Relationship? Married? If so, why?

How to explain ERE, arranging family matters
henrik
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by henrik » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:25 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:I think focusing on divorce statistics is of limited use in determining the benefits of marriage because they do not take into account all the intact but thoroughly miserable marriages.
To be fair, they also don't take into account any of the satisfying relationships people have without getting married:) If you're talking about "determining the benefits of marriage", they are just as relevant.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:19 am

Henrik said: To be fair, they also don't take into account any of the satisfying relationships people have without getting married:) If you're talking about "determining the benefits of marriage", they are just as relevant.
True. I think the best, most frugal, happiness maximizing arrangement might be sharing domestic space with a group of other amiable women and just having a steady, monogamous BF who comes over to pick me up on his motorcycle to spend the weekend camping with him and Wednesday night for dinner and sex. Of course, those who tend towards aspirational polygamy and/or the desire to have somebody else cook dinner for them might not prefer this arrangement themselves (sigh.)

General Snoopy
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by General Snoopy » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:50 am

Having children is the only reason for marriage. If you don’t want children then there is no purpose in getting married. As others have stated the risks of divorce are far too great. Finally, in divorce the woman commonly gets custody of the children, so you will lose what was the only purpose of marriage in the first place. I consider marriage to be an obsolete institution.

If I was young and foolish and in love, then I would get married if the girl insisted on it. If I was settling (because I wanted children), then I would consider the risks far too great – both financial and losing the children – and stop my foolishness.

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Dragline
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Dragline » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:59 am

I thought that this was in interesting take on this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eparlp-8uVo

I strongly agree with item #5 of the six in the video.

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jennypenny
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by jennypenny » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:25 am

Yeah, I like the idea of viewing it as a small business, although sometimes (most of the time?) that can dominate the relationship and make it too platonic. To sustain the intimacy, I think you have to make sure to take time for the emotional stuff (communication, fun, sex) even if it means incorporating it into the plan and administering to that aspect as you would any other.

KMS
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by KMS » Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:32 am

General Snoopy wrote:Having children is the only reason for marriage. If you don’t want children then there is no purpose in getting married. As others have stated the risks of divorce are far too great. Finally, in divorce the woman commonly gets custody of the children, so you will lose what was the only purpose of marriage in the first place. I consider marriage to be an obsolete institution.

If I was young and foolish and in love, then I would get married if the girl insisted on it. If I was settling (because I wanted children), then I would consider the risks far too great – both financial and losing the children – and stop my foolishness.
Though your argument may be practically sound, you're dismissing any religious beliefs, as well as the feelings of commitment that may accompany that little piece of paper called a marriage license. I am not married myself, so in no way an expert, but I feel it is sad that marriage has become a business agreement more than a life-long commitment. Our government certainly doesn't offer great benefit in being married, which only supports your argument, and with a growing divorce rate, many are assuming they'll be divorced some day before they even slip a ring on their finger. However, the question should be asked that if people only want to marry IF they have children, why even marry at that point? Why do you feel it is necessary to marry in order to have children if there is nothing more to marriage than a piece of paper, a big party, & a possible loss of property & money?

I support marriage whole-heartedly & feel having money as a number 1 priority will cause more problems than solutions (even though I enjoy ERE immensely). There's a balance to be found between what is financially wise & emotionally wise, both should be accomplished when making the right decision.

General Snoopy
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by General Snoopy » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:41 pm

The best environment for raising children is within the context of marriage. For this reason (and only this reason) I support marriage and would prefer cultural/governmental policies to make the institution of marriage stronger.

Feminists are always fond of saying, “You can change your mind.” There was one example where this lady said she had three careers and three marriages. (Unfortunately, I am unable to locate the link.) With this kind of cavalier attitude to marriage, then as a man only a nutcase would choose marriage.

Note, my opinions are shaped by my experience in the USA specifically California. It is probably different in other countries.

henrik
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by henrik » Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:38 pm

General Snoopy wrote:The best environment for raising children is within the context of marriage.
Why? Where I live, the parents' marital status does not affect the children in any way in the legal sense. Is that different in the US? Or is it a tradition thing? Or an emotional thing?

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theanimal
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by theanimal » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:52 pm

@Henrik- Yes, it's a US traditional thing.

I completely disagree with that notion as well though. The best environment to raise a kid is not 2 individuals, but in a community.

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Chad
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Chad » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:03 am

@theanimal
Yeah, the ideal is a very small community, but it's very difficult to pull off in our current mobile society.

KMS
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by KMS » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:18 am

General Snoopy wrote:The best environment for raising children is within the context of marriage. For this reason (and only this reason) I support marriage and would prefer cultural/governmental policies to make the institution of marriage stronger.

Feminists are always fond of saying, “You can change your mind.” There was one example where this lady said she had three careers and three marriages. (Unfortunately, I am unable to locate the link.) With this kind of cavalier attitude to marriage, then as a man only a nutcase would choose marriage.

Note, my opinions are shaped by my experience in the USA specifically California. It is probably different in other countries.
I agree that children benefit the most while being raised in a family, I was simply curious as to your reasoning as to why marriage was necessary only on this situation.

