Women retiring early

[Dream of Freedom]

I'm a man. Forgive me for not having the answers, but I have more questions.

Does a career provide you with more feminine power than controlling a large estate would? Are there healthier ways to express your independence?

Have any married men here early retired after reaching FI, while their wives or husbands continued to work? Did you find yourself assuming roles inside the home, or did you keep all your free time?

Why shouldn't someone do more of the housework if they use the house more?

[chenda]

I can't say gender has ever been an issue I've ever considered in retiring, though I was raised in a society with something close to social parity with men.

If I was born closer to previous generation when women were forcibly retired upon marriage from their highly restricted careers, then I might feel a certain stigma about retiring...maybe.

[lilacorchid]

I am much more into reaching FI then my husband. So I told him we will save for me, and he can work until he dies. In reality though, we have merged our finances (with me at the helm) and it's our money. I wouldn't want to send him off to work every morning knowing that I'm going to putter around doing my projects and he is still forced to work. If he chooses to stay... that's a different story.

While I was off on mat leave, I did most of the housework because I was there and it made sense. I feel that my marriage should be a partnership and we should put in equal time in the work as well as equal time in the fun.

I looked at my mat leave as a trial for FI. For the first five months, I was making my full salary. Then for seven months, I made about 35% or so. And for the last five months, I suppose you could say I "controlled the estate" and had no income. I also never felt more trapped in my life. Even though my husband just hands over his cheque, I still felt like shit. It surprised me... I had always thought about him working and me keeping house and our children and it being okay. But I guess making and having my own money for well over half my life will change a person.

Personally, I don't see power in controlling another's money. I'd rather have my own to control.

And to comment on the OP, I think "having it all" is horseshit. How can anyone spend enough time on their career and family to excel at both and have enough hours in the day to eat and sleep? You either do it all medeocrarly, or pick one and ignore the other. My take on feminism is it's about choice. Some families want a stay at home parent, some want to be dual income. And some want to be FI before they have kids and don't have this conversation.

I work because I like to have my own money, and I need some social time away. When I don't have to work, I expect I will still continue to do useful things, some of which others may find useful and generate income.

Edit to add: I have had people comment that I could "retire" early by becoming a housewife. I don't remember if it was here or MMM's formums. It wouldn't work for me (even before I found out how crappy it felt to have no money coming in) because I would feel like I'm cheating and profiting of another's misfortune.

[jennypenny]

According to my upbringing, it's admirable for a woman to "have it all" - a husband, children, and fabulous career.

Do they have to be at the same time?

We were told that there is nothing wrong with being a housewife, but we might become unsatisfied if we did, all the same.

Even though I see flaws in the above way of thinking, I can't quite swallow the argument against careerism, from the married female perspective. ...

If you like what you do, or dread the idea of staying home, why would you quit? You're not required to quit if you're ERE. It's all about choices.

If you want to leave your career, but are struggling with giving it up, that's different. Are you afraid to give it up because it's your identity? Or do you feel like you're betraying women by giving up on your career? My argument would be not to let other people determine what you do. You have to do what works for you. You don't owe anyone anything.

[jacob]

In terms of other people's expectations of you (how they judge) and your own expectations of yourself, it really depends on which generation you ask. In my generation/society (young Gen X from very progressive Scandinavian country), gender stereotyping, like the haybox, the horse drawn buggy, and the equivalent of writing "he or she", is a thing of the past (think 50+ years ago). We don't think about it and we don't much or any experience with it.

In particular nobody has to prove their gender. Everybody can have what they want if they make the effort to have it. They are also expected to take care of themselves, and they are mainly defined by what they've done and whether they can take care of themselves. Marriage is not seen so much as "the husband providing the money and the housewife taking care of the house" as a mutually beneficial arrangement of two people living together because they prefer that. In my generation, it is normal for the woman to earn more than the man; it is normal to have seperate savings accounts; and it is normal to share all housekeeping responsibilities according to time and interest.

