School problems
School problems
Hi all, I just wanted to get people's opinions on essay writing services. I was reviewing my nephew's homework for him at the weekend and he happened to mention that a lot of his peers are using [mod edit: ... essay writing ... ] sites to get their papers in by the deadline, and he was wondering if he should use one. I admit I wasn't too sure what to say. My nephew's always had a great education and I know he's got a good head on his shoulders, but it seems unfair that others are getting ahead by using these services - and managing to keep up a social life at the same time. What do you all think?
Re: School problems
As a young student I really bought into the warnings in Cliff's notes that said you'd not get the education you dearly needed if you didn't read the real book. It made sense, you are taking English, so read your Shakespeare. So I worked hard and tried to become competent.
But now that I'm old and cynical, I noticed I've been used by a lot of successful people who were good at hiring other people to do work they personally could not do. It wasn't the ability to do the specialized job (in my case design electronics) that was powerful but rather knowing the need for a widget and knowing how to get somebody else to create it.
So I don't think it's the end of the world some of these kids farm out their essay writing. It could mean they'll rot in their parents' basements after college playing video games because they're lazy. Or maybe they'll employ (utilize, exploit whatever) a bunch of talented people who actually learned how to do something well to make millions.
In other words it could mean very bad things or good things. This thread is related to Jacobs comments on a society fixated on specialization. Is it so bad to not be good at something and then hire an expert? I guess it depends on what you're trying to do.
But now that I'm old and cynical, I noticed I've been used by a lot of successful people who were good at hiring other people to do work they personally could not do. It wasn't the ability to do the specialized job (in my case design electronics) that was powerful but rather knowing the need for a widget and knowing how to get somebody else to create it.
So I don't think it's the end of the world some of these kids farm out their essay writing. It could mean they'll rot in their parents' basements after college playing video games because they're lazy. Or maybe they'll employ (utilize, exploit whatever) a bunch of talented people who actually learned how to do something well to make millions.
In other words it could mean very bad things or good things. This thread is related to Jacobs comments on a society fixated on specialization. Is it so bad to not be good at something and then hire an expert? I guess it depends on what you're trying to do.
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jennypenny
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Re: School problems
How old is your nephew?
If he's in college, this thread tangentially applies ... viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3687&hilit=disagreeable+system
Since you asked ...
--Rationalizing that other kids are doing it so he should, too, doesn't really hold water with me. It's a blanket rationalization that gets employed too often to justify everything from cheating to overspending.
--Writing assignments, however pointless, improve reading comprehension and communication skills. It's hard to say when he's young what kind of work he might pursue when he's our age. He might need those skills. I'd argue they're important life skills--especially reading comprehension. I wouldn't encourage someone to farm out their math homework because they don't like math, either.
--I personally don't give a crap about grades or structured achievement. I'm more impressed with personal integrity. I think, in the end, it's what helps you sleep at night. If it were my nephew, I'd encourage him to hold onto his.
Sorry, stepping down now ...
If he's in college, this thread tangentially applies ... viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3687&hilit=disagreeable+system
Since you asked ...
--Rationalizing that other kids are doing it so he should, too, doesn't really hold water with me. It's a blanket rationalization that gets employed too often to justify everything from cheating to overspending.
--Writing assignments, however pointless, improve reading comprehension and communication skills. It's hard to say when he's young what kind of work he might pursue when he's our age. He might need those skills. I'd argue they're important life skills--especially reading comprehension. I wouldn't encourage someone to farm out their math homework because they don't like math, either.
--I personally don't give a crap about grades or structured achievement. I'm more impressed with personal integrity. I think, in the end, it's what helps you sleep at night. If it were my nephew, I'd encourage him to hold onto his.
Sorry, stepping down now ...
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jacob
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Re: School problems
"Education is what's left after you forgotten everything you learned in school".
