For the married folks planning for ERE, how are you approaching it with your spouse? Are you planning to be individually FI while your spouse continues to work as Jacob has, or are you planning to retire as a couple? The number required for one person is much smaller. My husband is onboard with the *idea* but making it happen for him will be much more difficult. I make significantly more than him and he also has higher expenses (child support), but I don't think not working while he has to will be an easy sell. How have you guys been handling the spouse situation?
ERE when married
I would also be highly interested in the answers. I am not married, but I *could* be married.
The Retire Early Lifestyle people have their spending per day pegged @ $60 total. Which is about 20k. Jacob said his expenses are around 6k. Let's say it doubles if his wife ERE's, so they are 8k less than REL. REL travels around to different countries which probably increases their expenses while Jacob does not.
The Retire Early Lifestyle people have their spending per day pegged @ $60 total. Which is about 20k. Jacob said his expenses are around 6k. Let's say it doubles if his wife ERE's, so they are 8k less than REL. REL travels around to different countries which probably increases their expenses while Jacob does not.
-
jacob
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15998
- Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
- Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
- Contact:
Saving is a highly esteemed value for me (in fact on of the downsides of not having a job is that I don't get to save as much money anymore). It is less so for DW, who is more "frugal bordering on average".
Historically, I have wanted her to save money and I have felt I couldn't spend any excess money, because I could always hand it over to her savings. This has caused some stress.
The solution was to use a budget (yes, I know .. budgets, budgets, I don't need no stinking budget) to be able to numerically demonstrate priorities and project savings and ER(E) dates forward. DW wants to retire at 45 at a higher expense level rather than at 38 at a lower level, say, and is on track to do so. This means that I should not feel compelled to do everything in my (limited) powers to make it happen in five years like with me.
On the other hand, if one spends wants to save for ER/E and the other wants to spend for fun, the former should be allowed to save and not be morally obligated to work to support the other's higher spending lifestyle. Just my two cents.
Of course my lifestyle (homebody) is pretty compatible with DW's. It's not like she's preventing me from globetrotting adventures. I wouldn't go anyway.
Historically, I have wanted her to save money and I have felt I couldn't spend any excess money, because I could always hand it over to her savings. This has caused some stress.
The solution was to use a budget (yes, I know .. budgets, budgets, I don't need no stinking budget) to be able to numerically demonstrate priorities and project savings and ER(E) dates forward. DW wants to retire at 45 at a higher expense level rather than at 38 at a lower level, say, and is on track to do so. This means that I should not feel compelled to do everything in my (limited) powers to make it happen in five years like with me.
On the other hand, if one spends wants to save for ER/E and the other wants to spend for fun, the former should be allowed to save and not be morally obligated to work to support the other's higher spending lifestyle. Just my two cents.
Of course my lifestyle (homebody) is pretty compatible with DW's. It's not like she's preventing me from globetrotting adventures. I wouldn't go anyway.
Our biggest issue is housing costs as too high percentage of income to pursue ERE (wife is a stay at home Mom). We aren't willing to relocate since all our family is nearby.
We were saving about 30%, but that dropped to 10% last month when baby 2 arrived. So that leaves increasing income to widen the gap. Not as easy to do as cutting expenses, but we have a few ideas. One thing I'm looking at is cutting back when my wife goes back to work in a few years.
We were saving about 30%, but that dropped to 10% last month when baby 2 arrived. So that leaves increasing income to widen the gap. Not as easy to do as cutting expenses, but we have a few ideas. One thing I'm looking at is cutting back when my wife goes back to work in a few years.
Married with spouse for 16 years (both 36 years young) 2 kids.
My wake up call happened about 4 years ago and my wife has slowly agreed to retire early and save. Although she has never been a big spender. I would suggest to ensure you significant other has your goals in mind prior to marriage. I somehow got lucky in this regard as we never talked about financials the first 10 years of our marriage.
Our plan is to quit work in May 2012 when my son graduates from high school. If we stay on target we will have $400K saved up to live off of.