I also agree that your environment will probably dictate your viewpoint to a certain degree. I live outside of Boston. Though I don't share in the typical liberal ideology of New England, there is still an underlying traditional undertone of children & marriage, even in the most liberal of areas. Though getting married after children is becoming more & more popular, the parents still see the merits of marriage at some point.

I'm fascinated by couples who split their income, which is fairly common on this site, based on what I've read. Do you each pay certain bills? Do you also have a shared account? Is there ever any resentment in terms of spending? Growing up in a family with my Father working & Mother staying home, this was not an option. I'm curious as to how couples make it work.

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vexed87
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by vexed87 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:30 am

I'm not married yet, but will be next year. I know my SO is my best friend while we don't agree on everything, our interests are aligned. If I can't make it work with her, I can't see why I would be able to with succeed with anyone else.

Aside from the benefits for family life/stability for children, there are legal reasons for marriage, inheritance, tax breaks etc. I am not religious at all, so would have been happy with civil ceremony but my SO is, and I respect her beliefs so will go along with it.

While living with a SO who is not ERE inclined (yet!) can increase some expenses (eating out, fancy meals with family), there are benefits of sharing accommodation, bills etc. The largest financial benefit I can think of is I will only need to take on half of a mortgage to buy my first home, etc etc.

arrrrgon
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by arrrrgon » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:56 am

My wife means everything to me. She meant everything to me the day I asked her to marry me. It never even crossed my mind to separate finances. There is no world where I'm happy without her, so money is meaningless in the grand scheme.

I don't believe in having separate accounts, passwords, etc... in a marriage. Why would I marry someone who I couldn't trust enough to share everything with?

Obviously this is all just my opinion, and no I'm not a newlywed :-P We've been married 9 years and we've been together 12.

What I'm getting at is that if you marry your best friend nothing else should matter.

KMS
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by KMS » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:48 pm

arrrrgon wrote:My wife means everything to me. She meant everything to me the day I asked her to marry me. It never even crossed my mind to separate finances. There is no world where I'm happy without her, so money is meaningless in the grand scheme.

I don't believe in having separate accounts, passwords, etc... in a marriage. Why would I marry someone who I couldn't trust enough to share everything with?

Obviously this is all just my opinion, and no I'm not a newlywed :-P We've been married 9 years and we've been together 12.

What I'm getting at is that if you marry your best friend nothing else should matter.
I hope you show your wife this post, I can guarantee it'll make her day.

arrrrgon
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by arrrrgon » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:52 pm

KMS wrote:I hope you show your wife this post, I can guarantee it'll make her day.
Haha thanks. I tell her how much she means to me every day.

General Snoopy
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by General Snoopy » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:32 am

@Henrik - Children strongly benefit from having both parents present and involved. Marriage relative to cohabitation strongly encourages that both parents will stay involved rather than leave their separate ways.

@KMS – At heart I am a romantic traditionalist. As a romantic I believe people should only marry for love. As a traditionalist I believe children should be a part of every marriage. I don’t understand why some people marry without the intention of having children.

Finally, I am also pragmatic. With the current divorce laws (heads you win, tails I lose - to include loss of the children), feminists’ cavalier attitude towards marriage, scary statistics (2/3rds of all divorces initiated by women, half of all marriages end in divorce, 10% of children may not be yours, etc.), and questionable benefits of marriage itself, then that marriage license is extraordinarily expensive for what you get.

@jennypenny – “…viewing it as a small business…” Where is the love?

@7Wannabe5 – [Extended discussion on taking care of potential husband in old age.] The answer to whether you should get married or not comes down to “Are you in love with him and is he in love with you?” If yes, get married; if not, don’t. Taking care of your husband in decrepit old age should be a labor of love – for richer or for poorer as they say. If it is not, then don’t get married. The end of life situation is not the same thing as divorce, since divorce means the lack of love; whereas, for the end of life circumstance the love should still be there if it was there in the beginning.
Last edited by General Snoopy on Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by IlliniDave » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:52 am

General Snoopy wrote: @KMS – At heart I am a romantic traditionalist. As a romantic I believe people should only marry for love. As a traditionalist I believe children should be a part of every marriage. I don’t understand why some people marry without the intention of having children.
...
@jennypenny – “…viewing it as a small business…” Where is the love?

@7Wannabe5 – [Extended discussion on taking care of potential husband in old age.] The answer to whether you should get married or not comes down to “Are you in love with him and is he in love with you?” If yes, get married; if not, don’t. Taking care of your husband in decrepit old age should be a labor of love – for richer or for poorer as they say. If it is not, then don’t get married. The end of life situation is not the same thing as divorce, since divorce means the lack of love; whereas, for the end of life circumstance the love should still be there if it was there in the beginning.
I'm not sure that marriage "only for love" is quite as traditional as you believe. Actually, it's probably by-in-large a modern innovation in cultures that are relatively comfortable and urban-based (lots of mobility and lots of nearby/accessible choices that would never be practical in largely agrarian low population density cultures). The small business analogy is probably closer to the way it's been approached in the aggregate throughout the millennia, with multi-generational/extended families being the "unit" more so than the standalone couple. I sometimes wonder if the removal, or at least demotion of, the business aspect doesn't contribute to divorce rates. Partners generally don't "need" each other in modern western culture the way they did in the past/less developed cultures, and the lack of necessity can make it appear easier to just walk away rather than do the work to make it work.