Most importantly, writing essays and isolating "x" is only the means to an end. The end of the school system is to figure out who the students are. Those who learn to learn come out educated. (Few come out educated.) Most learn to follow boring procedures and come out ready for cubicle work. A few enterprising students learn that you skirt the rules and/or that you can pay others to follow boring procedures. They become entrepreneurs, businessmen, and criminals, ha!
Like any human institution, the schooling system is by no means perfect nor is it efficient. I think it's important to keep in mind that whenever a backdoor to grades develop, teachers are not naively ignorant of that fact. Students pay for essays. Teachers in turn pay for essay screeners to filter out cheaters. That arms race is one consequence. Another consequence is the development of an informal review system. Students may think they're still getting graded, but what's happening is that grades become meaningless and sorting now happens based on personal recommendations. Everybody might get an A, but not everybody gets a recommendation. If everybody gets a recommendation, there are also subtle ways around that.
A lot of learning can take place outside of school(*). I didn't learn to write well from writing essays. My essays used to be crap. It wasn't until I got online and started arguing on forums that my writing took off. My essays doubled and tripled in size. My teachers didn't understand why. One of them figured I was going to end up a journalist because of my writing-style. That style was never taught. When my senior HS teacher added a few bonus questions after an essay about what could be done to enhance our English education, my answer to those questions was longer than the essay. In summary: "Teach us _useful_ writing skills: How to write a letter. How to write an article. How to write a book. Enough of these bubble gum format essays." Like with almost any teacher caught with a student complaining about the inadequacy of modern education, she happily helped me out with access to more books. But the classes didn't change. Because they're regulated from high above.
(*) Emphasize _can_, not will.
I'm torn. On one hand, I hate imposing useless exercises on people killing their enthusiasm to read and write. On the other hand, as jp said, reading comprehension is super-important. About ten percent of ERE book reviews lament that the book is too hard, too long, or that it can't be read without a dictionary. These reviewers all failed basic literacy as far as I'm concerned. If reading the ERE book is hard, it is likely that most reading requires actual effort when reading should feel more like talking or breathing. My English (my second language) education was another failure. Our freshman science books at the university were all in English. Some students complained that it was not fair to demand second language reading comprehension for technical matters. Perhaps they were right, because ALL we ever read in the K-12 system were poems, prose, and newspaper articles. Another regulated failure.
Getting back to the original question. The main reason HS essays are hard and take a long time is that the students are simply not very good readers or writers, yet. A good writer, such as the people who get paid to write essays for HS students, can hammer out a few of these each hour. They're ten times better than the average HS student. Same with math. A math-literate person can solve HS math questions ten times faster than the HS-student. And, of course, a person who is willing to break some simple rules can do it a hundred times faster that the HS-students slaving away. Many students never learn that lesson until much later.
Most importantly, writing essays and isolating "x" is only the means to an end. The end of the school system is to figure out who the students are. Those who learn to learn come out educated. (Few come out educated.) Most learn to follow boring procedures and come out ready for cubicle work. A few enterprising students learn that you skirt the rules and/or that you can pay others to follow boring procedures. They become entrepreneurs, businessmen, and criminals, ha!
Like any human institution, the schooling system is by no means perfect nor is it efficient. I think it's important to keep in mind that whenever a backdoor to grades develop, teachers are not naively ignorant of that fact. Students pay for essays. Teachers in turn pay for essay screeners to filter out cheaters. That arms race is one consequence. Another consequence is the development of an informal review system. Students may think they're still getting graded, but what's happening is that grades become meaningless and sorting now happens based on personal recommendations. Everybody might get an A, but not everybody gets a recommendation. If everybody gets a recommendation, there are also subtle ways around that.
