Do you have kids or plan to ?

[Canadian Dream]

@aptruncata,
"it's an over simplified statement that does not account for current standards of public educations available and child care costs"
I understand what you are getting at, but at the same time both education and child care do involve a lot of choice. You can choose to move to a location that has a better school system and cheaper child care and still pay reasonable housing costs if you wanted to. Some areas are just more child friendly than others. By the way, I'm totally not defending school boards here...I'm a trustee on mine so I know more than most the issues.
I would also challenage the assumption that both parents have to work. I know several families that if they did the math would be shocked to realize how little their spouse is 'earning' on an after tax basis. I've worked it out for my wife and her daycare business is equal to about a $30K/year job. After all if you have ERE expenses you likely don't 'need' both incomes in all cases.
My three cents *grin*
Tim

[altoid]

For all the folks above with kids, do you carry health insurance for the kids? How to budget for this after reaching ERE when employer sponsored plan is no longer there?

[aptruncata]

@Canadian
"You can choose to move to a location that has a better school system and cheaper child care and still pay reasonable housing costs if you wanted to."
Hmmmm things must be a whole lot different on your side of the border. I'm a banker living near downtown los angeles and i have yet to meet one person that knows such a place you're talking about. (better school system + cheaper childcare + resonable housing all of which have to come with a decent job market) I'm not talking about relocating to Arkansas from CA for cheaper childcare and that wouldn't be so ERE either especially when i only have 10 years to go on mortgage and debt free (other than mortgage).
The tax deduction is not even considered an "deduction" here in the states compared to what it really costs. It would be like purchasing a 747 for free peanuts.

[KisKis]

@altoid
I do plan on carrying family insurance. Right now I have 100% employer coverage for the family, but I do have the additional cost worked into my ERE plans. It is very difficult to estimate the cost of future health insurance. For now, I have worked in an extra $24k into predicted annual expenditures in retirement for health insurance and as a general (and, hopefully, generous) cushion for any other line item underestimations. I will have a much better idea of what actual health insurance for the family will cost a few years before retirement when I can get quotes.
@aptruncata
The whole lower COLA/lower pay vs. higher COLA/higher pay is a frequent topic, and adding kids to the equation doesn't change the baseline debate much. You could probably sell your LA suburbs house and buy a bigger house in cash and still have money left over in Arkansas, seriously. However, obviously that is a decision easier said than made since you have other aspects of your life that you are probably attached to and revolve around your current location. It's a topic that I sometimes play the "what if" game with myself, except from the opposite spectrum (live in a LCOLA - Gulf Coast - and have received job offers for 3x what I am making now in east and west coast cities, but the family would be miserable, so I keep telling myself that the additional costs and lower air quality would nullify any anticipated financial gains).

[RealPerson]

We have 2 adopted kids. They are teenagers now. Looking back, I think we just wanted to have kids because "people just have kids". We did not really think about them taking care of us in our old age. You never know if they are even interested. Raising 2 kids has definitively been a real challenge, with very gratifying moments interspersed.
I have found raising kids very expensive. The largest expense is the opportunity cost. You cannot really have 2 career professionals and raise 2 kids at the same time. The other expenses are constant checks for sports stuff, activities, etc. It is amazing how that adds up. Since keeping track of my expenses, "kids" is the largest expense category. You could save on the kids expenses, but not without really curtailing some of the opportunities they can develop for themselves. College, which is coming up soon, is not nearly as expensive as we thought. There are several really good deals around, where a college degree does not require any student loans. After reading some of the posts here, I guess we have to wonder if college is even necessary.
In the end, it is really cool to have the chance to be so involved with the lives of 2 young people. One thing that would sort of depress if we would not have had any kids, is the end of our legacy once we are no longer living. Part of you lives on in your kids!

[Dragline]

@ altoid -- re health insurance, we do a high deductible plan with an HSA. You get to put much more in an HSA if you have kids.

[before45]

I don't have kids and don't plan on having them. (I'm a woman in my early 40s.) I've thought about this a lot. I am very concerned about over-population and global warming, so I think that people (especially first-world people) should only have children if they really want them (and then, only 2, but that's just my opinion; I'm not ready to go China on this).
When I think about having children myself, I realize that to be brutally honest, the scenarios that attract me are totally idealized: sure it sounds nice to have great healthy kids that I'll like as well as love and will have a good relationship with and will be self-supporting and care for me in my old age. But when I thought about all the people I know who don't really like their kids (if only because they don't have much in common), or their kids don't like them, or their kids are still living off them as adults, or their kids are disabled, or their kids have died before them, or their kids live far away and hardly ever visit, etc., etc. . . . I realized that I would be deeply unhappy in those scenarios, and that I didn't think I should have kids unless I felt confident that I would love them and be happy with my decision no matter what. And I don't feel confident at all about that. I'm just not that good a person.
Also, I know a lot of older people, and when they are in need some are cared for by children, some by spouses, some by friends, some by church members, some by institutions. I think our society will be changing a lot in the future to reflect that kids often can't be the answer to the problems of old age. One thing I do know is that if you want kids primarily to have them around and helpful in your old age you better have a back-up plan just like people without kids.
I just want to express my gratitude for those who want kids and are willing to do the work to raise them, because I do want humanity to continue! And I do feel that those of us without kids should be contributing to their education and health, etc., for that reason. And because today's kids determine the world I'll be living in in the future.

