Immense frustration with SO's attitude toward money

How to pass, fit in, eventually set an example, and ultimately lead the way.
mikenotspam
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Post by mikenotspam »

I can see that this will be a rant. When FI and "retirement" are not readily understood by most of the population, I ask for your indulgence turning here.
My boyfriend and I possess diametrically opposed views of what money is, means, and can allow us to do.
Money is time. Very real, priceless life time that we have to accomplish our goals, develop loving relationships, participate in our community (whatever that means to you). In some variant or another, most of us on this site would agree to that.
He makes 100k, has had a steady job for 8+ years, yet has $2K in the bank, and negative several hundred thousand in an underwater home. He could easily sell it and pay off the underwater part in two years max if he wanted. We could EASILY collectively save $400k in a few years, split a cheap house, rent out a room to keep it financially self-sufficient, or any other number of infinite choices regarding choosing our lives, instead of them choosing us.
He's actually told me that he knows what my goals are, but doesn't "agree with them". My only goal being FI, I'm literally unable to understand what he means. Who could not want to be financially independent? Incidentally, he hates his office job, rendering this even more unprocessable. Attempts at communal goals are talked about, but more or less tossed aside. Part of this is that he ended a relationship with his previous boyfriend, a manipulative, freeloading sort of guy, a year and a half ago, and doesn't seem to trust the idea of joining forces in any way, which is somewhat understandable...temporarily.
I've been exceedingly careful not to proselytize, but now our relationship has easily crossed the year point with no self-realization on his part. We're loafing. When I handed him YMoYL to read, he quickly went to his tablet to check prices of Quicken to track expenses, since he was tired of using Excel. I offered up Google Docs, but that wouldn't do.
While reading this, I know already what you're thinking. This guy is hopeless, what a materialistic loser, etc., etc. The issue is that he's loving, kind, caring, intelligent, extremely funny and fun to be around, very good at the few hobbies he has, and filled with so many other qualities not often found in one person, that I pre-despise the internet conventional wisdom to "just break up with him".
But, again, money is life energy, as they say in YMoYL. In his decision not to open his mind, I feel that literally years are taken away from me.
I could go on, but it's even more tiring consciously thinking about it...
Thanks for the indulgence. Free thoughts and advice accepted. :-)


Jacob1234098
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Post by Jacob1234098 »

I have been dealing with the same sort of situation with my girlfriend for a long time now. It has been a mentally exhausting ride for me. I am a hardcore saver and always have been, saving around 85% of my salary. Keeping at this pace, I am on track to retire very comfortably in 10 years. I'm 26. I hate my current job.
Now I've come to really care about this girl. She makes 30k/year, yet eats out daily and 'must' live in luxury apartments (1k/month). She has 15k in student loans she hasn't touched for 5 years. Initially, I thought I could just 'fix' her, telling her everything she was doing wrong and why what I am doing is right. I would NOT recommend this path. It only creates resentment and puts a huge strain on the relationship. It seems to me that I need to be positive and supportive no matter what decision my partner makes. I can voice concerns but never tell her what to do. I try to show her through my actions and how my choices are having a positive impact in my life. SLOWLY, she seems to be opening up a bit to making some small changes. Just recently, she mentioned getting a studio apartment close to work, saying that she could save a lot of money if she did so. I almost choked I was so happy. But undoubtedly, you will have to compromise as well. That, or break up and find someone more like yourself. That choice has crossed my mind many times as well...sigh.


frugaladventurer
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Post by frugaladventurer »

Hmmm.......
First off - you've been dating a year, right? And although I get the part that you think he's awesome (sounds like he IS) - it seems perhaps a little early in the relationship to be planning an economically entwined future.
So consider the possibility that some of his resistance to the planning and such, may be that he's not quite in the same committed spot yet that you are, as far as the relationship goes?
Also - what do you think it MEANS to him, when you talk about FI? If he dreams of material "success" - fancy cars, houses, clothes - then it may take some work for him to desire FI instead. If he grew up in poverty or is overly concerned about how others see him - he may be poor at deferring gratification. Or perhaps retiring young means being a "failure" to him.
Perhaps you should plan YOUR FI route, without depending on him for half. Can YOU buy a cheap house that you could rent out and pay off, while living with BF (do you live together? If not, don't rush it). Did he actually read YMOYL?
As for his underwater house - depending on what happens to the market in your area, it might be prudent for him to keep it for a while as the market recovers.
You may just need to lead by example for a while. You'll just have to watch for more insights into WHY he is resistant - is it still lack of a "lightbulb" moment, or is it a personality trait that isn't ever going to change?
Find the meaning - that's the key.


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Ego
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Post by Ego »

You are not a materialistic loser at all. To the contrary, you care about him and you recognize the self-imposed slavery to which he is committing himself. If you are like most here it is not about wealth or materialism, it is about freedom.
Can you continue the relationship without allowing yourself to be drawn into slavery as well? Can you sit by and watch him commit self-harm without stepping in to clean up the mess after each bout? Are you willing to be an enabler?
Some people are able to deal with that role. Others thrive on it. They enjoy being the dependable rock, the problem solver, the fixer. They need someone to fix. The two fit nicely.
You are frustrated so I suspect you're questioning whether you're willing to continue down that road without seeing real, measurable change. One of the great things about money is that it is easily measurable. It is also one of the most frustrating things about it.
Good luck!