A lot of learning can take place outside of school(*). I didn't learn to write well from writing essays. My essays used to be crap. It wasn't until I got online and started arguing on forums that my writing took off. My essays doubled and tripled in size. My teachers didn't understand why. One of them figured I was going to end up a journalist because of my writing-style. That style was never taught. When my senior HS teacher added a few bonus questions after an essay about what could be done to enhance our English education, my answer to those questions was longer than the essay. In summary: "Teach us _useful_ writing skills: How to write a letter. How to write an article. How to write a book. Enough of these bubble gum format essays." Like with almost any teacher caught with a student complaining about the inadequacy of modern education, she happily helped me out with access to more books. But the classes didn't change. Because they're regulated from high above.
(*) Emphasize _can_, not will.
I'm torn. On one hand, I hate imposing useless exercises on people killing their enthusiasm to read and write. On the other hand, as jp said, reading comprehension is super-important. About ten percent of ERE book reviews lament that the book is too hard, too long, or that it can't be read without a dictionary. These reviewers all failed basic literacy as far as I'm concerned. If reading the ERE book is hard, it is likely that most reading requires actual effort when reading should feel more like talking or breathing. My English (my second language) education was another failure. Our freshman science books at the university were all in English. Some students complained that it was not fair to demand second language reading comprehension for technical matters. Perhaps they were right, because ALL we ever read in the K-12 system were poems, prose, and newspaper articles. Another regulated failure.
Getting back to the original question. The main reason HS essays are hard and take a long time is that the students are simply not very good readers or writers, yet. A good writer, such as the people who get paid to write essays for HS students, can hammer out a few of these each hour. They're ten times better than the average HS student. Same with math. A math-literate person can solve HS math questions ten times faster than the HS-student. And, of course, a person who is willing to break some simple rules can do it a hundred times faster that the HS-students slaving away. Many students never learn that lesson until much later.
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jennypenny
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Re: School problems
Are they really useless? Is it any different than making the student do endless math problems to help them internalize a particular formula/function so they can move on to learning more complex math? Or even spending countless hours in a batting cage or on a driving range?jacob wrote:On one hand, I hate imposing useless exercises on people killing their enthusiasm to read and write.
Wax on, wax off. (Isn't that your favorite analogy?
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jacob
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Re: School problems
@jp - We don't disagree about the ends. We may disagree about the means.
Who decided that exclusively writing a essays analyzing short pieces of fiction was the best way to teach reading and writing skills? Why not spend 15 years on the equally single-minded task of writing letters or reading end-user license agreements. One after the other.
Why the focus on the essay?
Why the focus on fiction?
I can answer the first question: Because that's what they do in higher-ed in the humanities department; that's where the teachers come from; and that's apparently the only thing they know how to do(?!)
Perhaps it's just that I reached the barrier of diminishing returns when it came to the essay writing exercise around the 7th grade, but one can go only so far with just one dominant exercise.
Who decided that exclusively writing a essays analyzing short pieces of fiction was the best way to teach reading and writing skills? Why not spend 15 years on the equally single-minded task of writing letters or reading end-user license agreements. One after the other.
Why the focus on the essay?
Why the focus on fiction?
I can answer the first question: Because that's what they do in higher-ed in the humanities department; that's where the teachers come from; and that's apparently the only thing they know how to do(?!)
Perhaps it's just that I reached the barrier of diminishing returns when it came to the essay writing exercise around the 7th grade, but one can go only so far with just one dominant exercise.
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jacob
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Re: School problems
I'm reminded of the following allegory...
Background: Your kid wants to go to college so he needs to graduate with an above average GPA.
Kid: I'm not going to study any more. Our teacher grades on a curve so by definition half the students will get above average grades and half will get below average grades. Since it's all luck anyway there's no point in spending time and effort studying when I could be partying.
Parent: It's not luck. It's talent and effort. Studying changes the probability of the outcome. Kids who study tend to get good grades and kids who don't tend to get bad grades.
Kid: They don't do well because they study. Simple statistics predict that some will do well simply because they were lucky several times in a row. It's the law of large numbers. Talent has nothing to do with it.