[grendel]

my partner and I have 1 young child and would welcome other(s) should we be fortunate enough to receive more. Our daughter brings immeasurable joy that I cannot express. Maybe I should also add that we are not currently on a path to financial independence. Although I would like to be, it is not my primary concern. I have the upmost respect for everyone's choices regarding having kids; we are grateful for the opportunity to be present in our daughter's life.

[Marius]

I'm the proud father of a nine year old vasectomy.
Raising kids is a lot of work and I don't like work, which is why I'm here. Also, I like silence, a lot.

[VanishingPoint]

I have 2 daughters ages 8 and 6. A truly magical time when they are old enough to be able to really relate to and not yet old enough to be anything but innocent. I see bits of myself in both of them. One is very headstrong and the other is timid of the unknown.

Wouldn't change a thing if I had the choice to do it all over. Financial burden be damned.

[WorkingWageWealth]

Er...no. But the decision isn't (wasn't financial). I just don't think you "should" have children unless you want them. Currently, I don't want them.

[altoid]

Here is how I look at kids: They are like a very expensive car in a way that, most people will like it once you try it. But people don't crave for it before they have a taste in it. Maybe car is a bad example.... The point is, child free people might just not have enough experience in kids, and also this explains why parents don't stop at having only one kid?

I also would like to defend China on this subject: China has a one child policy! So China is really helping this planet by reducing its future population. It is ironic that people on one hand will criticize China's one child policy as human right invasion, and on the other hand, never hesitate to point fingers at China when we talk about population.

Last: Not having kids is a harder decision, than to have them. After all, to eat and to reproduce is two basic instinct for any living creatures.

[workathome]

One child, and it would a blessing to have more.

[JohnnyH]

I'm a little depressed by the all the no kids in here... This is exactly the group that would produce some great people, IMO.

Thinking about this a lot recently, kind of got the ultimatum from current GF... I'm worried her genes aren't good enough for my kids (no one in her family is exceptionally smart, athletic, healthy, tall). OTOH, I love her and find her incredibly sexy. Smart kids (inherent most from Mom according to articles[?]) or good sex for me?... lol, please let her never read that!

The planning I want to put into having kids is intimidating and likely not feasible on the current time frame... I'm going to be such a diet tyrant when she's pregnant. I hope all that Mozart on the fetus talk is nonsense because it seems a really stupid thing to do.

Kids are a huge sacrifice when you're young, I'm still coming to terms with the possibility I will never do anything I saw myself doing when I was young (expat, hiking continental divide, learning several languages, be a playboy in Brazil... retire )

OTOH, I look at the lives of people of traditional retirement age and think retirees with adult children have much fuller, more interesting lives... IMO many of the 50+ year olds I see without children lead rather depressing and empty lives in comparison.

[workathome]

It's amazing how depending on your level of intelligence, responsibility, and awareness, having kids can seem incredibly complex and a difficult decision, or require literally no thought beyond a basic instinctive sex drive. All the forum members lean very heavily towards the first case, to the point of undoing the potential for procreation through intelligent decision making. I wonder how that factors into evolutionary theory? Is being too smart, or smart the wrong (right?) way detrimental to long-term genetic preservation?

Unfortunately, I think it makes a good case for "Idiocracy" being highly predictive, not a comedic warning.

[altoid]

@JohnnyH, I also had a lot of thoughts on this subject recently. My friends are popping kids out left and right, and almost everyone in my real life suggested to have them, otherwise I will regret later in life. I guess kids just add another dimension in life, to have another human being deeply connected with you. And my biggest fear is loneliness, physical and psychological. My mom had once told me , after my dad passed away, she would have nothing to live for if not for my brother and me. She is from a big family with six siblings.

So that aspect does scare me, and make me wonder if all the hard work now will eventually become worthwhile.

[workathome]

My personal inclination was towards delaying children, but at this point I think it is the most important think I've done. This isn't a logical conclusion so much as an emotional joy I feel daily. Life feels more meaningful as well.

[jacob]

@JohnnyH, I also had a lot of thoughts on this subject recently. My friends are popping kids out left and right, and almost everyone in my real life suggested to have them, otherwise I will regret later in life.

Isn't it better to not have children and regret not having them, than to have children and regret having them?

[altoid]

@Jacob, yes, I would say it is better not have children and regret not having them, than the opposite. However, statistically speaking, the probability of each happening is different, right ? How many parents regret of having kids? I personally have not met any, not sure they are all happy as they claimed, or they are just convincing themselves they are, on this irreversible decision?

[jacob]

@altoid -

Well, statistically speaking ... parents tend to be more depressed than non-parents
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/news ... ss-parents
and childcare/parenting seems to rank right above the evening commute in terms of happiness impact http://www.scribd.com/doc/7095097/Kahne ... counts-AER (see table 2). Here's the bottom (worst) of the table for quick reference

... housework, childcare, evening commute, work, morning commute.

And here's a more realistic take on it
http://ideas.time.com/2013/08/01/do-chi ... or-misery/
Namely, that it depends more on individuals than statistics ... on the specific child and on the specific parent.

Edit: Also see this http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/
So individuals might get lucky.