ERE Objections

[Cashflow]

One of the best books I've read on financial freedom (besides the ERE book) is Wealth Buys Freedom.
Starting on page 15 of that book is a section on "Quick facts about retirement and wealth." The bottom line is that most people retire in poverty. To paraphrase Henry Ford, whether you think you will retire rich or retire poor, you will always be right. What people think about themselves is what they will become.

[Carlos]

@MossySF
I went to the Bogleheads forum and read the entries. You were right to tell us to stay away. Ugh. Some of those folks are such sheeple.
I've discussed my ER/FI plans with a select few, not many at work (1 actually). Everyone that I've told has been supportive but that's probably because I'm selective in who I tell.
There will be some strange looks and disapproval (envy I imagine) when it gets to the point where my alternate path becomes apparent.
I'm just so fortunate that my partner is on board. Soon we may be running an avocado farm in central america. Or maybe we'll RV across the country and hike the national parks. Who knows?
I know one thing, we'll make the decision and NOT MegaCorp.

[aquadump]

@dragoncar, I think there's a lack of education (or interest?), too. People don't know what enough is, what enough is a function of, and how to have not quite enough last longer than enough.

[jeremymday]

There is a lack of education and a lack of willingness to change. I feel it is my job to educate people the best I can, and let them make their own decisions.
And strongly resist the urge to say, "I told you so..." later on down the road.
Do you guys have trouble with that? It could almost be a separate forum post...

[dragoncar]

I definitely fly under the radar at work. I think most professional companies want people who want to be there (or at least can fake it). If they know you plan to leave after X years, you may be first on the chopping block for layoffs. This is assuming you are early in your career where the company is actually investing in training, etc. and matters much less when you make yourself indispensable.

[jacob]

@jeremyday - I have a hard time resisting saying "I told you so" in general. However, I manage to do so (or I really good at suppressing the memory of it) in person albeit less so on the internet. I've never had any ERE "I told you so" moments, because basically I never really told anyone [in advance]... well, you know what I mean.
I think a lot of these objections can be avoided simply by not stating the coherent plan. Divide and conquer. Most people will write down one's strange habits to quirky but isolated attributes. They can't put the puzzle together.

[JohnnyH]

So true on the positive black swan. You have to be always open to opportunities, willing to go out on a limb and take some chances. You will miss your positive black swan if you develop the common "everything is a scam. No opportunities exist." mentality...
Most people aren't going to pat you on the back, because that would threaten the validity of their choices (mortgage, debt, consumption)... Same concept why you rarely see a jury acquit someone of not paying their taxes, no matter how reasonable the defense.
I've found the more people are invested in the system (23 years out of 30, just "bought" a house/new car, high paying job, advanced degree, student loan debt, boat loan) the more resistant they are to even logically entertaining the idea or ER/FI.
The reactions to my ER plans were so overwhelmingly negative, I learned quickly to keep it to myself.

[S]

I've had mostly positive reactions from friends who think it's a great idea, but I tend to hang out with a bunch of vegetarian cyclists. The main objection from them is that they don't believe it's possible. Family members just shake their head and hope I'll grow out of it, buy a big house in the burbs, and have some kids soon. I just don't bring it up at work since I still need the job for a while.

[mikeBOS]

I've had so many negative reactions from discussing ER that I now just have a blanket policy of not discussing it. It's hard to do, because it's fun to talk about your future plans and successes with people, especially when they start talking about theirs. But I just keep my mouth shut and nod along when they lament about how tough the job market is or tell me about the exotic mortgage they're trying to finagle to refinance their house.
I'll discuss retirement with my closest of friends, but I gave up trying to explain it to family and colleagues long ago.

[B]

I actually have somewhat of the opposite problem. Even though I am on track to retire at 30, to most of my closest friends, I am not prioritizing freedom enough!
Although many of my friends are dreamers, they also pray at the altar of specialization. They can't fathom an escape from industry that isn't simply locking themselves up in some other institution. Academia is a popular choice. A few of them are considering freelancing in their niche as a solution, others have simply taken low-stress entry level jobs.
When I decided to take the ERE long view (work for 5 years as an engineer for WhoCaresInc, reduce expenses, save >70%) many of them saw this as simply "selling out". Even the friend who also took a boring industry job thinks I'm a "sell out" because he has immediate plans to quit (after one year) to pursue freelancing (in a completely unrelated field. wtf!), and I am planning on keeping the job until I am making enough on the side to live on (will probably take 5 years).
Isn't the "free spirited" personality type is supposed to be rare among engineers and scientists?!

[jacob]

That depends on what you mean by free spirited. If it means spontaneous and disregarding consequences (worrying about them later); yes, then it's pretty rare. If it's holding some kind of idiosyncratic view in the face of popular opinion(*), it's not that rare.
(*) Or even in the face of the well-defined standards of remarkable noncomformity ;-D
I think it's more personality dependent than field dependent. It's just that scientists and engineers tend to be dominated by certain personalities.