Parent: The law of large numbers has nothing to do with it. You can't just look at what a large number of your buddies have done over the past 5 years. The law of large numbers pertains to what YOU do over the next 50 years.
Kid: Oh, I didn't think of that.
Parent: Exactly!
Background: Your kid wants to go to college so he needs to graduate with an above average GPA.
Kid: I'm not going to study any more. Our teacher grades on a curve so by definition half the students will get above average grades and half will get below average grades. Since it's all luck anyway there's no point in spending time and effort studying when I could be partying.
Parent: It's not luck. It's talent and effort. Studying changes the probability of the outcome. Kids who study tend to get good grades and kids who don't tend to get bad grades.
Kid: They don't do well because they study. Simple statistics predict that some will do well simply because they were lucky several times in a row. It's the law of large numbers. Talent has nothing to do with it.
Parent: The law of large numbers has nothing to do with it. You can't just look at what a large number of your buddies have done over the past 5 years. The law of large numbers pertains to what YOU do over the next 50 years.
Kid: Oh, I didn't think of that.
Parent: Exactly!
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Devil's Advocate
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Re: School problems
OP : Ask yourself : are you comfortable cheating? Then ask yourself : are you comfortable teaching a child that it's okay to cheat?
If the answer's No, then that's it.
If the answer's Yes, I don't much mind this given the circumstances, that's when you start evaluating chances of getting caught and the efficacy of the system, all that.
My personal take : I would think 5 times before considering something dishonest (no matter how mildly dishonest), but I would think 500 times before getting an impressionable child to do it.
Which is exactly what you're doing--thinking VERY hard about this, that's why you ask this here--so we're probably on the same page!
If the answer's No, then that's it.
If the answer's Yes, I don't much mind this given the circumstances, that's when you start evaluating chances of getting caught and the efficacy of the system, all that.
My personal take : I would think 5 times before considering something dishonest (no matter how mildly dishonest), but I would think 500 times before getting an impressionable child to do it.
Which is exactly what you're doing--thinking VERY hard about this, that's why you ask this here--so we're probably on the same page!
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jennypenny
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Re: School problems
Most curricula have changed. I can't remember the last time my kids wrote a book report. The essays assigned nowadays are mostly persuasive or related to scientific fields (closer to what I would call technical writing). Even DS's required HS writing course only had one assignment related to a work of fiction. The kind of essays you and I were forced to write are limited to elective classes now for the most part. What we think of as "English" class has been separated into two distinct classes--Language Arts and Literature. (at least where I am, so I'm assuming everywhere)jacob wrote:Who decided that exclusively writing a essays analyzing short pieces of fiction was the best way to teach reading and writing skills? Why not spend 15 years on the equally single-minded task of writing letters or reading end-user license agreements. One after the other.
Why the focus on the essay?
Why the focus on fiction?
Re: School problems
Good for them. I love reading, but high school almost broke me with all the "classic" fiction I had to read.jennypenny wrote: Most curricula have changed. I can't remember the last time my kids wrote a book report. The essays assigned nowadays are mostly persuasive or related to scientific fields (closer to what I would call technical writing). Even DS's required HS writing course only had one assignment related to a work of fiction. The kind of essays you and I were forced to write are limited to elective classes now for the most part. What we think of as "English" class has been separated into two distinct classes--Language Arts and Literature. (at least where I am, so I'm assuming everywhere)
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jennypenny
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Re: School problems
I'm not sure how I feel about the change. I'm all for changing a curriculum based solely on the fictional works of dead white European men. I don't think they should abandon all literature though.
Re: School problems
This reminds me of a moral question/dilemma posed in the board game Scruples.
I'm not going to give an opinion because everyone will JUDGE me by my answer....especially on a forum full of int "J's".
I'm not going to give an opinion because everyone will JUDGE me by my answer....especially on a forum full of int "J's".
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jennypenny
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Re: School problems
1taskaday wrote:I'm not going to give an opinion because everyone will JUDGE me by my answer....especially on a forum full of int "J's".
