Wow. This thread has really touched a cord for me too!
My mother, who lives in Hong Kong with my grandmother, expects me to support her. The problem with my mother is that she has been coddled by her mother and my father for all her life. She doesn't know how to take care of herself. I am not sure if I will support her financially.
However, if I do decide to, I would go with an annuity route. By buying her an annuity, she won't be able to spend the lump sum and will be guaranteed a monthly income for the rest of her life. If she ends up not using the monthly stipend wisely, I won't feel guilty because I will have fulfilled my duty.
@dragoncar I am with you on the public pension concept. I think some people need to be forced to save for their own good.
I feel like giving money to a spendthrift is like giving a heroin addict heroin.
dealing with relatives with money problems
@TravelingTrader...
DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT IN GERMANY BY LAW CHILDREN CAN BE MADE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEBTS OF A PARENT???????
That is SO UNFAIR!!!
Talk about the Socialist rewrite of "The Little Red Hen"...its a wonder anyone in Germany would want to work and get ahead.
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It does shed some light on the German hatred (rightly so IMO) of Bailing Out Greece.
DO YOU MEAN TO SAY THAT IN GERMANY BY LAW CHILDREN CAN BE MADE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEBTS OF A PARENT???????
That is SO UNFAIR!!!
Talk about the Socialist rewrite of "The Little Red Hen"...its a wonder anyone in Germany would want to work and get ahead.
-------
It does shed some light on the German hatred (rightly so IMO) of Bailing Out Greece.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6858
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
I used to buy into the idea that kids should support their parents when they were old. And I still do in some ways. But I don't agree with the emotional blackmail of "I sacrificed to raise you and now you owe me" argument. I don't feel that way at all about my own kids. I'll just be glad if they can support themselves when they are grown.
Parenting is not a financial transaction. You shouldn't spend everything you have on your kids, and then expect to use them as an ATM later in life. I think many people spend too much on everything from Mozart baby classes to college tuition and rationalize it as a sacrifice for their kids. If you do that, it follows that many parents would then feel entitled to some form of payback from their kids later on.
Parenting is not a financial transaction. You shouldn't spend everything you have on your kids, and then expect to use them as an ATM later in life. I think many people spend too much on everything from Mozart baby classes to college tuition and rationalize it as a sacrifice for their kids. If you do that, it follows that many parents would then feel entitled to some form of payback from their kids later on.
@mo
Just remember on the loans the IRS limits the amount you can deduct yearly and you have to carryover the excess losses....it could take decades to write off any potential losses.
@pooablo
I would not go the annuity route...not the traditional one anyway.
Once the recipient of the annuity income stream dies all the money in the annuity goes to the company that issued the annuity.
I would go with a Trust so that upon your mothers eventual demise the assets of the trust revert to you....not the insurance company.
Just remember on the loans the IRS limits the amount you can deduct yearly and you have to carryover the excess losses....it could take decades to write off any potential losses.
@pooablo
I would not go the annuity route...not the traditional one anyway.
Once the recipient of the annuity income stream dies all the money in the annuity goes to the company that issued the annuity.
I would go with a Trust so that upon your mothers eventual demise the assets of the trust revert to you....not the insurance company.
I'd say the first person to talk to is your wife. If you guys are on the same page about finances I imagine she's as aware of how his behavior might come back to haunt you all. Next bit is strategies. It sounds like there are some things (like your kids college funds) that you should be able to agree are 100% off limits.
I like the idea of looking into an in-law apartment or other set-up with your living situation, this is something we've actually been discussing as an eventual possibility (and if we never need it, we can rent it out). I'm assuming you are in the US and your FIL will therefore be eligible to draw on Social Security, so if he has his housing taken care of for free the SS should be providing him with enough $$ to meet needs. This would also give your wife the peace of mind that might allow her to be more firm in saying "no" to any requests for money: she'll know refusing is not going to wind up with her dad dying homeless under a bridge.
I like the idea of looking into an in-law apartment or other set-up with your living situation, this is something we've actually been discussing as an eventual possibility (and if we never need it, we can rent it out). I'm assuming you are in the US and your FIL will therefore be eligible to draw on Social Security, so if he has his housing taken care of for free the SS should be providing him with enough $$ to meet needs. This would also give your wife the peace of mind that might allow her to be more firm in saying "no" to any requests for money: she'll know refusing is not going to wind up with her dad dying homeless under a bridge.
