Couples Trouble and ERE

[Retiree]

How many of you have run into “couples trouble” (or somewhat-older-children trouble) because of your ERE, and how did you deal with it?

If you’re into ERE, and married (or in a serious relationship), you’re in for trouble unless your partner also is a ‘believer’. If she isn’t an EREer too, you’ll then either need to forget about ERE, or else forget about your partner, or else try your damnedest best to convert her. (To a lesser extent that would apply to somewhat older children as well.)

My specific case : Children too young to really miss elaborate holidays and the et ceteras (or, more precisely, to raise too big and too protracted a stink about those things they do miss, like eating out every other day and ordering stuff and buying all kinds of things—and then one can always compromise once in a while to keep them happy, even as one gently tries to let them understand ERE values). As far as wife is concerned, I was very, very chary when I actually took the plunge and retired. As it happens, all good, more or less. Wife is an EREer (as far as intellectual agreement goes), but sorely misses some of the doodahs, and sometimes lapses into her shopaholicism. But we manage, because wife usually agrees, sometimes readily and sometimes grudgingly, that she perhaps oughtn’t have gone on that buying spree. And once in a while we do make a conscious decision to make an exception, and go splurge. So all good, some blips in the budgeting notwithstanding.

What about you? How have your relationships weathered ERE?

I’m very curious about one other thing : Those of you who are single, does ERE cramp your style much? Or how do you guys manage?

[Tyler9000]

I'm lucky to have a DW who introduced me to ERE. She was the one reading YMOYL, and I was the dedicated (but unhappy) careerist on the rapidly accelerating treadmill. Maybe she should write a guide to converting the lost.

These days, our largest source of ERE stress is probably over-thinking it. We've got the financial side pretty much handled, but worrying too much about the unknowable future, fighting the one more year syndrome, trying to coordinate two exits simultaneously, and generally letting the idea of ERE harden us towards our current jobs and consume our thoughts adds more stress than it really should. At some point you're just ready. We're very close to accepting that.

I personally have a tough time imagining working towards ERE with a spouse that doesn't have the same goal.

[1taskaday]

I think this could be a huge issue between couples and was for us in the beginning.

A simple example of what I'm talking about will explain it a lot better.

I burst my ass cycling to and from work and save 3 pounds worth of petrol a day.(This is in the beginning when I was "extreme" not so much now).My DH might drive 30 mins to the driving range to hit some golf balls???

This is just an example of how petty the whole thing can get until you pull back and realise everybody is different and has a right to live the way that they want.

When I accepted this, and to stop energy-sucking squabbles: we just separated our finances. We both pay equal bills and equal kids stuff. The rest of our earnings are our own. Hence I work loads of overtime now and am getting to my goal of FI quicker.

We halved the mortgage (bank guy thought I was crazy), and I pay my half down a lot quicker.

I want to have enough to give up work(the fastest that I can).

Now my family laugh and point out that in the end our finances are "all-one" anyways and I know this.I would never deny my kids education etc,if I had a stash and he didn't BUT psychologically it works and there is never any disagreements about money anymore. We have peace in our home with both our wishes accommodated.

Whenever he wants to make a big "man" purchase like a "can't live without" power-washer or "ride on lawnmower”, I say "you go right ahead sweetie, nothing to do with me, I’m not working 3 months extra for that".

Funny how it never gets bought, even though it's absolutely vital at the time.
I think over time he has changed towards my view of consumerism but at his own speed.

[7Wannabe5]

Retiree said: If you’re into ERE, and married (or in a serious relationship), you’re in for trouble unless your partner also is a ‘believer’. If she isn’t an EREer too, you’ll then either need to forget about ERE, or else forget about your partner, or else try your damnedest best to convert her.

Well, marriage itself is not easy. The three main things people fight about are money, sex and other people. If you take a radical stance in any of these realms, you are really going to have to be prepared to stand by your convictions.