RealPerson
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Post by RealPerson »

Totally agree with FA. Living to accomplish FI seems normal to you, but BF may just have an entirely different value system. Change may simply not be possible. Best of luck.


secretwealth
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Post by secretwealth »

This has come up a lot on this forum and a lot of advice revolves around communication, but at the end of the day, most divorces revolve around money and different perceptions of the value of money and the importance of saving are often very difficult to reconcile. Sure, he might change, you might change, but at the end of the day you know the viability of this relationship more than any of us.
The fact is, I consider myself pretty lucky that my wife and I see money the same way--I want to spend a bit more than her, but she keeps me on a tight leash. It all works out, but largely because the variation in our spending urges is minimal. If I were really obsessed with sports cars or she were at Jacob's level of frugality--or both--it probably wouldn't work out.


mikeBOS
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Post by mikeBOS »

What about just keeping finances separate? Splitting things here and there where appropriate but for the most part having separate accounts?


dragoncar
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Post by dragoncar »

I don't think conventional Internet wisdom is simply to break up. Instead, most relevant advice is to accept that he will not change. Consider if you can see a future together where his relationship with money stays the same. Is it a deal breaker, or can you split finances in a way that is acceptable? Are you in a hurry to commit for life or can you give him time to grow?


DutchGirl
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Post by DutchGirl »

If he can pay off the remaining debt after selling the underwater home in two years, he can also keep the house and become not-underwater in the same two years.
I feel that somehow he hasn't grasped the concept of financial independence. Or maybe he does have other values in life, and wants other things from it than you do, including some things that one buys with money. Maybe he looks at not-working as being lazy, or being a leech (no matter that you're FI); and he doesn't want that for himself. Maybe he has plans for a career, where his current job is a drudge but necessary to go somewhere (maybe also he is not going anywhere with his career and still needs to accept that, like a friend I have who was once promising and is now sitting in a medium level job, somehow not good enough to climb further).
So... Talk? But more in an exploring way. What are (both of) your outlooks on life, the future etc. what are your future plans when you reach FI?
PS I would also try to reach FI on my own. Make your strategy, not counting on his money. Perhaps by the time you've been FI for a while, he sees the light. :-)


m741
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Post by m741 »

I think you should sit down with him and ask him why he doesn't agree with your goals. As you say, they seem reasonable enough to you, so perhaps you haven't expressed them in a way which is intelligible to him. Before you have this conversation, think of the hobbies he has and things he enjoys, and use these as an illustration of the power of being FI. I suspect he misunderstands being FI (see the numerous 'meaning of retirement' posts on ERE and MMM blogs).
Either way, I think the most important thing is not to post your frustrations on the internet, but to talk to him in person and explain why you're frustrated, and why being FI is important to you.
If he still can't understand that, and as you say, it's your ONLY goal, I have to say that doesn't seem very promising. He should be supportive of you. The flip side is that you should seek to understand why he doesn't want to have stable finances. Maybe he's done a poor job expressing himself.


pooablo
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Post by pooablo »

I can see where are you coming from.
I have asked myself from time to time how important it would be for my future boyfriend/husband to share the same financial values as me. I think I would rather be single then be in a relationship with different financial values. This probably has to do with the fact that I have seen my father waste a lot of his hard earned dollars on two failed marriages.
Ultimately, like the other forum members have said, you will need to figure out if this difference will be a deal breaker or not for you.
No need to fret too much though. I think deep down inside you will eventually know what the right course of action is. :)


Chad
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Post by Chad »

This type of question, as mentioned by others, seems to appear often. Too be honest, I don't think it is solvable after a year in a relationship. You aren't a little apart you are literally decades apart when you consider when you want to retire. You can make every effort to correct this, and maybe you should considering how much you care for him. But, in all honesty, I don't think talking will do any good, as it seems like you have already talked a fair amount. Not every relationship is savable, nor should it be.
I'm not saying I know I'm right, just suggesting that hard choices are more common than we would like. A good person is not necessarily a frugal person. They are not one and the same.
Good luck, and hopefully, I'm wrong.


mikenotspam
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Post by mikenotspam »

Thank you, all, I've thoroughly read and considered your thoughts. This is the most incredible quality of the ERE forums, where discourse is at a high level and there is respect to boot.
Frugaladventurer, et al., in particular reminding me that a year is not really long, I appreciate it. On one hand I want to make sure that if I'm spending so much time in a relationship, that it's striving toward something, and not just going through the motions of staying together. On the other, it is quite early. Patience is especially needed here.
We have talked a decent amount already about FI-related things (just typically without conclusion), and in an effort to be sure we don't ONLY talk about "the future", I need to continue to lead by example, and not by words.
Thanks again, for both your thoughts, and the indulgence of a late night rant :-)


FarmOne
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Post by FarmOne »

We went to a farmer's seminar in Spokane a couple of years ago and the guest speaker was a professor from the University of VA. He gave relationship advice so simple it was profound: "check their credit score".
This brought laughter from the group, but my wife and I talked about it afterwards. We have both been previously married and divorced. In both of our cases, had we given serious consideration to our ex's credit scores we could both have avoided huge mistakes. (Our exes are still in financial - and personal turmoil.)
Of course, having not lived and experienced that suffering maybe we both wouldn't be as happy as we are today?...