Ugh, I just paid $300 to get my aunties electric turned back on.
I have a small cabin (8x12) near mine that I've let many a down and out friend stay in. Mostly they don't enjoy my lifestyle and move on after a couple months. But I'm a ninja with the public assistance, so my costs are usually minimal - a plane ticket to get them out of a bad situation and that's it.
I have a small cabin (8x12) near mine that I've let many a down and out friend stay in. Mostly they don't enjoy my lifestyle and move on after a couple months. But I'm a ninja with the public assistance, so my costs are usually minimal - a plane ticket to get them out of a bad situation and that's it.
I havent had experience with this type of thing. It is definitely one of the threads that I don't find myself with a good opinion on. I believe my immediate family are all in fairly good positions now, but of course things could change..
I'll share one experience that this thread reminded me of:
When I was in college, my Dad helped me some with expenses. My tuition and school expenses (pretty low - in-state at a mid-west University) were paid with my student loans and scholarships. My Dad would give me money every once in a while to help with food, gas, rent, that kind of thing. I nearly always had a job and worked quite a lot. The money from Dad helped me live comfortable. I don't recall how much he gave me. I wish I had kept track now. Probably something like $10k.
Anyways, when I graduated from college, I had a job lined up. Shortly after I graduated, and before I started at the new job, Dad gave me a check for a thousand or so. I guess it was either a graduation gift, or just some money to help furnish my apartment or something (I didn't have furniture other than a bed and a dresser), When he gave it to me, he said it was the last money he expected to ever give me.
Maybe its a cheesy example, but having my Dad say that was very nice. I think it helped me to feel independent. Kind of a formal point of becoming an adult - now I was no longer going to be supported financially by anyone else.
I wouldn't have expected or asked for any more money from him - I didn't expect to get that last bit at all, but still it was nice that he said that. I have no idea whether he told me that meaning only the money thing or whether he said it to mean the "now you're a man" thing..
What I mean here is that for a certain type of people, being told that you aren't going to get any more help from others can actually be motivating and empowering. When you're being supported by others - especially as a full gown adult - you're a slave to those people. When you know that has ended or won't happen any more, you can fell a bit more free. I'd guess the bad part is that most of the people who get themselves into financial messes due to poor decisions are not the kind of people motivated by this kind of thing.
I'll share one experience that this thread reminded me of:
When I was in college, my Dad helped me some with expenses. My tuition and school expenses (pretty low - in-state at a mid-west University) were paid with my student loans and scholarships. My Dad would give me money every once in a while to help with food, gas, rent, that kind of thing. I nearly always had a job and worked quite a lot. The money from Dad helped me live comfortable. I don't recall how much he gave me. I wish I had kept track now. Probably something like $10k.
Anyways, when I graduated from college, I had a job lined up. Shortly after I graduated, and before I started at the new job, Dad gave me a check for a thousand or so. I guess it was either a graduation gift, or just some money to help furnish my apartment or something (I didn't have furniture other than a bed and a dresser), When he gave it to me, he said it was the last money he expected to ever give me.
Maybe its a cheesy example, but having my Dad say that was very nice. I think it helped me to feel independent. Kind of a formal point of becoming an adult - now I was no longer going to be supported financially by anyone else.
I wouldn't have expected or asked for any more money from him - I didn't expect to get that last bit at all, but still it was nice that he said that. I have no idea whether he told me that meaning only the money thing or whether he said it to mean the "now you're a man" thing..
What I mean here is that for a certain type of people, being told that you aren't going to get any more help from others can actually be motivating and empowering. When you're being supported by others - especially as a full gown adult - you're a slave to those people. When you know that has ended or won't happen any more, you can fell a bit more free. I'd guess the bad part is that most of the people who get themselves into financial messes due to poor decisions are not the kind of people motivated by this kind of thing.
@LiquidSapphire/@bigato Yeah, my patience was/is really being tried. The light at the end of this tunnel is that with this house being in my name as well, it could turn into a nest egg/retirement for me down the line. Of course, this depends on a lot of factors, but I'm trying my hardest to set things up that way.
I just found out that my mother and one of her siblings haven't spoken in two years for reasons similar to my situation.
I never made the connection between drinking and these family problems until now. Hm. Thanks, ERE Forum for the free therapy
I just found out that my mother and one of her siblings haven't spoken in two years for reasons similar to my situation.