I've always been very thrifty but never exerted much effort to make money either. So, I'm generally inclined towards the intermittent work or "Possum' Living" model rather than total FI. I married and had kids relatively young but even in my young adult years my lifestyle was that I lived very cheaply in a student co-op with 30 other kids (one of my housemates currently runs Craigslist-lol) and saved up enough money working part-time to just lounge about reading and knitting for 6 months when I was 21. My first marriage was to a starving artist/hipster type (total doppelganger for Van Gogh's self-portrait as young man) and my thrift-style became more in alignment with Amy Dacyzyn "The Tightwad Gazette" because my challenge was how to stay home with my kids, provide them with a decent lifestyle while remaining married to somebody who was not at all interested in being engaged in any aspect of money management or making yet was to be in the role of primary bread winner. So, we hardly ever fought about money because we hardly ever had enough to fight about and he let me make all the decisions and deal with all the challenges. The one thing we did fight about is that he would frequently quit working without any warning and then we would have to live off of whatever savings I had managed to accumulate for up to maybe a year. If he had devoted himself to his art or had been at all handy or helpful (towards the end of this marriage, I had an imaginary alternate husband who I named Hank and admired greatly because he could build shelves) during these phases of unemployment I would have been cool about it but mostly he was just depressed and unwilling to seek treatment. Anyways, that marriage was mostly a failure but my thrifty-Mom efforts in relationship to my kids were mostly a success. They are young adults now and though they still complain/tease me about the time I bought 100 lbs of oatmeal for $2 at a food auction, they both say that they had a fun childhood and they are both interesting people to chat with over coffee (due perhaps in part to my strict policy that they could do nothing after 8PM except read books.)

Anyways, my first marriage did last almost 19 years, then I dated and had boyfriends for about 6 years while supporting myself and partially supporting my kids (my ex took off after we split and I didn't even bother to chase him down for child support) during their college years by selling used books on the internet in partnership with my sister. I definitely did not put in 40 hours a week at this pursuit and my net worth stayed about the same. My financial relationship with men during this phase was mostly that they took me out to eat or on fun outings or trips and they paid for everything because they insisted on paying for everything because mostly they were driving a restored 79 Corvette or a Lexus or a brand new Honda touring cycle and I was driving a 10 year old Mazda that I bought from a Russian guy who bought it at an auction and it got crunched by a snowplow and I didn't bother to get it fixed etc. etc. etc. The reason this happened isn't because I discriminated against men who did not want to pay for stuff. It was because I was so afraid of ending up having to be the one who was running everything again or once again ending up with a husband who was "prettier" than me, I made a strict rule for myself that I would only date men who really, really, really wanted to date me and this resulted in me mostly dating men who were older and wealthier than me.

Eventually, I became bored/unfulfilled with this lifestyle and decided that I wanted to make a home again. So, then I thought that my two choices were either start working towards buying myself a Grandma-cottage-with-garden and live by myself or get married again. I was still debating this matter when I met and fell in love with my current husband. He is a practicing, although extremely liberal, Muslim so he couldn't have sex without getting married (religiously but not legally) and the Islamic marriage contract (literally translated as Contract-for-Sex) requires that the female receive something of financial value. So, I asked for the agricultural rights to his suburban house and we started living together two years ago. He is retired with a semi-passive (has easy-to-maintain rental property) income of around $50,000 a year and he owns his house outright. We are both very thrifty but in different ways. For instance, I am better at doing without creature comforts but he is better at fixing things. My challenge in this relationship is keeping my own little financial planet in its own orbit around the massive gravitational pull of his larger one and not allowing myself to completely default to letting him pay for everything AND be in charge of everything because he has a more forceful personality than me too.

[saving-10-years]

@7Wannabe5 - liked your story. My DH could fill the brief of your imaginary Hank husband - he can build shelves, caravan and pretty much most other things that are not mechanical (not a car fixer). Idesign it and he makes it. Together we are a very good team and that is one of the most enjoyable things about retirement.