Our basic budget now:
Rent $1,325
Electric $125
Food $300
Kids Lunch $60
Day care $790
Internet $43
Cell 3 phones $96
Car gas $200
Car insurance $57
Extra spending $500
Total Bills $3,496
Our basic budget when we quit work:
Note: we are going to live with my wife's parents rent free
Rent $0
Electric $75
Food $300
Kids Lunch $60
Day care $0
Internet $43
Cell 2 phones $75
Car gas $100
Car insurance $200
Extra spending $190
Total Bills $1,000
Bare bones annual expenses $12,000 / .04 = $300,000 needed
If the stock market takes a dive in the next two years my 400K may turn into 300K (still hopefully having enough) if it does well maybe I will have 500K. Either way I'm done with work, it's time to live!
My short term goal to cut expenses is move to a smaller residence until May 2012. I believe this will yield about a $500 a month savings.
Current monthly housing costs: $1500
rent $1325
electric $175 average
water $0 paid by landlord
size of home: 1800 sqft 3 bedroom condo (way too big for us 4)
Future monthly housing costs: $1000
rent $800
electric $125 average
water $75
size of home: 1100 sqft 2 bedroom apartment
Main formula for success at early retirement = income high, expenses low.
My wake up call happened about 4 years ago and my wife has slowly agreed to retire early and save. Although she has never been a big spender. I would suggest to ensure you significant other has your goals in mind prior to marriage. I somehow got lucky in this regard as we never talked about financials the first 10 years of our marriage.
Our plan is to quit work in May 2012 when my son graduates from high school. If we stay on target we will have $400K saved up to live off of.
Our basic budget now:
Rent $1,325
Electric $125
Food $300
Kids Lunch $60
Day care $790
Internet $43
Cell 3 phones $96
Car gas $200
Car insurance $57
Extra spending $500
Total Bills $3,496
Our basic budget when we quit work:
Note: we are going to live with my wife's parents rent free
Rent $0
Electric $75
Food $300
Kids Lunch $60
Day care $0
Internet $43
Cell 2 phones $75
Car gas $100
Car insurance $200
Extra spending $190
Total Bills $1,000
Bare bones annual expenses $12,000 / .04 = $300,000 needed
If the stock market takes a dive in the next two years my 400K may turn into 300K (still hopefully having enough) if it does well maybe I will have 500K. Either way I'm done with work, it's time to live!
My short term goal to cut expenses is move to a smaller residence until May 2012. I believe this will yield about a $500 a month savings.
Current monthly housing costs: $1500
rent $1325
electric $175 average
water $0 paid by landlord
size of home: 1800 sqft 3 bedroom condo (way too big for us 4)
Future monthly housing costs: $1000
rent $800
electric $125 average
water $75
size of home: 1100 sqft 2 bedroom apartment
Main formula for success at early retirement = income high, expenses low.
We pool all our finances so by definition we will both become financially independent at the same moment. Our master plan involves a mix of passive investment income and urban homesteading. Right now we are both working full time, and my guess is that over time we will transition to retirement in phases where one of us drops to part time employment to do more at home, then stops working, then the other drops to part time.
We agree on the general principle of FI and the end-goal. However within that framework sometimes we come down differently on day-to-day decisions. I tend to bias resources to the financial stuff and she biases toward the DIY stuff. I tend to be more orthodox about frugality and she is more liberal about splurges to avoid burnout. This leads to some compromises, but sometimes that can be a helpful check-and-balance against taking anything to an unhealthy extreme.
I think, though, that it would be very difficult to pursue ERE or even ER if your partner weren't on board with the underlying concept.
We agree on the general principle of FI and the end-goal. However within that framework sometimes we come down differently on day-to-day decisions. I tend to bias resources to the financial stuff and she biases toward the DIY stuff. I tend to be more orthodox about frugality and she is more liberal about splurges to avoid burnout. This leads to some compromises, but sometimes that can be a helpful check-and-balance against taking anything to an unhealthy extreme.
I think, though, that it would be very difficult to pursue ERE or even ER if your partner weren't on board with the underlying concept.
-
George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
My wife doesn't work for an income, so it's up to me to supply income for both of us.