So when I retired, there wasn't really any problems. I had saved enough money to be financially independent, so I deserved to retire. Since I was home much more I naturally did more of the house work. Not because I had to but because I was around to do it. Later when I went back to work and DW went back to school and later a part time job, she naturally did more of the house work for the same reason. We actually split our income regardless of who makes it (to make tax accounting easier). While this has mainly benefitted DW over the years (I estimate I would be about 100k richer if we hadn't split), we have both felt bad about receiving half of the other's money during the times when the one hasn't been working. There is not a general expectation from either of us that the other person must provide a living.

However, I have also received many internet-insults over me retiring that because DW was still working "I'm just a stay at home husband" and that it's immoral for me to retire when my "wife is still working" because my "duty is to provide for my family". These complaints come from another generation.

From that perspective, I think women who retire early are less susceptible to negative judgment simply because the younger generations will recognize that they arrived by their own work and the older generations will simply put them in the box of being a stay at home housewife, which is acceptable to them [the older generation], as opposed to their other box of working wife/stay at home husband which is not acceptable in their world view.

As far as whether having a career is a measure of self-worth. Well, you're asking on an early retirement forum, so most will say no! Whether the rest of the world think it is. Yes, indeed, most people self-define and define others in terms of their career, size of salary, size of house, size of job title, etc. but that's something we all deal with regardless of gender.

[DutchGirl]

If I would stop working, perhaps some people will assume I do that because my partner earns enough money for the both of us. I don't mind if they think that. I don't care much. As long as I know that I'm not being a drag on someone else, that I'm independent and standing on my own two feet, I'm ok. Perhaps people assuming I'm living on my partner's income could help to avoid some discussions on my large money cushion, I don't particularly want to draw attention to it anyway.

I might not stop working, but instead spend some more time on A. volunteer work and B. perhaps some paid work that pays little but seems very valuable to me.

[jennypenny]

In terms of other people's expectations of you (how they judge) and your own expectations of From that perspective, I think women who retire early are less susceptible to negative judgment simply because the younger generations will recognize that they arrived by their own work and the older generations will simply put them in the box of being a stay at home housewife, which is acceptable to them [the older generation], as opposed to their other box of working wife/stay at home husband which is not acceptable in their world view.

I think that's mostly true. You will get some comments from other women about "selling out" for leaving your career. I've been lectured to more than once by older feminists who lament that women today don't appreciate "all they went through" so we had the chance for a career. You might also be treated differently by men and women who see you as intellectually inferior if you no longer hold some kind of title.

[lilacorchid]

In terms of other people's expectations of you (how they judge) and your own expectations of From that perspective, I think women who retire early are less susceptible to negative judgment simply because the younger generations will recognize that they arrived by their own work and the older generations will simply put them in the box of being a stay at home housewife, which is acceptable to them [the older generation], as opposed to their other box of working wife/stay at home husband which is not acceptable in their world view.

I think that's mostly true. You will get some comments from other women about "selling out" for leaving your career. I've been lectured to more than once by older feminists who lament that women today don't appreciate "all they went through" so we had the chance for a career. You might also be treated differently by men and women who see you as intellectually inferior if you no longer hold some kind of title.

Too true. As someone being labelled Gen X or Y depending on what birth years the author of the puff-piece choses to include in their generalizations, I get it from both sides. I'm expected to have a career because it's my duty! I'm expected to stay home to raise children and look after my man because it's my duty! I'm a terrible spouse/mother/employee if I don't!!! Sometimes I get both from the same person.

[JohnnyH]

Is it fair to boil this down to worry about how you are perceived externally and how you define your self worth? ... Maybe it's an INTJ thing, but I really could care less what people think about me. For the same reasons I find gender irrelevant. So much so I'll happily accept the stigmatism of "house husband" someday.

Managing a vast estate would (does?) give me much more satisfaction than my job ever did... I suppose many look down their nose at me and pity me because I live in a small house, own a $2000 car, walk rather than drive, etc... But I really don't care. I suppose I take for granted that anyone with some intelligence could deduce that I am the opposite of a poor, pathetic person (or stupid, lazy, any other trait associated with shirking work for its own sake)... So I'm usually not overly defensive about my choice of path and have [so far] not had any outbursts proclaiming my own wealth and success.