I guess I'm being a little harsh. Occupational hazard. It's just that some of what I see pains me. It's particularly hard when I'm editing work from someone who's obviously very bright with clever ideas, but who can't articulate them well.
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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: School problems
Education is now including more informational texts: http://www.corestandards.org/ELA-Litera ... ideration/. The link is to the Common Core, the reading and math curricula being used by most states now. If you like this let your representatives know, Common Core is under attack by conservatives and being removed in some states.Who decided that exclusively writing a essays analyzing short pieces of fiction was the best way to teach reading and writing skills? Why not spend 15 years on the equally single-minded task of writing letters or reading end-user license agreements. One after the other.
To answer the original question, I don't think cheating or approving of cheating is the way to go. Has anyone told the teacher/administration that writing services are being used? Most districts are afraid of a cheating scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanta_Pu ... ng_scandal) and will take action.
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saving-10-years
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Re: School problems
I'm reading into the OP that the nephew's friends are not doing the work that would prepare them to write the essay, so its not only the task/format of 'essay-writing' that is in question but whether its okay to out-source or avoid the underlying work (study). So, agreeing with JPs line on important skills for the future, if the nephew aspires to college and is in school currently then this is a short term gain (meeting deadline) but won't help with getting the habit of study or understanding the topic and academic conventions. At some stage the nephew could come seriously unstuck. If in college already then at worst if they get caught, and they are shown to have used this sort of service persistently they won't be awarded their degree. At the least they would be asked to redo the work and have their mark (very likely) reduced to the bare minimum no matter how well they did for themselves (that would be the case in the UK anyhow). If they hoped for an academic career then its a very poor startegy, if they simply want to clear school with minimum effort then it may be worth the risk.
The reason why essay writing services are popular is that students who simply cut and paste off the internet, if they are submitting work online or in digital form are being picked up through plagiarism tools such as Turnitin. Or they get flagged if they copy text from other students using systems such as CopyCatch. But if you get someone to write an essay for you which is 'original', so bespoke for you, then it won't be flagged. (Although tests of this theory are not encouraging about the quality of the essays produced or the originality - see http://submit.ac.uk/en_gb/resources/blo ... -uncovered)
What you are requesting need not be an essay. It could be any work which the student is asked to do. So the question reads to me as one of 'His friends are taking short cuts why can't he do the same?' Well, if he does not mind taking the risks and does not care to learn what the essay is trying to test then there is no reason. It will help if he has a teacher who is so unaware of what his normal writing style is that they won't notice if the language in this work is suddenly unfamiliar to them.
From an ERE point of view if he learns to write his own essays (do his own work) then he not only saves on the costs of an essay writing service but could in turn sell his essays to them. They regularly advertise for essays which score more than xx%.
The reason why essay writing services are popular is that students who simply cut and paste off the internet, if they are submitting work online or in digital form are being picked up through plagiarism tools such as Turnitin. Or they get flagged if they copy text from other students using systems such as CopyCatch. But if you get someone to write an essay for you which is 'original', so bespoke for you, then it won't be flagged. (Although tests of this theory are not encouraging about the quality of the essays produced or the originality - see http://submit.ac.uk/en_gb/resources/blo ... -uncovered)
What you are requesting need not be an essay. It could be any work which the student is asked to do. So the question reads to me as one of 'His friends are taking short cuts why can't he do the same?' Well, if he does not mind taking the risks and does not care to learn what the essay is trying to test then there is no reason. It will help if he has a teacher who is so unaware of what his normal writing style is that they won't notice if the language in this work is suddenly unfamiliar to them.
From an ERE point of view if he learns to write his own essays (do his own work) then he not only saves on the costs of an essay writing service but could in turn sell his essays to them. They regularly advertise for essays which score more than xx%.