This means two things:
1) Must create a larger stash of wealth
2) Extreme measures must be negotiated
If I pushed for extreme measures, my wife would be on board, but it would generate some friction, so I've not chosen that route.
This means two things:
1) Must create a larger stash of wealth
2) Extreme measures must be negotiated
If I pushed for extreme measures, my wife would be on board, but it would generate some friction, so I've not chosen that route.
SO is no longer employed (her choice), but she is going back to school to try and fulfill some goals. For the time being, I work more than normal, and we have cut somewhat more than what we have been, but otherwise have been ok.
We still need to work on our joint finances, but for the time being it's all *mostly* separate, but I cover *mostly* everything...
We still need to work on our joint finances, but for the time being it's all *mostly* separate, but I cover *mostly* everything...
I'm not married
But if I ever do get married, I would plan on keeping the finances separate. Therefore this doesn't become an issue.
Obviously others have made other choices, however, I would argue that in a marriage, you don't need to have similiar goals and visions for early retirement IF you have a structure (such as separate finances) where one person's pursuit of their goals doesn't affect the other persons pursuit of their goals.
A marriage is never equal financially speaking. So, if one person works and the other doesn't, so what? As long as joint obligations are getting met, what's the big deal.
I'd argue that if you want to achieve ERE while married you should separate your finances and pursue this goal of yours. Clearly define what joint obligations, if any, you both need to meet, and then pursue ERE while meeting them. For example, you might have 1,000 rent payment. Well, you pay 500, your wife pays 500, and as long as it gets paid, who cares what you do with the rest of your money. Save it spend it, whatever.
This saves you the trouble of having to run anything past your husband/wife, and the clash of priorities that can follow.
But if I ever do get married, I would plan on keeping the finances separate. Therefore this doesn't become an issue.
Obviously others have made other choices, however, I would argue that in a marriage, you don't need to have similiar goals and visions for early retirement IF you have a structure (such as separate finances) where one person's pursuit of their goals doesn't affect the other persons pursuit of their goals.
A marriage is never equal financially speaking. So, if one person works and the other doesn't, so what? As long as joint obligations are getting met, what's the big deal.
I'd argue that if you want to achieve ERE while married you should separate your finances and pursue this goal of yours. Clearly define what joint obligations, if any, you both need to meet, and then pursue ERE while meeting them. For example, you might have 1,000 rent payment. Well, you pay 500, your wife pays 500, and as long as it gets paid, who cares what you do with the rest of your money. Save it spend it, whatever.
This saves you the trouble of having to run anything past your husband/wife, and the clash of priorities that can follow.
@jacob
that makes a strong case for not getting legally married. It would seem to be much more practical, legally and financially to be only religiously married, but not married in the eyes of the government.
It would also seem to be better emotionally, because you would know that your spouse is with you because they want to be, not because governmental and legal restrictions make it too painful for them to leave.
p.s. I've also heard of something called the 'marriage trap' in the tax code? Apparently there's some kind of tax penalty which means two single people pay less in taxes than those same people would if they're married, based on certain exemptions and deductions. perhaps somebody else knows more?
that makes a strong case for not getting legally married. It would seem to be much more practical, legally and financially to be only religiously married, but not married in the eyes of the government.
It would also seem to be better emotionally, because you would know that your spouse is with you because they want to be, not because governmental and legal restrictions make it too painful for them to leave.
p.s. I've also heard of something called the 'marriage trap' in the tax code? Apparently there's some kind of tax penalty which means two single people pay less in taxes than those same people would if they're married, based on certain exemptions and deductions. perhaps somebody else knows more?
-
George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
@pj - the marriage tax was repealed by the Bush tax cuts, but the Bush tax cuts expire this year. It may or may not reemerge for 2011, depending on legislation.
From a social engineering perspective, if you want to encourage the traditional family, then we shouldn't have a marriage tax.
From a personal perspective, we didn't wed until that specific tax was removed. I've been contemplating the merits of a "strategic divorce" if it's coming back...
From a social engineering perspective, if you want to encourage the traditional family, then we shouldn't have a marriage tax.