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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:52 am

IlliniDave said: I'm not sure that marriage "only for love" is quite as traditional as you believe.
I agree. Recent genetic research gives evidence that until and roughly coincident with the invention of the plow, polygamy was the norm for human reproduction. IOW, we all have very many more genetic grandmothers than grandfathers. Human beings are very adaptable creatures so there have been all sorts of variations on the theme of marriage throughout history but it is usually the case that economics drive marriage traditions rather than vice-versa. The invention of the plow led to monogamy because it increased the benefit of division of labor along gender lines due to the need for a great deal of upper body strength to engage in a plow based agricultural economy.

Romantic love as a basis for legal marriage is a relatively recent invention or convention. In fact, the notion that one could or should experience "transcendent" sex (sex melded with the purpose of expressing deep romantic or affectionate feelings) within the context of legal marriage was first widely promoted in the late 19th century in the Christian West. Prior to that it was more often seen as a matter of duty, especially for the female partner to the union. Of course, many married couples did share romantic feelings but this was more a lucky consequence rather than an acceptable reason for marriage.

Anyways, if we agree on the premise that ERE lifestyle vs. Conventional lifestyle is analogous to Permaculture vs. Conventional Agriculture then I think the best way to answer this question would be to figure out what form of "marriage" would be most in alignment with the "rules" of permaculture. For instance, the Rule of Three, simplistically stated, is that anything you bring into your habitat should serve at least 3 purposes but every necessary purpose should also be capable of fulfillment by 3 means.
General Snoopy said: Taking care of your husband in decrepit old age should be a labor of love
True. That's why I keep telling my SO that he should quit smoking and exercise more so that he can be the one to experience the joy of providing loving care for me in my decrepit old age. Actually, I really don't want that because I once saw this documentary about an expensive nursing home for the senile and this one husband was still very much in love with his extremely senile wife, so he visited her every day and did her hair and make-up like a doll and propped her up and talked to her. I would much prefer just being pumped full of morphine and dumped on my compost pile to rot.

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Chad
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Chad » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:10 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:...the Rule of Three...
For a half second I was very intrigued by "the Rule of Three" for relationships.

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jennypenny
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by jennypenny » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:24 am

Chad wrote:
7Wannabe5 wrote:...the Rule of Three...
For a half second I was very intrigued by "the Rule of Three" for relationships.
haha ... would that change your mind about taking the vows? ;)

General Snoopy wrote:@jennypenny – “…viewing it as a small business…” Where is the love?
The love is there. It started the relationship and sustains it. I guess I see a 'marriage' as more than just a relationship. DH and I are together 30 years this year, married for 25 of them. What we've built after all that time is much bigger than our relationship. Our marriage is a conglomerate that includes a number of things including our interests, our nest egg, our home, our kids, our extended family and social circle, and yes, our relationship. Treating the marriage as a business means overseeing and managing all of the different aspects of our marriage, which includes (but isn't limited to) loving each other and tending our relationship.

I can see how if a person sees marriage as simply making a relationship legally binding, it would seem superfluous. Or if a person is only interested in maintaining a relationship and nothing more, marriage is unnecessary. When DH and I got married, we did so because we saw it as more than just solidifying our relationship. We were agreeing to create jennypenny inc., so to speak, and devote our lives to building that up and making it work.

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Chad
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Chad » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:12 am

@jenny
Absolutely! But, not really. Though, I wouldn't say I wouldn't try it.

I'm not against a committed relationship, just some of the stuff that gets attached to being officially married.

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jennypenny
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by jennypenny » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:17 am

@Chad -- Yeah, 'threesomes' in this context aren't always what you thought they'd be ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txrnbga-zDA

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Chad
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by Chad » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:23 am

Funny clip. I will be avoiding that threesome.

henrik
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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by henrik » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:12 pm

General Snoopy wrote:Marriage relative to cohabitation strongly encourages that both parents will stay involved rather than leave their separate ways.
If that is true (I don't know), I wonder which way the causation works? Do people get married because they want to stay involved or do they leave their separeate ways because they didn't get married? In other words, is marriage more often the cause or the result of staying together?
General Snoopy wrote:The answer to whether you should get married or not comes down to “Are you in love with him and is he in love with you?” If yes, get married; if not, don’t.
I would have contributed a whole lot to the divorce statistics by my current relatively young age if I'd been following this advice! :)

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Re: Relationship? Married? If so, why?

Post by arrrrgon » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:27 pm

henrik wrote:I would have contributed a whole lot to the divorce statistics by my current relatively young age if I'd been following this advice! :)
I don't think you've been in love yet if you feel this way. Many people mistake liking someone a lot as love. Many people mistake lust for love. But when you truly love someone your life is never the same without them.

Please don't take that as an attack at all, but I believe you'll know the difference some day.

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