I never made the connection between drinking and these family problems until now. Hm. Thanks, ERE Forum for the free therapy
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander." So if I had to support someone else, I'd offer them room and board at the ERE level. They'd have a room, a bunk, and all-you-can-eat access to the household rice, beans, Internet, and bicycle pool. If that's not good enough they'd have to figure the rest out themselves.
If someone from my nuclear family were homeless and starving, I'd feel obligated to help them out. But I'd be very uncomfortable subsidizing a lifestyle that's more lavish than my own. I think directly providing true necessities would be a reasonable compromise. While there would be some added costs (mostly the incremental cost of a larger residence), there'd be limits on them, so you could still achieve FI.
If someone from my nuclear family were homeless and starving, I'd feel obligated to help them out. But I'd be very uncomfortable subsidizing a lifestyle that's more lavish than my own. I think directly providing true necessities would be a reasonable compromise. While there would be some added costs (mostly the incremental cost of a larger residence), there'd be limits on them, so you could still achieve FI.
Well, I just got the call from my folks to "assist" with a financial makeover of sorts (this call 2 days after I paid off my last debt--no more debt for me! w00t!). Their "emergency fund" has been 2 credit cards and a signature loan--$45K in unsecured debt (have to double check the signature loan for sure) and $290K in two mortgages (each approx $145K each).
Here's my approach for their situation (YMMV):
1.) Through their respective banking institutions, set up all their checking accounts with online access and online bill pay (assuming said institutions do not charge for these services).
2.) Unsecured debt will be setup in a debt snowball, highest interest first. One card they'll have paid off in the next 60 days, that payment rolls into the next card, so on and so forth.
3.) They need to shutdown utilities in house one (old house) and move into the house 2 (new house). This "transition" has been happening for almost 2 years. Shutting off utilities puts $500 back in their pocket, 3/4 of which will be applied to utilities @ 2nd house and free up $125/month to put into the debt snowball.
4.) They need to get out from under the old house. *Need some input from ya'll on best way to do this.*
4a.) Issues w/ old house: finish one bathroom, 3-5 roof leaks in various places, some gutter/soffit issues, tear down some peeling wall paper, etc. For the most part, cosmetic/minor repairs. These issues will need to be addressed before selling and/or renting.
4b.) Selling. Market is soft and they won't get what they want for it. Sell for less than owed just to get out from under the mortgage?
4c.) Renting. They could get $1000/month to rent the old house out, offset 80% of their note (yes, local market would bear this, could push for full note amount or a little more than note amount).
4d.) Any other suggestions on getting out from under the old house/making money off old house?
5.) They're smokers. $240/month. I told them quitting was the quickest way to put $240/month in their pocket or debt snowball right now--that's just the cash perspective. Threw the health argument at 'em too. Smokes are their stress release and they don't have suitable replacements yet.
6.) Pack Rat/Horder. To put it mildly, there are enough household items to outfit 3-4 complete households (w/o furniture). THIS IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION. Yes, they have been slowly downsizing. $800 in donated clothing alone. Very slowly, glacial pace...
7.) New house has some mold cleanup to be done before they can move in full time (basement leaked).
What I foresee is me having to "jump in" to accelerate the pace and keep things moving along else they end up more underwater than they already are. Jump in via mold clean up, moving stuff from old house to new house and rearranging stuff at new house. Then I'll need to follow up w/ them to make sure they're staying on task.
Any suggestions for lighting a fire under their arses to keep them steadily moving in the right direction would also be appreciated. Folks are fast approaching 70; I understand they're not as spry as they once were (some days I don't understand this so well).
My siblings and I will probably get them 4 new tires for xmas for one of their vehicles to keep them going in the vehicle department--biking/walking to current employer is not viable. Still working on them to broaden their horizons in this regard.
Another option I was thinking of to get them from old house to new house is call in some favors I'm owed from friends and do a furious weekend move and/or mold clean up or both.
Here's my approach for their situation (YMMV):
1.) Through their respective banking institutions, set up all their checking accounts with online access and online bill pay (assuming said institutions do not charge for these services).
2.) Unsecured debt will be setup in a debt snowball, highest interest first. One card they'll have paid off in the next 60 days, that payment rolls into the next card, so on and so forth.