From a personal perspective, we didn't wed until that specific tax was removed. I've been contemplating the merits of a "strategic divorce" if it's coming back...
Being the major wage earner right now I'm also the one in charge of most of the bills and expenses. SO and I have been together long enough that to get married at this point feels like just paperwork. He is in med school so his job is to study, his GI bill is his to spend however he wants though he usually pays the the power bill with it (he is national guard so its not nearly as much as for active duty). 50% of my income goes into savings which isn't too bad since I only make about 25K/yr pre tax (his tuition is also covered thank god). After he establishes his practice I should be close to my individual FI goal though I know our eventual lifestyle goals will diverge as time goes on. He is content to live simply right now, even though I know he wants more. The deal as it stands right now is that I take care of the bills now, he takes care of them later. I will be able to stay home and have my own cash flow to spend as I want. We mostly keep our finances seperate and after the disaster of mixing finances in my first marriage I would like to see things stay that way.
I just cant seem to convince him that the 900sqft 2br condo I own is enough for 3 (my 5 yo adopted neice also lives with us). I think its a little tight, mostly because my yard is fairly small and I would like a much larger garden. He accepts it for now because it's paid off and has no association dues which cuts our bills significantly.
I'm just counting down to graduation so we can have a child of our own and I can quit work to home school and get down to the work I really enjoy.
I just cant seem to convince him that the 900sqft 2br condo I own is enough for 3 (my 5 yo adopted neice also lives with us). I think its a little tight, mostly because my yard is fairly small and I would like a much larger garden. He accepts it for now because it's paid off and has no association dues which cuts our bills significantly.
I'm just counting down to graduation so we can have a child of our own and I can quit work to home school and get down to the work I really enjoy.
It wasn't something the DW and I discussed right away because I didn't realize there was an alternative. I found the early retirement site in '04 and it snowballed from there. The DW is on board for the most part. I have the greatest urgency between the two of us. I don't know that she wants to quit ASAP, per se, but she likes the idea of having alternatives to working full-time.
I don't see how it would happen for us if both of us weren't committed to living below our means.
I think the hardest part after committing to get out from under the man is deciding how hard to turn the screws. I'm willing to go farther than DW but I am fortunate to have as much buy-in as I do.
I don't see how it would happen for us if both of us weren't committed to living below our means.
I think the hardest part after committing to get out from under the man is deciding how hard to turn the screws. I'm willing to go farther than DW but I am fortunate to have as much buy-in as I do.
-
landedgentry13
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:03 pm
I have lived with DGF for many years, and I would very much like to hear more about the "one person is responsible for the other's debt" issue. How on earth can I be held responsible for any debt that does not have my name attached to it?
I'll need an answer to this before I even consider getting married...
I'll need an answer to this before I even consider getting married...
-
Frugal Vegan Mom
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:24 pm
- Contact:
@landedgentry - do you mean responsible legally or just feeling you are responsible as a spouse for your partner's debt?
I don't know about the legal part, but in my situation, the debt we have are my husband's massive student loans. I feel responsible for paying them off because it has always been agreed that when we have kids I will stay at home at least part time, then living off his income. So it seems fair to me to use my income now to help pay off the debt.
Every couple is different. We have combined our finances 100% from the beginning and I handle all of it and know where every dollar goes. Works for us.
I have to note though I wouldn't feel the same if it was credit card debt or some sort of debt I thought was irresponsible....can't imagine marrying a guy like that in the first place!
K
http://www.frugalveganmom.wordpress.com
I don't know about the legal part, but in my situation, the debt we have are my husband's massive student loans. I feel responsible for paying them off because it has always been agreed that when we have kids I will stay at home at least part time, then living off his income. So it seems fair to me to use my income now to help pay off the debt.
Every couple is different. We have combined our finances 100% from the beginning and I handle all of it and know where every dollar goes. Works for us.
I have to note though I wouldn't feel the same if it was credit card debt or some sort of debt I thought was irresponsible....can't imagine marrying a guy like that in the first place!
K
http://www.frugalveganmom.wordpress.com
-
AlexOliver
- Posts: 461
- Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm