Nothing has the power to ruin a good ERE dream like a divorce.
Fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. That statistic has been tossed around for years without much thought given to the underlying data. Many have leapt to the incorrect conclusion that any single marriage has a 1 in 2 chance of ending in divorce.
There is some interesting new evidence showing that all marriages are not created equal. A study of 1200 highly educated women (mostly Harvard grads) found that only 6% were divorced. The vast majority reported that they were extremely happy in their marriage.
The author of the study is just now beginning to delve into the reasons for this anomaly. The ERE community has a unique perspective and I'd like to hear what others here think might be the cause.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... l-marriage
Conventional Wisdom on Divorce
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
good post
i think education = more money and money problems can leed to divorce.
i guess people who also have the foresight and fortitude to see through a college education probably also have the foresight to think past the expected 'romantic' years and visualise the tough years that require luck, committment and empathy.
So yes the finding make sense to me...
Aussie
(3 degrees - none in spelling - 11 years married)
i think education = more money and money problems can leed to divorce.
i guess people who also have the foresight and fortitude to see through a college education probably also have the foresight to think past the expected 'romantic' years and visualise the tough years that require luck, committment and empathy.
So yes the finding make sense to me...
Aussie
(3 degrees - none in spelling - 11 years married)
I would also guess "maturity" and maybe also more resources (for example money and intelligence/knowledge about the world) to solve problems (whether they are financial problems or other problems).
I'm not sure, but maybe among those highly-educated women are also women who choose not to marry because they find themselves not to be marriage-material (or their current partner) and they have the liberty to choose another option. (And yes, the paper says 1200 women, but only 600 of them were married, so I might be right?).
Also, a "final" score of 50% divorce and a "running" score of 6% divorce could come together sometime. On average, these women were only married for 4.3 years! I don't think most divorces happen before that, do you?
Finally: I want to get a degree at Harvard, to get that 50% shot of an extremely happy marriage. I live together, but I must say that for example when I'm ill I only feel mildly extremely happy. How about you? (In other words: I think the ladies are upgrading their feelings to give socially acceptable / jealousy provoking answers).
I'm not sure, but maybe among those highly-educated women are also women who choose not to marry because they find themselves not to be marriage-material (or their current partner) and they have the liberty to choose another option. (And yes, the paper says 1200 women, but only 600 of them were married, so I might be right?).
Also, a "final" score of 50% divorce and a "running" score of 6% divorce could come together sometime. On average, these women were only married for 4.3 years! I don't think most divorces happen before that, do you?
Finally: I want to get a degree at Harvard, to get that 50% shot of an extremely happy marriage. I live together, but I must say that for example when I'm ill I only feel mildly extremely happy. How about you? (In other words: I think the ladies are upgrading their feelings to give socially acceptable / jealousy provoking answers).
-
George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
Half of all marriages end in divorce (as a group). For individuals, you undoubtedly know people have had several divorces... that skews the odds towards less than 50-50 chance of divorce.
My sister has been married and divorced twice. A coworker has been widowed twice and divorced twice. As a result of those two people, that means 4 more couples never reached divorce! (not sure what the statistics on widowhood are...)
So if I check my high school friends that I've stayed in touch with, only one had a divorce out of 20 friends that I've known for the past 35 years.
My sister has been married and divorced twice. A coworker has been widowed twice and divorced twice. As a result of those two people, that means 4 more couples never reached divorce! (not sure what the statistics on widowhood are...)
So if I check my high school friends that I've stayed in touch with, only one had a divorce out of 20 friends that I've known for the past 35 years.
Advice for having a good marriage from "30 Lessons for Living: Tried and True Advice from the Wisest Americans":
1. Marry someone a lot like you, with the same core values. And forget changing someone after marriage.
2. Friendship is as important as romantic love. Marry someone for whom you feel a deep friendship as well as love.
3. Don't keep score. You can't get out exactly what you put in. The key is having both partners trying to put more in than they are getting out.
4. Talk to each other. Long-term married partners talk to each other about the things that count.
5. Don't just commit to the partner -- commit to the marriage itself.
Most marriages that fail will fail on one or more of the foregoing.
There is also a chapter from "The Millionaire Mind" that discusses that a good choice of mate is a key part of financial stability and success.
I agree with Jacob that getting married too early is usually a mistake and can lead to problems, although there are still many exceptions to that general rule. But most people don't "figure out who they are" until at least their late 20s if not later. And if you are not sure who you are, adding another person in the mix who may be similarly not-fully-formed usually doesn't help.
Finally, some of this is generational. Baby Boomers have high divorce rates and the biggest "growing" group of singles is in that age bracket. Younger people are more wary of marriage in the first place.