3.) They need to shutdown utilities in house one (old house) and move into the house 2 (new house). This "transition" has been happening for almost 2 years. Shutting off utilities puts $500 back in their pocket, 3/4 of which will be applied to utilities @ 2nd house and free up $125/month to put into the debt snowball.
4.) They need to get out from under the old house. *Need some input from ya'll on best way to do this.*
4a.) Issues w/ old house: finish one bathroom, 3-5 roof leaks in various places, some gutter/soffit issues, tear down some peeling wall paper, etc. For the most part, cosmetic/minor repairs. These issues will need to be addressed before selling and/or renting.
4b.) Selling. Market is soft and they won't get what they want for it. Sell for less than owed just to get out from under the mortgage?
4c.) Renting. They could get $1000/month to rent the old house out, offset 80% of their note (yes, local market would bear this, could push for full note amount or a little more than note amount).
4d.) Any other suggestions on getting out from under the old house/making money off old house?
5.) They're smokers. $240/month. I told them quitting was the quickest way to put $240/month in their pocket or debt snowball right now--that's just the cash perspective. Threw the health argument at 'em too. Smokes are their stress release and they don't have suitable replacements yet.
6.) Pack Rat/Horder. To put it mildly, there are enough household items to outfit 3-4 complete households (w/o furniture). THIS IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION. Yes, they have been slowly downsizing. $800 in donated clothing alone. Very slowly, glacial pace...
7.) New house has some mold cleanup to be done before they can move in full time (basement leaked).
What I foresee is me having to "jump in" to accelerate the pace and keep things moving along else they end up more underwater than they already are. Jump in via mold clean up, moving stuff from old house to new house and rearranging stuff at new house. Then I'll need to follow up w/ them to make sure they're staying on task.
Any suggestions for lighting a fire under their arses to keep them steadily moving in the right direction would also be appreciated. Folks are fast approaching 70; I understand they're not as spry as they once were (some days I don't understand this so well).
My siblings and I will probably get them 4 new tires for xmas for one of their vehicles to keep them going in the vehicle department--biking/walking to current employer is not viable. Still working on them to broaden their horizons in this regard.
Another option I was thinking of to get them from old house to new house is call in some favors I'm owed from friends and do a furious weekend move and/or mold clean up or both.
@Arrrgh...
4d) Other suggestions regarding the house:
Allow house 1 to go into foreclosure. Your parents will have bad credit, possibly for the best. Before doing this it would be best to make sure that the bank won't be able to seize other assets in order to cover the foreclosure loss. The bank eats the loss. Your parents have bad credit, one home, and better cash flow. If you'd actually consider this, you should also consider things like bankruptcy and having them default on the signature loan.
Alternatively, you could buy one of the houses from your parents for the amount owed on the mortgage ($145k). If you have good credit, can rent it for $1k/mo, and have the desire, it would seem you could make some money here (not much though), or at least stop the bleeding and break even. You could split it with sibling(s) if needed. This allows them to retain their credit, improve cash flow, reduce debt, etc...
The smoking thing is an annoyance, but more than likely this is the hardest problem for you to influence. They're already at the point where they will neglect much more important needs (tires) in order to continue smoking.
If you're really going to be heavily involved, try to gain control of their spending source. Have their paychecks, SS checks etc, deposited into an account you control. Pay their bills for them. Dispense spending money weekly in the form of cash or debit card. Issue them statements or review the accounts so they understand that it's working and you're not stealing their money. They don't have to agree to it, but you don't have to help them. Helping someone without boundaries often results in enabling.
4d) Other suggestions regarding the house:
Allow house 1 to go into foreclosure. Your parents will have bad credit, possibly for the best. Before doing this it would be best to make sure that the bank won't be able to seize other assets in order to cover the foreclosure loss. The bank eats the loss. Your parents have bad credit, one home, and better cash flow. If you'd actually consider this, you should also consider things like bankruptcy and having them default on the signature loan.
Alternatively, you could buy one of the houses from your parents for the amount owed on the mortgage ($145k). If you have good credit, can rent it for $1k/mo, and have the desire, it would seem you could make some money here (not much though), or at least stop the bleeding and break even. You could split it with sibling(s) if needed. This allows them to retain their credit, improve cash flow, reduce debt, etc...
The smoking thing is an annoyance, but more than likely this is the hardest problem for you to influence. They're already at the point where they will neglect much more important needs (tires) in order to continue smoking.