The balance is shifting away from me making almost all the money _and_ almost all the decisions (and those in a rush). He does not like making decisions - this dates from before I knew him - as he finds bureauratic problems/barriers very hard to overcome. This can result in no action at all. I am probably best described as an enthusiastic problem solver, so given some time and not being worn out with work-stress I really enjoy overcoming problems.

We are both comfortable being frugal and saving money although not good (yet) at investing. Son is good at taking care of things that he has and does not feel any urge to spend money. He likes computer games but is happy to buy ones after the start appearing on the second hand market. He is not fashion or brand conscious but has a style that he likes. And if he likes it then he will wear it until it does not fit or its got too many holes to ignore. As he has a number of allergies he is reconciled that he will need to learn to cook most meals from scratch before he start university. He's also not into cars - which is an enormous expense for his peers (driving lessons, car, insurance, fuel, repairs). Generally we are in tune on the whole ERE front. Although DS feels that its a tad early for him as he does not have a job yet he has a friend who is spending all his available cash (and savings) on gimmicks, alcohol and smoking and clearly DS has no intention fin following that model. He also takes good care of his possessions (not obsessively so but I realise that for many of his friends the DVD/game never makes it back into the case, the kit never has all its peices after the box is first opened). That helps too.

[Dragline]

This is one of those topics that's bigger than the confines of this forum. Whatever attitude you have towards wealth and consumption (ERE-style or otherwise), you're going to be very happy or very sorry if your partner does or does not share it, or at least come to some compromise that doesn't involve resentment. As 7W5 pointed out, disagreement on money issues is probably the #1 destroyer of relationships. Better to sort that out a bit before you get too serious.

I'm fortunate to have found someone who shares similar values and attitudes towards wealth, which is essentially that its good to have, but not good to waste (as in morally reprehensible not good). We were both hopelessly sunk in student loan debt when we married, came out together after throwing every extra dollar against it and never looked back, which I think strengthened our relationship.

She said to me last week, "I see you bought a new Johnny Cash shirt (meaning a solid black button-down)". I said "Yes, but it was on sale." She said, "That's Ok honey. I think you can afford to buy a new shirt every once in awhile."

I'm very lucky. And very grateful. In a burnin' ring of fire.

[Retiree]

Dragline, 7Wannabe5 : Agreed, this goes beyond just ERE. Any fundamental disagreements can potentially try a marriage or relationship.

In fact, 7Wannabe5, I found your story very touching and inspiring. It can really be a tightwalk—unlike, say, religion (at least, religion of the non-extremely-vigorous kind, as it actually turns out to be for most people)—to simply respect differences, agree to disagree, that sort of thing, as this actually affects almost every part of our day-to-day life. Good luck!

And saving-10-years, like your own story so happily points out (and yours, Dragline), when both are fully committed are, as you and your partner are, that helps brings you even closer. You’re lucky that way. As are you too, Tyler9000.

Sometimes I do worry about the children, though. When they’re older, if they don’t buy in to our way of thinking , they may well resent what might then appear to be big gaps in their lives vis-à-vis their peers. (And children seldom do agree with parents, it seems to me, even with their non-iconoclast, non-weird choices, leave aside extreme lifestyle choices like ERE.) And after all, we've kind of pushed our children into this without really consulting them--they're too young.

Good to know you don’t find your dating prospects cramped by ERE, Tosca. If that’s so in general, as opposed to just a specific experience, I must say young people are less shallow now than I remember them/us being, back when we were younger!

[jennypenny]

Sometimes I do worry about the children, though. When they’re older, if they don’t buy in to our way of thinking , they may well resent what might then appear to be big gaps in their lives vis-à-vis their peers. (And children seldom do agree with parents, it seems to me, even with their non-iconoclast, non-weird choices, leave aside extreme lifestyle choices like ERE.) And after all, we've kind of pushed our children into this without really consulting them--they're too young.