1. Marry someone a lot like you, with the same core values. And forget changing someone after marriage.
2. Friendship is as important as romantic love. Marry someone for whom you feel a deep friendship as well as love.
3. Don't keep score. You can't get out exactly what you put in. The key is having both partners trying to put more in than they are getting out.
4. Talk to each other. Long-term married partners talk to each other about the things that count.
5. Don't just commit to the partner -- commit to the marriage itself.
Most marriages that fail will fail on one or more of the foregoing.
There is also a chapter from "The Millionaire Mind" that discusses that a good choice of mate is a key part of financial stability and success.
I agree with Jacob that getting married too early is usually a mistake and can lead to problems, although there are still many exceptions to that general rule. But most people don't "figure out who they are" until at least their late 20s if not later. And if you are not sure who you are, adding another person in the mix who may be similarly not-fully-formed usually doesn't help.
Finally, some of this is generational. Baby Boomers have high divorce rates and the biggest "growing" group of singles is in that age bracket. Younger people are more wary of marriage in the first place.
@DutchGirl: I agree with you. The 4.3 years average is the thing that sticks out the most for me. 4.3 years are mostly still in honeymoon period. The number would look totally different when they stretch the duration to over 10 or 20 years. More importantly, durability doesn't always equal quality in marriage. I know some people who stay married but separated because they don't want to split the asset. Again, being dependent to your spouse or doing it for the sake of children are not uncommon reasons for people to stay married despite being unhappy.
@George the original one: twice widowed AND twice divorced?? what are the chances for that to happen to anyone?
@George the original one: twice widowed AND twice divorced?? what are the chances for that to happen to anyone?
A new study finds that one-third of divorce filings mention Facebook as a contributing factor in the breakup:
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/facebook-cau ... 23-11.html
As to those well-educated happily married folks, I know a fair number, and @DutchGirl pegged it:
"In other words: I think the ladies are upgrading their feelings to give socially acceptable / jealousy provoking answers."
Educated people know how to keep up appearances, and know very well how to dissemble with some Nosy Parker with a survey
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/facebook-cau ... 23-11.html
As to those well-educated happily married folks, I know a fair number, and @DutchGirl pegged it:
"In other words: I think the ladies are upgrading their feelings to give socially acceptable / jealousy provoking answers."
Educated people know how to keep up appearances, and know very well how to dissemble with some Nosy Parker with a survey
timely subject.
the other day i had coffee with an entrepreneur who built up a very profitable business and large assets, only to lose a lot and have to start over again (they're talented and driven, so i'm confident they'll bounce back).
a woman i know had her assets taken out from under in a divorce. all of them. the dude was sneaky, must have had lawyer friends.
i say all this because i can't stress enough how important it is to choose your spouse and choose well. you're a team, a partnership and must commit to each other well past the honeymoon phase. divorce is too financially devastating to mess around with, and when kids are thrown into the mix it's even worse.
the other day i had coffee with an entrepreneur who built up a very profitable business and large assets, only to lose a lot and have to start over again (they're talented and driven, so i'm confident they'll bounce back).
a woman i know had her assets taken out from under in a divorce. all of them. the dude was sneaky, must have had lawyer friends.
i say all this because i can't stress enough how important it is to choose your spouse and choose well. you're a team, a partnership and must commit to each other well past the honeymoon phase. divorce is too financially devastating to mess around with, and when kids are thrown into the mix it's even worse.
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
@palmera
the other option is to never put too much weight on financial and meterialistic things so if divorce does happen you are relatively immune anyway. I know if my wife left me I would not be too fussed if she took half of everything. She actually needs money more than me.
no one can be 100 pct sure about life long partners and it seems to me the added pressure of predicting financial meltdown should a divirce occur could be counter productive.
The main reason you should pick your partner carefully should be the most obvious...am i in love?
the other option is to never put too much weight on financial and meterialistic things so if divorce does happen you are relatively immune anyway. I know if my wife left me I would not be too fussed if she took half of everything. She actually needs money more than me.
no one can be 100 pct sure about life long partners and it seems to me the added pressure of predicting financial meltdown should a divirce occur could be counter productive.
The main reason you should pick your partner carefully should be the most obvious...am i in love?
I kind of agree with aussierogue on that. Worrying about what could happen financially if you and your spouse divorce is largely counter-productive to a good marriage. It's like putting the thought out there that divorce is a possibility. So the idea of splitting is there, even if it's only a fear. And if you have that sort of fear you can actually create what you fea - so one has to be careful about what they put attention on.
Aussie is also right in that no one can be 100 percent sure - not just about spouses but about anything in life.
Making your priority something besides financial security is going to help in lots of things, including personal relationships and personal happiness.
