a state of flow! But no doubt it is horses for courses. I'm still working myself out post 'retirement'. I think many of my thoughts have been shared by others - do I have enough invested (am I being foolish), do I want/need more cash flow or is that me being weak/inefficient, should I be kicking more goals, do I miss interacting with people I mainly met at work (hang on, I loathed them didn't I), should I as a pure rule only do things i enjoy or can completely automate for cash and so on and so forth. I know these have been discussed a lot, and I could rattle off ideal answers for each of them, but when it's your own life sometimes you struggle with these questions more than when you are giving advice to others (that's my own experience, no slight on any anyone here). Just thinking aloud there...
@tyler900 - yup, think you're right.
Re: Bored
Adapting to your new life as a 'retiree' takes time just like anything else Did. I have 26 years of it under my belt and still see my wife with 'only' 10 years, still adjusting to her 'new' life as a retiree.
Some people on the road to FIREing, tend to see it as an end goal and when they get there, suddenly discover that it is only a new beginning that requires them to adapt and learn just like anything else new in life. There are no 'ideal answers' and there is no need to intellectualize everything as some here seem to think they need to do. I don't give a darn if something I want to do is high/low challenge or high/low skill at all. I do what I want to do and it's as simple as that. I don't 'struggle with any of those questions at all. But, having said that, I still see my wife doing a little of that even after 10 years.
You did what you had to do to get to the point where you no longer needed to work for a living. Now you are there and it's time to relax and enjoy life. I'm always reminded of when I first lived in Greece and would go out to my local kafenion (coffee shop/bar). I'd go in, order a coffee, chat, drink my coffee and leave in about 15 minutes or whatever. It took me around 3 years to learn that it takes 3 hours to drink a cup of coffee. Something that every Greek living on that island knew from about the age of 10.
When you have spent all your life living in a certain way, at a certain pace, with certain expectations and beliefs, it isn't easy to learn a whole new way of life. Especially when those around you are still living in that way. When on the rare occasion (now, it used to be more frequent) I have someone make a remark about boredom, work ethic, productive use of life, etc., I just give them my stock answer which is said in a joking manner but in truth is intended to make a point. I tell them that work is for the working class (that's anyone who has to work for a living) and that I prefer to be a member of the leisure class (that's those who do not have to work for a living). It tends to end the topic right there.
Some people on the road to FIREing, tend to see it as an end goal and when they get there, suddenly discover that it is only a new beginning that requires them to adapt and learn just like anything else new in life. There are no 'ideal answers' and there is no need to intellectualize everything as some here seem to think they need to do. I don't give a darn if something I want to do is high/low challenge or high/low skill at all. I do what I want to do and it's as simple as that. I don't 'struggle with any of those questions at all. But, having said that, I still see my wife doing a little of that even after 10 years.
You did what you had to do to get to the point where you no longer needed to work for a living. Now you are there and it's time to relax and enjoy life. I'm always reminded of when I first lived in Greece and would go out to my local kafenion (coffee shop/bar). I'd go in, order a coffee, chat, drink my coffee and leave in about 15 minutes or whatever. It took me around 3 years to learn that it takes 3 hours to drink a cup of coffee. Something that every Greek living on that island knew from about the age of 10.
When you have spent all your life living in a certain way, at a certain pace, with certain expectations and beliefs, it isn't easy to learn a whole new way of life. Especially when those around you are still living in that way. When on the rare occasion (now, it used to be more frequent) I have someone make a remark about boredom, work ethic, productive use of life, etc., I just give them my stock answer which is said in a joking manner but in truth is intended to make a point. I tell them that work is for the working class (that's anyone who has to work for a living) and that I prefer to be a member of the leisure class (that's those who do not have to work for a living). It tends to end the topic right there.