Not to derail, but how are we pushing our children into ERE? We're the parents. We get to decide those things. Suppose we were typical Stepford parents spending money on every enrichment we could find for our kids ... would you still describe us a 'pushing' our lifestyle on them? To my mind, it's the same thing.


re: couples
I guess I'm lucky, too. It hasn't been easy though, and we still disagree sometimes. I think what has made it easier is that we're both 'inner scorecard' people. If DH told me he really wanted something expensive, I would know it was because he really wanted it, not because he thought it would impress people. And if I explained to him what adjustments we'd have to make to afford it, he'd know it was because I'd done the math and I wasn't just taking a frugal stand. Knowing that the other person is honestly working to make both people happy is a big help. For example, DH would like to buy a property with a lot of acreage. Instead of arguing that we don't need that much property, I said that if we bought a property that size, I'd want to make sure it was productive enough to support the additional financial burden it would pose. It's just compromising instead of posturing.

[JohnnyH]

I've never brought anyone into the fold and after much trying pretty much gave up... Separate finances works well, I've had little conflict despite doing it this way for about 8 years of relationships with 3 girls... Both parties probably rolled our eyes at each other quite a bit but no real conflicts.

I think that works fine for dating, but life with a person intent on living paycheck to paycheck is almost like you are too. Unless you want to fully support them. But supporting a person with a talent for saving nothing is a daunting prospect. For one, they are never fully satisfied (implied by zero savings) and secondly, $40k/yr requires $1mill @ 4% SWR.

[henrik]

Suppose we were typical Stepford parents spending money on every enrichment we could find for our kids ... would you still describe us a 'pushing' our lifestyle on them? To my mind, it's the same thing.

Typical is probably the keyword. At a certain age, not being typical (compared to their friends) is a problem for kids. At a certain other age, of course, the problem is the opposite:)

[Ego]

Like Jenny said above: Bottom line, DW and I both know that each of us has our collective best interest at heart. That comes before everything else. It is the key. The synergistic power of two people working in-sync toward the same goal is invaluable. And life is so much more fun than the alternative. The sacrifices are nothing compared to the benefits.

How did we get to that point? First, we both chose wisely. We did not pick someone we could dominate or someone we needed to fix. One key indicator for us was the fact that we both tried to find solutions that allowed us both to "win" in moments where our ideas did not match up perfectly. Not all problems have win/win solutions. Our desire to find mutually beneficial solutions to problems was a good early indication that we had the best interest of the other person and our relationship at heart.

Today we continue to work at it. Before getting married we did the Engagement Encounter with the Catholic Church and a few years ago we went back and did the Marriage Encounter. Both weekends left us with some good tools and forced us to think about those details that are sometimes left unsaid. You may have noticed that I am not particularly religious so you can take my endorsement of those programs as the highest form of praise.

Oh, one other thing... we both know beyond doubt that our relationship is worth more to both of us than any amount of money.

[Retiree]

Jenny : Like henrik says, ‘typical’ is probably the keyword. Actually no matter what you do (for example, bring them up to believe, or not, or as agnostics), children will be sure to find some way to find some major character flaw there. Children can be such beasts, especially when they start “growing up”—I know, I’ve been a child, and a growing-up-child myself! At one level parenting can be such a thankless job! Although of course, at so many other levels, parenting can be the most fulfilling thing there is.

Johnny, I agree. Love is about loving unconditionally, they say : but if you bust your b***** trying to run your month in X amount (enjoying said process, yes, but still), only to see your partner spend twice that amount on some silly and avoidable purchase, well, it can try the best of us.

Good for you both, Ego. Cheers! (Incidentally, re. religion, I’ve seen cases where differences there can be a deal-breaker too. Although I suppose those would be the fringe, the majority won’t care enough one way or the other--about religion I mean.)