One further comment - a college degree does *not* in any way mean greater intelligence!
Aussie is also right in that no one can be 100 percent sure - not just about spouses but about anything in life.
Making your priority something besides financial security is going to help in lots of things, including personal relationships and personal happiness.
One further comment - a college degree does *not* in any way mean greater intelligence!
being "In love" is necessary in the firs 10 years, but really, the foundation is "commitment."
it's not "worrying about what could happen financially" it's preparing and protecting yourself (and your spouse if they do and will always have low to no income) in case of divorce.
also, introduce children into the mix and it's a whole 'bother ballgame.
it's not "worrying about what could happen financially" it's preparing and protecting yourself (and your spouse if they do and will always have low to no income) in case of divorce.
also, introduce children into the mix and it's a whole 'bother ballgame.
-
jennypenny
- Posts: 6858
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
I agree that the best thing you can do is choose wisely and make sure you know yourself first. Some people are mature and committed and some aren't no matter what their age. I'm surprised everyone thinks age is such an issue.
If you come to the marriage with substantial assets and want a prenup, fine. If you decide to keep finances separate because you have different spending habits, fine. But once you're married, you can't be thinking about divorce even as a remote possibility. If you never put it on the table then you'll only think about how to work things out, not whether it's worth working them out.
(This reminds me of the other thread about purchases. Someone brought up that the best thing to do was never consider the purchase. I think the same thought pattern applies here.)
If you come to the marriage with substantial assets and want a prenup, fine. If you decide to keep finances separate because you have different spending habits, fine. But once you're married, you can't be thinking about divorce even as a remote possibility. If you never put it on the table then you'll only think about how to work things out, not whether it's worth working them out.
(This reminds me of the other thread about purchases. Someone brought up that the best thing to do was never consider the purchase. I think the same thought pattern applies here.)
-
aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
My thoughts on the blog post... uhhh "study"...
So the source of the 50% divorce rate is the Dr. Phil show? Well, if it was said on that show then it must be true, accurate, current, and derived from an unassailable study representing a true cross section of the population with a sufficiently large number of couples followed from marriage to death. So, does anyone know where the 50% thing comes from anyway?
I mean real data here, so one could actually compare this population of 600 highly educated women, avg marriage length 4.3 years, to the data set and see how far we're off track at 6%.
Higher levels of education tend to positively correlate with essentially better everything in terms of SES, so why would divorce rate be different?
So the source of the 50% divorce rate is the Dr. Phil show? Well, if it was said on that show then it must be true, accurate, current, and derived from an unassailable study representing a true cross section of the population with a sufficiently large number of couples followed from marriage to death. So, does anyone know where the 50% thing comes from anyway?
I mean real data here, so one could actually compare this population of 600 highly educated women, avg marriage length 4.3 years, to the data set and see how far we're off track at 6%.
Higher levels of education tend to positively correlate with essentially better everything in terms of SES, so why would divorce rate be different?
-
jennypenny
- Posts: 6858
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-coun ... melessness
That article bothered me. The issue isn't really divorce. The issue is poor financial planning. Sure, it happens. So do medical problems, natural disasters, family crises, etc. I feel badly for people in those situations who do what they can and can't work things out. Unfortunately, for every one of those people there are thousands like this woman who can't work things out because they feel entitled and blame the external event. (if I read the article correctly they weren't even legally married and she still relied on him for financial support--that's not unlucky, that's too lazy to see to your own welfare)
I do feel badly for this woman. I just think being featured as a divorce/poor/homeless victim in a newspaper article is just reinforcing her viewpoint and not really helping her to move on with her life.
Divorce is devasting. Divorce can lead to financial ruin. I think for some however, their financial habits keep them one bad event away from ruin, and divorce just ends up being the event.
[Damn, I'm being judgemental again. Maybe I should have posted this on that thread.]
That article bothered me. The issue isn't really divorce. The issue is poor financial planning. Sure, it happens. So do medical problems, natural disasters, family crises, etc. I feel badly for people in those situations who do what they can and can't work things out. Unfortunately, for every one of those people there are thousands like this woman who can't work things out because they feel entitled and blame the external event. (if I read the article correctly they weren't even legally married and she still relied on him for financial support--that's not unlucky, that's too lazy to see to your own welfare)
I do feel badly for this woman. I just think being featured as a divorce/poor/homeless victim in a newspaper article is just reinforcing her viewpoint and not really helping her to move on with her life.
Divorce is devasting. Divorce can lead to financial ruin. I think for some however, their financial habits keep them one bad event away from ruin, and divorce just ends up being the event.
[Damn, I'm being judgemental again. Maybe I should have posted this on that thread.]