If you're really going to be heavily involved, try to gain control of their spending source. Have their paychecks, SS checks etc, deposited into an account you control. Pay their bills for them. Dispense spending money weekly in the form of cash or debit card. Issue them statements or review the accounts so they understand that it's working and you're not stealing their money. They don't have to agree to it, but you don't have to help them. Helping someone without boundaries often results in enabling.
4) "Jewish Lightning" on first house???
(OK! not PC...Stereotypes have some basis in fact though)
Renting one of the houses will also give you a very heavy Depreciation Deduction on their Tax Return at their marginal income tax rate for the first few years....may even negate taxes for the first year or two with a massive refund of what has been paid in from their jobs...and its based on what they have invested/paid (???) for the house not what its actually worth.
When the house is eventually sold the Depreciation is recouped but at Capital Gains Rates...if their is a loss on the house recouping, and thus tax owed, may be nill.
Smoking...Near 70?...Sigh...at that age the damage is done healthwise...while you can't stand to see the money (literally) go up in smoke no real sense in trying to make them quit...maybe they'd turn to alcohol...smokers of drunks??? which would you rather live with?
(OK! not PC...Stereotypes have some basis in fact though)
Renting one of the houses will also give you a very heavy Depreciation Deduction on their Tax Return at their marginal income tax rate for the first few years....may even negate taxes for the first year or two with a massive refund of what has been paid in from their jobs...and its based on what they have invested/paid (???) for the house not what its actually worth.
When the house is eventually sold the Depreciation is recouped but at Capital Gains Rates...if their is a loss on the house recouping, and thus tax owed, may be nill.
Smoking...Near 70?...Sigh...at that age the damage is done healthwise...while you can't stand to see the money (literally) go up in smoke no real sense in trying to make them quit...maybe they'd turn to alcohol...smokers of drunks??? which would you rather live with?
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LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
Seconding on the "don't focus on the smoking sentiment". Sure, mention it now and again, but the willpower and drive to quit an addiction like that is internal, not external. They have to decide they want it. At age 70 that is unlikely.
Also many times, a person will not quit addiction, instead it gets replaced with something else. Stories abound on the internet of people quitting smoking, only to turn to drinking, gambling, eating. My own mother quit smoking to appease her new significant other, and gained 100 lbs within a year, and she also upped her drinking to nightly 1L of wine. Probably would have been better off just keepin' on smoking.
Also many times, a person will not quit addiction, instead it gets replaced with something else. Stories abound on the internet of people quitting smoking, only to turn to drinking, gambling, eating. My own mother quit smoking to appease her new significant other, and gained 100 lbs within a year, and she also upped her drinking to nightly 1L of wine. Probably would have been better off just keepin' on smoking.
kicking this string back up again... so I may rant (sorry)
So I am visiting my mom, talked to her about expenses. She only has $30K so left for living expenses. And she said she expects to use them all up within a year.
The good news is:
- I have already made her transfer money to me last year as "emergency medical expense". This is under the context that, well, if she is in a medical emergency it is unlikely she has the energy to access those funds. So better give them to me now. Well, at least between the CDN medical system, forced savings I am holding for her, plus me and my sis' help if really needed she will be taken care of in emergency situations
So I am visiting my mom, talked to her about expenses. She only has $30K so left for living expenses. And she said she expects to use them all up within a year.
The good news is:
- I have already made her transfer money to me last year as "emergency medical expense". This is under the context that, well, if she is in a medical emergency it is unlikely she has the energy to access those funds. So better give them to me now. Well, at least between the CDN medical system, forced savings I am holding for her, plus me and my sis' help if really needed she will be taken care of in emergency situations
kicking this string back up again... so I may rant (sorry)
So I am visiting my mom, talked to her about expenses. She only has $30K so left for living expenses. And she said she expects to use them all up within a year.
The good news is:
- I have already made her transfer money to me last year as "emergency medical expense". This is under the context that, well, if she is in a medical emergency it is unlikely she has the energy to access those funds. So better give them to me now. Well, at least between the CDN medical system, forced savings I am holding for her, plus me and my sis' help if really needed she will be taken care of in emergency situations
So I am visiting my mom, talked to her about expenses. She only has $30K so left for living expenses. And she said she expects to use them all up within a year.