[chipmunk]

DW is perhaps the cheapest/most frugal person I've met. I introduced her to the idea of ERE but it really didn't take much convincing. She already had all of the habits, I just showed her that it's possible to save up enough for passive income to cover expenses. (Previously her view of passive income was limited to interest accrued on savings account balances.)

[7Wannabe5]

Retiree said: Sometimes I do worry about the children, though. When they’re older, if they don’t buy in to our way of thinking , they may well resent what might then appear to be big gaps in their lives vis-à-vis their peers. (And children seldom do agree with parents, it seems to me, even with their non-iconoclast, non-weird choices, leave aside extreme lifestyle choices like ERE.) And after all, we've kind of pushed our children into this without really consulting them--they're too young.

Well, one very important consideration is your choice of community in which you raise your children because that will influence the peer pool in which they will find themselves. I didn't have great difficulties in that regard because I raised my kids in academic and rural communities where conspicuous consumption was not the highest value.

Also, kids are individuals with genetic temperaments that will influence what-they-want right from birth. My S25 is an INTJ or other naturally stoic-type who from infancy would not respond to bribes or threats or authority and would throw himself out of the crib on to the hard floor by clinging to the wood with his sticky little toes even though he couldn't even stand up yet. So, if his grandparents gave him $200 for Xmas he would still have $180 by Halloween so he rarely asked me for anything that cost money. My D22 would blow through the same $200 by New Years but she is a naturally easy-to-please-and-desiring-to-please-others type who would happily stay in the crib and sing herself to sleep as a baby so she wasn't whiny or demanding either.

Johnny said: I think that works fine for dating, but life with a person intent on living paycheck to paycheck is almost like you are too. Unless you want to fully support them. But supporting a person with a talent for saving nothing is a daunting prospect. For one, they are never fully satisfied (implied by zero savings) and secondly, $40k/yr requires $1mill @ 4% SWR.

True but not true. The rule-of-thumb that will generally prevent you from finding your life energy (in any form) being sucked into an infinite black hole in relationship to other is to not take responsibility where you don't have or are unwilling to exert authority. Long run it is impossible to avoid having to follow this rule-of-thumb by shopping for compatibility. I think even in these enlightened times men often have more trouble with this than women because there is a level on which men are more compelled to take responsibility for their female partners.

Ego said: First, we both chose wisely. We did not pick someone we could dominate or someone we needed to fix.One key indicator for us was the fact that we both tried to find solutions that allowed us both to "win" in moments where our ideas did not match up perfectly. Not all problems have win/win solutions. Our desire to find mutually beneficial solutions to problems was a good early indication that we had the best interest of the other person and our relationship at heart.

A basic tenet of modern relationship theory is that at the moment you enter into relationship with other you are necessarily equal in power. Therefore, any thought/desire to dominate or fix other you might have is a non-self-aware delusion regarding your own power or perfection.

Agreeing on a method for problem-solving/conflict resolution is critical good practice in relationship but this alone will not prevent problems resulting from growing/changing power structure within relationship over time. Relevant example for this discussion would be that either following ERE is or isn't a good (likely to lead to personal growth/increased power) practice for an individual. Therefore, if one person in a relationship follows this practice and the other person doesn't (all other things being held equal) then that individual will either increase or decrease in power relative to the other person and large discrepancies in power, unfortunate truth, make it very, very difficult for humans to persist in commitment. In fact, I would say that the core definition of commitment to relationship is the ability to persist for at least some time in the face of power discrepancy.

[RootofGood]

I've been fortunate to have my wife on board with ER since the beginning. We both came from pretty humble homes (she immigrated here at age 7, my parents "left the farm" and bootstrapped themselves into college eventually). I can't imagine hitting ER at 33 with the friction of a spendy spouse or someone who wasn't on board with what we consider minor sacrifices.

To touch briefly on the impact of ERE lifestyle on kids, I've done a lot of thinking on that lately (with a 2, 7, and 9 year old at home!).