Most people would rather just keep up with the Jones than figure out what they value as an individual.
____
Not to derail, but I think the push for women's careers was deceptively brought on by big business that wanted to double the supply of [cheap] labor... This also increases tax revenue and public schools become more influential on the young.

Jobs are freakin easy... Seriously, running a successful, efficient and somewhat self sufficient household requires multiples more skill and knowledge than my job does.

[George the original one]

> Not to derail, but I think the push for women's careers was deceptively brought on by big
> business that wanted to double the supply of [cheap] labor

THAT one is so potentially inflammatory that it needs a thread of its own!

[jennypenny]

Is it fair to boil this down to worry about how you are perceived externally and how you define your self worth?

Not entirely. Women (still!) have to work harder to prove they are as smart as men. That isn't just about self-worth. It's about missed opportunities. Do you know how hard I have to work to develop relationships with male traders, hedgies, or FA's? Being female costs me money.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/magaz ... d=all&_r=0

It's long, but worth a read. One of the findings is that, all things being equal, both men and women presume men are smarter.

edit: The OP has a fair question. I agree with JohnnyH about just thumbing your nose at everyone and doing what you want, BUT it comes with consequences that you have to be willing to accept.

[JohnnyH]

It's long, but worth a read. One of the findings is that, all things being equal, both men and women presume men are smarter.

edit: The OP has a fair question. I agree with JohnnyH about just thumbing your nose at everyone and doing what you want, BUT it comes with consequences that you have to be willing to accept.

People do tend to presume all manor of stupid things. But I'd rather not spend any of my energy trying to correct them... I guess I'm viewing opportunities as irrelevant because I'll be retired. I suppose if I was hungrier I might care a lot...

But what are some of these consequences you speak of? Do they become less relevant as your FU money increases?

THAT one is so potentially inflammatory that it needs a thread of its own!

Not trying to be offensive... From big business standpoint I see it on par with the military wanting females in combat... I don't think it's because they care about the advancement of women.

[lilacorchid]

It's long, but worth a read. One of the findings is that, all things being equal, both men and women presume men are smarter.

edit: The OP has a fair question. I agree with JohnnyH about just thumbing your nose at everyone and doing what you want, BUT it comes with consequences that you have to be willing to accept.

People do tend to presume all manor of stupid things. But I'd rather not spend any of my energy trying to correct them... I guess I'm viewing opportunities as irrelevant because I'll be retired. I suppose if I was hungrier I might care a lot...

But what are some of these consequences you speak of? Do they become less relevant as your FU money increases?

To the bold: That's exactly why I have written about three posts and deleted them!

My daily life at my old career: My boss telling me I will never be as good as my male coworkers, even though I worked much harder and NEVER consumed porn at work. People at different job sites treating me like dumb tag-a-long instead of the lead hand. Missing out on going on jobs and overtime because I am female. Being made to feel like I was a quota fill instead of being hired for my skills.

The consequences of other people being ignorant or trying to drive me out was me moving on. There were other women I was hired with into different, but sister departments, and they all left too. The kicker: we were all unionized gov't employees. If it was that bad for us, I can't image how it is out in the real world. So yes, I was driven out by bullshit and it cost me lots of money over my career. The other guys who I was hired with are all making about 15K more than me at this point.

On the other hand, you can't buy me. The more FU money I have, the less sexist bullshit I put up with. (And that's why it's a good thing for everyone, not just women, to have a job. It's not to give our children to government institustions or provide cheap labour. It's so when you want to move on, you have the resources to do so.)

[jennypenny]

But what are some of these consequences you speak of? Do they become less relevant as your FU money increases?

They are less relevant if you have enough FU money, but they still come up. One time someone hesitated to lend me his auger. (I know, an auger!) Would he hesitate to lend it to you? We both plan on some form of homesteading. Would a guy be more likely to barter skills with you or me? (an I'll-do-your-plumbing-if-you-fix-my-car kind of thing) That's the kind of stuff I mean.