The good news is:
- I have already made her transfer money to me last year as "emergency medical expense". This is under the context that, well, if she is in a medical emergency it is unlikely she has the energy to access those funds. So better give them to me now. Well, at least between the CDN medical system, forced savings I am holding for her, plus me and my sis' help if really needed she will be taken care of in emergency situations
kicking this string back up again... so I may rant (sorry)
So I am visiting my mom, and we talked about expenses. She only has $30K so left for living expenses. And she said she expects to use them all up within a year.
The good news is:
- I have already made her transfer money to me last year as "emergency medical expense". This is under the context that, well, if she is in a medical emergency it is unlikely she has the energy to access those funds. So better give them to me now. Well, at least between the CDN medical system, forced savings I am holding for her, plus me and my sis' help if really needed she will be taken care of in emergency situations
(more to come, gotta leave now)
So I am visiting my mom, and we talked about expenses. She only has $30K so left for living expenses. And she said she expects to use them all up within a year.
The good news is:
- I have already made her transfer money to me last year as "emergency medical expense". This is under the context that, well, if she is in a medical emergency it is unlikely she has the energy to access those funds. So better give them to me now. Well, at least between the CDN medical system, forced savings I am holding for her, plus me and my sis' help if really needed she will be taken care of in emergency situations
(more to come, gotta leave now)
hey bluepearl, some questions:
does your mom work? is there anyway for her to work?
where does she life? Canada?
I ask because as of now, it looks like the year long countdown until you start supporting your mother 100% is ON.
I came across this blog that really helped me deal with the financially helping family thing: http://agaishanlife.blogspot.com/
We seem to have lots in common with her!
does your mom work? is there anyway for her to work?
where does she life? Canada?
I ask because as of now, it looks like the year long countdown until you start supporting your mother 100% is ON.
I came across this blog that really helped me deal with the financially helping family thing: http://agaishanlife.blogspot.com/
We seem to have lots in common with her!
Hey @palmera, yeah, thanks I saw the blog recommendation a few days ago from your site actually and have been pursuing her blogposts.
Continuing from my rant above… gals and guys, I am not even thinking about early retirement right now b/c I simply can’t afford it. Do give me some advice on how a normal, prudent saver should handle this.
My mom’s was earning the USD equivalent of (I am guessing) $30-40K per year (not a lot of money, but it was also 15 years ago so probably a much meaningful amount) before she retired. She is the type of person though who would spend $98-99 if she earns $100. And now I realize even if she stops earning she still spends $97 and brags that she’s saving that one or two dollars! And since her last job she has always lived on proceeds from the sale of her houses (she has won the real estate lotteries twice in her lifetime). She is now 64 so very unlikely for her to work now. She now lives in the greater vancouver area.
She wasn’t able to come to Canada except that I sponsored her. I was in University, and Dad paid for my tuition and living expenses. Dad had nothing to do with her then, so I worked 32-40 hours per week, mostly midnight and weekend shifts for a bank while in school so I can get employment income under my name, in order to sponsor mom to Canada. (I understand what revanche was living through to some extent). This was also the reason I was able to get a condo right out of school with her, b/c I was earning practically full time salary but didn’t need it to cover tuition. We got a condo on Toronto’s king west village and this was her second real estate lottery winnings.
It was really tough once she gets here b/c we argued a lot about expenses and that she thinks that I’m way too cheap, and just like dad! It was a relief to us both that she sold her house and then could use the money for a while. The plan was always to downsize (and move across the country from Toronto to Vancouver – by that time sis and I were both working on the west coast of US), get her own house again, and have at least some of her expenses covered by the house money, and us girls would cover some.
I would admit that I completely ignore her spending habits in the last few years. Technically it was her money, and when I nagged about reducing spending while still searching her new place the response was always “well, guess what, I am spending my own money, it’s none of your business” And I really can’t say much…
Except, when she is spending her own money and I am not keeping a tight watch over it, the house money disappeared.
When I realized it was sort of too late. So last summer I committed all of my non-retirement savings (this included a loan from my 401K, plus a draw down from my own home equity, other than my now reduced retirement funds I have nothing to show for 10 years of work!), pooled it together with whatever is left of her house money, and we are getting her a condo here in BC.
I think I mentioned it earlier. We can pay the condo in full, but I want to have some money on the side and not have everything tied up in her house, plus I think if I get a mortgage she will nag me less to give her additional spending money.