I pulled together an article at Root of Good to address the various issues often raised about retiring early with kids that some here have hit on:

1. Early retirees are lazy.
2. Kids must see you go to work everyday. That’s what adults do.
3. Kids won’t be good with money if they never see their parents work for money
4. Other kids might think your kids are suffering because you don’t have a job
5. Kids will worry about family money issues
6. Kids will suffer from an entitlement mentality

Full article here: http://rootofgood.com/early-retirement-with-kids/

We don't live an extremely bare bones lifestyle with a budget around $32,000 per year for a family of 5, so the issue of extremely austere living isn't one our kids face.

[Dragline]

Before getting married we did the Engagement Encounter with the Catholic Church and a few years ago we went back and did the Marriage Encounter. Both weekends left us with some good tools and forced us to think about those details that are sometimes left unsaid. You may have noticed that I am not particularly religious so you can take my endorsement of those programs as the highest form of praise.

We got a lot out of that, but what we remember is the leaders had this slogan "Your wedding is a day, your marriage is an eternity". To which we would conclude by jointly mouthing silently "in a spacious grave." And we'd look at each other and smirk or laugh while everyone else was wondering what the hell was so funny. We still often say things, especially to our children, at the same time -- like "Fat, drunken and stupid is no way to go through life, son". After which, one or both usually then says "The Uni-mind Has Spoken!"

Have to say, this is a great thread. I've enjoyed everyone's thoughts.

[jacob]

Another thing to consider is that the normal way of life tends to focus on the past and heavily discount the future whereas ERE is the other way around deemphasizing the present while investing for the future.

After about 5-10 years there's going to be a transition where all the capital effects of ERE really start manifesting themselves. That's when the past future is now the present.

So give it time. If you can get beyond the first few years, you're golden, figuratively and literally.

In our case:

1) We never worried about money or job loss during the great recession.
2) We're about to buy our first house in cash.
3) Both of us can now transition in and out of the job market at will.

I think it was beneficial to the ERE cause that many other [couples] have (unfortunately) served as "bad examples" over the past several years. The immediate difference between ERE and consumerism is saying goodbye to splurging and $3 cups of coffee. The long term differences are much more durable and much more material. It becomes obvious "when the tide goes out".

This extends beyond just the family but also to extended family and friends. We seem much less crazy now than people accused us of five years ago. Previously some were "concerned" about our "suffering and sacrifice". Now they're asking for advice. Of course the cynic in me predicts that this transition is only going to last as fast as the next bubble. But whatever ...

FWIW, our main argument seem to be about clutter and whether any horizontal surface on any piece of furniture can be classified as a storage system (IT CAN'T!!! ;-P ) When we close on the house we're going to buy, we're going to demarcate it room by room in terms of clutter-philosophy. Right now we're in a 1bd/1ba apartment, so we have to reach a compromise on the matter which usually means letting the clutter status oscillate between totally minimalist to stuff-avalanches-off-the-desk.

[RootofGood]

In our case:

1) We never worried about money or job loss during the great recession.
2) We're about to buy our first house in cash.
3) Both of us can now transition in and out of the job market at will.

This.

You craft your own lifestyle together that has near infinite flexibility as to geographic location, work status, and time use.

You never worry about money because you have more than enough. It's quite liberating to not have money worries.

[1taskaday]

As ""Fat, drunken and stupid" sounds like an excellent way to me, to go through life (at this moment),-I think I need a job change...

[Spartan_Warrior]

My GF still isn't all that interested in the whole early retirement aspect, possibly because she's not mathematically inclined and/or because her income is on the low side. I did show her my spreadsheets and I think she has faith that I know what I'm doing. At the least, she doesn't really give me grief about it, and she's naturally about as frugal as I am and pays for her own stuff as well as contributing to household bills, so I don't see it as a major incompatibility. Every once in a while she'll gripe about not eating at enough restaurants or something, but only when I already pissed her off with something else. We get to have way more interesting problems this way, like in-laws and pet affinities.