Re: School problems
For what it's worth, I cheated my way through the majority of my undergrad and don't regret it (cheating on tests, copying math homework, etc). I obviously missed out on learning things here and there, but I would argue that learning how to manipulate a system is as valuable a skill as any of those taught in the classes I was taking. I've forgotten just about everything I have ever been taught anyway, and I think the value of formal education comes in a different form.
While I cheated on tests and assignments, I actually ran a small essay writing business on the side, so I guess you could look at it as being even in the end...
That said, I was one of the lucky ones in that school was generally pretty easy for me. I imagine doing these things could affect others in a more negative way. I'm a big proponent of the 'fake it til you make it' method, but at some point you do have to have what it takes to 'make it'.
While I cheated on tests and assignments, I actually ran a small essay writing business on the side, so I guess you could look at it as being even in the end...
That said, I was one of the lucky ones in that school was generally pretty easy for me. I imagine doing these things could affect others in a more negative way. I'm a big proponent of the 'fake it til you make it' method, but at some point you do have to have what it takes to 'make it'.
Re: School problems
Well, if one measures "getting ahead" purely by grades, then yes it is unfair. But if one measures it by actually learning something and practicing a skill, your nephew is running laps around them by doing his own work and will be in a much better position in the long run.Lou wrote:My nephew's always had a great education and I know he's got a good head on his shoulders, but it seems unfair that others are getting ahead by using these services - and managing to keep up a social life at the same time. What do you all think?
In college, I can't say I never cheated. As an engineering major my workload was extremely heavy at times, and I had to prioritize what was important for me to learn and what was not. So I learned to pick my battles. Bumming the occasional answer off of a friend for a random homework assignment is part of life. Pushing the limits on the cheat sheet allowed for the test is a recognized challenge virtually encouraged by some teachers. Never opening a lame cultural studies book but getting A's on essays by spouting back what the politicized professors want to hear is actually educational in its own right.
But for me paying someone to do work for you is a step too far. And I certainly would never encourage it in a kid. Justified or not, I believe it's important not to cultivate that kind of laziness and/or cynicism in young people.
Re: School problems
If you take it in a "ERE" perspective, actually paying to get home assignments done for you looks like a bad move.
Learning to write a satisfying essay with the least possible effort is a immensely valuable skill. There are tricks to improve this skill, and unfortunately I learned none of them from school.
Among them, Mind maps. With them, you can summarize a complex text within minutes. You can articulate thoughts quickly and spend more time on actually writing the essay. I'm not sure they teach them at school, but it is a tool to learn.
Another trick is to simply talk about the essay with relatives or friends with the same assignment, if they're willing to do so, then write the essay on your own.
There are so many practical or more "meta" tricks to be learned through doing assignments yourself, I can understand cheating, but paying is only good for spoiled and lazy kids.
Learning to write a satisfying essay with the least possible effort is a immensely valuable skill. There are tricks to improve this skill, and unfortunately I learned none of them from school.
Among them, Mind maps. With them, you can summarize a complex text within minutes. You can articulate thoughts quickly and spend more time on actually writing the essay. I'm not sure they teach them at school, but it is a tool to learn.
Another trick is to simply talk about the essay with relatives or friends with the same assignment, if they're willing to do so, then write the essay on your own.
There are so many practical or more "meta" tricks to be learned through doing assignments yourself, I can understand cheating, but paying is only good for spoiled and lazy kids.
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Riggerjack
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Re: School problems
What's this world coming to?!?
Why back in my day, bullying nerds into doing your homework, or manipulating them with insincere flirtation was how you got your essays written. Once you reduce your cheating to economic trade, it loses the personal touch.
I think that's where the line is drawn. Today's kids are too lazy to even cheat properly!
Oh, and get off my lawn!
Why back in my day, bullying nerds into doing your homework, or manipulating them with insincere flirtation was how you got your essays written. Once you reduce your cheating to economic trade, it loses the personal touch.
I think that's where the line is drawn. Today's kids are too lazy to even cheat properly!
Oh, and get off my lawn!