[lilacorchid]

@jennypenny - I already see that. I've owned my own house for ten years and I enjoy tearing down walls, fixing, and rebuilding. But when the neighbours come knocking for someone to help, they ignore what I have to say because my husband must know better. He would rather play computer games then do rennovations. But I'm disregarded because boobs! We did try to homestead, and I got that too. I'm the extrovert of our introverted pair, and it got tiring to be talked down to all the time.

Oh! And lets not forget when I was trying to buy a new furnace. The company asked me on three seperate occasions if my husband was going to be there. And each time I said no, so they asked if my partner would be there. I had no partner! So I asked if my cat would be good enough. And when they showed up, they asked AGAIN. Seriously. I could go on...

[Dragline]

I think what jenny noted about not needing to do everything at once is important. There can be "chapters" of life that are quite different from one another, yet each satisfying in their own way. What ERE says is that those chapters need not be ordered in the way that others expect or dictated by the chains of debt, but can be of your own choosing with a little planning and discipline.

I just came back from a special award ceremony for my mother-in-law from her alma mater (class of 1963). She won it for having a distinguished career. Yet she really didn't start her career until after staying home and raising six kids most of the way. Then she began teaching and writing books and ended up heading up an ethics department at a university, which she "retired" from a few years ago. She still sits on many legal and medical ethics boards for various things.

My DW stopped working full-time (at a federal law enforcement agency -- DW is "The Man") after we had our third child. But its not like she just went home and put on an apron. She teaches part-time, coaches basketball (boys -- after all, she is "The Man") and does all sorts of things that do not involve homemaking. She may go back to working full-time at some point -- but that again is another chapter. The advantage she has is that she doesn't have to.

So I don't think there's anything wrong with sticking with a career path that you personally enjoy or value, or starting or stopping one at any particular time. It sounds quite healthy to me. People who advise you otherwise really have a limited world-view and haven't considered all the possibilities.

[JohnnyH]

Sounds like a lot of fuel for the "reasons for ERE" thread!

... I've never met a girl (my age/under 30) who fixed houses and cars... And I'd have to admit I would be somewhat surprised... Then I would probably propose.

[jacob]

Maybe add some gender specific objections here:
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/wiki/ ... Objections

[GandK]

I (K) came home at the end of March after 20 years (20 years and 3 days, to be exact!) of full-time work. My husband (G) is still working. However, although we can get by without my paycheck now, we are not yet FI as a family, and the agreement in our case was that I'd take over most of the household responsibilities. Because of this, both G and I have experienced an increase in free time. We have shared the benefits of my coming home.

My biggest challenge WRT this issue has been figuring out how to introduce myself after 20 years of saying "I'm a software developer." I'm not experiencing an identity crisis but I do still find myself fumbling around for a label that will accurately describe how I see myself.

I expect, as Jacob and Jeff alluded, that married men would face more challenges and judgment when retiring early than married women. The cultural expectations that the OP refers to can be helpful to women who get off the hamster wheel. Men have been uniformly supportive of my decision, not deriding, and almost every woman I know has said things to me like "It's so great that you get to do that!" and "I'm jealous, I wish I could spend more time with my kids/husband," and my personal favorite, "If I could go back and do it all over again, I would do what you're doing. Without hesitation, I would do it. The money I earned isn't worth the time that I lost."

[jennypenny]

I was reading an article about Katie Couric's troubled talk show, and came across this blurb. This is exactly the kind of grief non-working women get from some working women.

"She [Couric] has a complete and utter disdain for the audience she needs to appeal to," says one former employee. "In her mind, the Today show was [the model] -- professional women getting ready for work. Anyone home after 9 o'clock are people she has no interest in appealing to."

It might be easier for a woman to stop working. Some people might think she's lucky. But there is definitely a certain amount of irrelevance and invisibility that befalls a professional woman who leaves the workforce.