Christopherjart
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Post by Christopherjart »

"The issue is that he's loving, kind, caring, intelligent, extremely funny and fun to be around, very good at the few hobbies he has, and filled with so many other qualities not often found in one person"
I'd say you're very lucky to have found someone like that and to keep your bank accounts separate. :-)


BeyondtheWrap
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Post by BeyondtheWrap »

Not everyone wants to retire early. That doesn't make them a bad person.


Seneca
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Post by Seneca »

I'd recommend keeping accounts separate, but that is not going to solve any problems other than keeping him from spending your money.
It depends on the relationship you want with your spouse and your personalities.
For us, your situation would not work. But I have a friend in his 50's whose wife got FI in her late 40's and she bought a farm with her freedom. He is planning to work at a job for life and works nearby. She is happy traveling without him, and he is happy to let her. They keep everything separate. There are occasionally problems around this arrangement and the wealth asymmetry but they are making it work.
Certainly if FI for you is vagabonding, the relationship is going to have to end.
Our relationship would not survive that. So for each other's happiness and sanity, our plan either has to be combined, or we'd have had to quit the relationship.


JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

I've never had a relationship with anyone even remotely similar to me financially... It's never been a problem, running completely separate finances; no stress, no arguments.
HOWEVER, after a few years and you've saved decades of expenses and all they've managed is to add another 5 years of debt payments -it starts to feel like this person is a hindrance, liability even, to the life you want.
No to mention the lost opportunity of having someone fully on-board with financial independence, ie: a partner. With two equal partners you could probably reach FI in about 35% of the time required for an individual to reach FI... This is HUGE.
It's in a lot of our natures to "fix" and "make work" and "solve" but I have never brought any SO over to the FI fold, despite tremendous effort.

I probably would have been better off using that energy finding someone who was already compatible rather than repeatedly beating my head against a wall trying to help them not make poor financial decisions.
I have a feeling every one of them would have looked at my ER with a mixture of fear and revulsion. Their families probably would convince them to divorce "the lazy bum" and take half of my pre-existing fortune. ;\
At 0/4 I think I'm done attempting to change non-ERE friendly partners.


anomie
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Post by anomie »

I've been married for 17 years, and in that time, we have grown closer together in terms of financial perspective. But we were never extremely far apart. We both started at a grad school type standard of living -- used second hand furniture, that type of thing. I moved more extreme, but she was always tolerant.
I can't imagine our relationship working if we had begun at far, distant separate points in terms of material existence. ( I would have used that as the final straw in our more difficult moments..)
best of luck...


jacob
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Post by jacob »

What JohnnyH said ...
I've experienced all of these issues to various degrees. DW has generally been willing to go along with my [less] crazy plans, but I've also held back somewhat compared to an even more extreme approach (for instance, we had a car until last year). I've felt the opportunity cost both in terms of "we could be a lot further ahead if I'd married an ERE person" to the not being able to experience the freedom together once I reached it and DW was far behind. Not being on the same page resulted in flack from the internets and certain family members that we were not, uh, "patriotic" because we weren't consuming our entire paycheck.
It took me/her 7 years of living together to finally "get it".
(Acutally our main battle front is more on the clutter/minimalism dimension that FI. It would be nice if there were never any arguments, but I think maybe that's too unrealistic(?). In that case differing on minor details is probably a good outcome.)
However, as mentioned above, it also depends on what YOUR life goals are. If you're a non-traveling homebody, then it'll be fine if your partner is out working all day. If you want to travel, preferably together, the FI disparity will drive you crazy. If you're both fine with you traveling alone, say, it'll work.
I guess it's like the "children-issue". Many people are fine with having children and then outsourcing, rarely seeing their kids, and having other people raise them being related in name and ultimate responsibility only. Many relationships can be that way too. The question is ... do you want to live together or is it sufficient to simply live in the same place?
In our case, the "ends" are quite similar. It's just the methods (ERE vs paycheck consumerism) that have differed. If the ends had been different I don't think it would have worked out.
In general ERE represents such an immense paradigm shift that people won't be brought around didactically. There's really no telling what "key" will unlock the enlightenment. I think many who get on board ERE fast already felt that way in the first place and just needed someone to give them the words or put their thoughts into a framework. I don't think the ERE blog/book actually convinces anyone if they previously held an opposing or radically different position. Value-systems are generally not arrived at rationally.


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