[mike]

Just spoke with a female colleague who mentioned she would like to move to Hawaii for a extended visit/stay with her boyfriend if only she could pay down her ~$30K credit card debt and just recently incurred another $40K student loan debt (to get a degree in psychology..she is currently a financial analyst making ~ $60K+).
Also 3 months ago bought a used BMW 328i (the choice was between a Honda Civic and a BMW) for like $18K..already been to the shop 2 times since for some tune-up etc that cost over $700 so far.
Also while being at the firm for 3 yrs, claims not to have had any money available to invest in the company's stock purchase plan - get stock a yr from now at 15% discount to current (last 3 trading days of October) trading price and if stock falls below that at time of purchase..you get your full money back. Deductions menahile are made from each paycheck to a max contribution level of $20K. Basically a risk free opportunity to make upto (based on historical data) 26% plus a year and the only lost opportunity being interest one could have possibly earned by keeping those monthly deductions in the bank (2-3%?).
She had wanted my advice while buying the car and I tried to steer her towards the civic but as some others here have alluded...can take a horse to the water..can't make it drink

[Cashflow]

The aspect of human psychology at work here is known as the Crab mentality.
People who try to get ahead at work are often sabotaged by their coworkers; people who want to leave for another lifestyle (such as starting a business or doing consulting work) are often ridiculed and otherwise made to feel unwelcome.
So that I wasn't perceived as a career threat to anyone, I kept a low profile and flew under the radar. By the time anyone had figured out what I had done, I was financially independent and didn't need a job anymore.

[dragoncar]

Crab people, crab people, taste like crab, talk like people...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV5wmDhzgY8

[aquadump]

In those situations, maybe change the conversation from financial (and time freedom) aspects of ERE to the skill or development aspects.

[RightClawSouth]

If anyone seriously tried to use argument (1) on me, I'd be seriously tempted to tell the to go DIAGF but then I'm a very individualistic person
The kids thing is tougher but honestly, I think these are the most important things for raising kids, all of which don't require much money:
1. Love them

2. Choose your spouse well so you don't expose your kids to you being a jerk to said spouse or vice versa

3. Shelter, clothing, food

4. Education (esp teaching them to be skeptical)
An interesting argument is that your kids might see you not working and think that they can also be fine without working. I think this can be countered with effective parenting though.
I think all the other arguments are pretty trivial to deal with...

[George the original one]

10) "No one can live on that little."

10a) "No one can enjoy living on that little."

11) "Wish I could save some money and invest it like you do."
And, from the 58-yr old sibling who just got a BA in Religious Studies,

12) "Would you pay/cosign a loan for my master's degree education because I need to find meaningful work so I can have a good income, too, but I can't work while going to college because that's too hard and these student loans don't pay me enough to afford my car and 2-bedroom apartment for my boyfriend that I want to marry who can't work because he lost his green card and you know the two toy poodles that I love need to be fed, too."

[jacob]

As a general rule when it comes to these things: Show, don't tell.
Despite their college education (or maybe because of it), many are not able to think through the consequences of a complex argument. Most opinions are simply repeated. Few can answer why.
I'd advise against asking questions that requires thought. Thinking makes many people feel stupid and resentful.
There are two problems with discussion ERE.
1) It disagrees with established thought.

2) It is slightly more complex.
When "civilians" ask me, I usually respond with something that DOES NOT disagree with established thought and I use a simplified version. To wit, I don't say I'm independently wealthy and retired. I say I'm a writer and if they then ask how I can make a living doing that, I say I saved a bunch of money while I was working. "Aren't you worried about running out?" -> "Not really, I saved quite a bit and I spend very little."

[dragoncar]

I think the best objection comes from people who really do love their work. These people do, in fact, exist. I know some, and do not think they are deluding themselves. The only problem is that MY personality is such that I don't think I could be happy spending 8+ hours per day on ANY one project. Furthermore, I need a lot more sleep than many (9-10 hours, ideally). If I was one of those people who could jump up after 5-6 hours, hit the gym, then work all day doing something that they love, and have the mental energy afterward to socialize, etc, I would not need ERE.

[jacob]

I used to REALLY *LOVE* my work. It was an around the clock thing for me. I'd come in weekends just to work. I made statements to the effect that I'd still be doing this if they ever stopped paying me.
Things change.
I think it's also quite likely that some people can never find work they love. Or more likely, many people can not find work they love which also pays their livelihood (at their current level of expenses).
Consider people like Sam Walton or Warren Buffet. It's pretty clear that they don't/didn't need work. It's also clear that they didn't work for "stuff" having a moderate level of consumption even compared to regular "professionals". They work/worked anyway because that's who they are.
I'm similar (my consumption is even lower). I just want the freedom to work on what I want to. This is much more significant to me than being able to buy what I want.
One size surely don't fit all. That some people love their jobs is not an argument against ERE.
[Maybe I should have called it F*** **u Money Extreme ]