What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me. As in she seems to think that sis and I started Google or Apple, or have full-fledged toy factories in China… I.e. she thinks we can afford it all and more, and we are just way too cheap to provide for her… Providing for parents is part of the Asian family expectations, and I wouldn’t to really mind giving her a reasonable amount of spending money. I am perfectly fine providing her with basic living expenses along with my sister. Now the definition isn’t a ERE definition. So I am thinking she can still have her basic cable service, a cellphone, the occasional dining out or haircut. I am already shouldering all the housing related expenses (I am thinking I will take over real estate taxes and condo fees, don’t want to trust her with handling these expenses when my name is on the mortgage). All I am asking is that she keeps the rest of her spending reasonable so she is leaving us some breathing room. While she keeps on complaining that food is more expensive in Canada than in US blah blah blah (this I agree), when you delved into the spending records you will notice that she eats lunch outside every day and it costs $11 per meal, 20 or so entries per month for lunches! Hi! How about making some of the food yourself? When you are basically sitting at home all day? I am fine if you occasionally eat out with neighbors as part of the socializing but eating out every day by yourself??? And do you notice that you are drawing down your house principal with these lunches? I am perfectly fine if you have $1M retirement funds and withdrawing $30k per year and spend it on whatever. *fuming* Just can’t believe she is this irresponsible!
OK, if you look at my dining/ spending records I will admit that I have also suffered from lifestyle inflation over the years, (but I have saved over 40% of my lifetime earnings still, ahem). I have told others to be “the change you and I want to see”. So, I have migrated from dining out constantly and spending money freely to almost zero dining out (my recent dining out are all treats with her). I even invited her to stay with me for a week, so she can see how I am able to make all my meals myself and be an example etc etc.
Yet she wouldn’t bulge. She thinks she has to have these expenses. When pressed she also laughed it off saying that she doctored her expense records (padded her expenses, so she can have some secret money…) I am really not sure which is more upsetting to me. To have $11 lunches daily, or to lie, even just to herself, when it’s her own house money she is frittering away.
There is also a slight possibility she used the $ elsewhere other than all the junks she purchased. But where? Gambling? Keeping a hottie on the side? (I don’t think she’s wasting $ on drinking, though…:P
Basically she lost all my trust. She lost my trust 10 years ago (over something I don’t really want to air out here), and I really don’t want to trust her again, but I can’t abandon her when she needs basic living expenses covered. I just don’t want to cover for all the frivolous expenses and I don’t want to fight and argue every time.
So, to summarize:
-she has her basic emergency medical needs covered (her own money, but I am holding it now so it’s safe!)
-she has her housing expense covered (a mixture of her and my money)
-she doesn’t have living expense covered beyond next year. It’s ok for me and my sister (also frugal, a super good saver) to help. But we both think mom is extremely wasteful, and we don’t want to fund wasteful expenses, when we are better money managers and we also want to think about our own retirement, our own houses, our own lives…
Tips? Ideas? Thanks a ton for reading through this super long rant!
Continuing from my rant above… gals and guys, I am not even thinking about early retirement right now b/c I simply can’t afford it. Do give me some advice on how a normal, prudent saver should handle this.
My mom’s was earning the USD equivalent of (I am guessing) $30-40K per year (not a lot of money, but it was also 15 years ago so probably a much meaningful amount) before she retired. She is the type of person though who would spend $98-99 if she earns $100. And now I realize even if she stops earning she still spends $97 and brags that she’s saving that one or two dollars! And since her last job she has always lived on proceeds from the sale of her houses (she has won the real estate lotteries twice in her lifetime). She is now 64 so very unlikely for her to work now. She now lives in the greater vancouver area.
She wasn’t able to come to Canada except that I sponsored her. I was in University, and Dad paid for my tuition and living expenses. Dad had nothing to do with her then, so I worked 32-40 hours per week, mostly midnight and weekend shifts for a bank while in school so I can get employment income under my name, in order to sponsor mom to Canada. (I understand what revanche was living through to some extent). This was also the reason I was able to get a condo right out of school with her, b/c I was earning practically full time salary but didn’t need it to cover tuition. We got a condo on Toronto’s king west village and this was her second real estate lottery winnings.
It was really tough once she gets here b/c we argued a lot about expenses and that she thinks that I’m way too cheap, and just like dad! It was a relief to us both that she sold her house and then could use the money for a while. The plan was always to downsize (and move across the country from Toronto to Vancouver – by that time sis and I were both working on the west coast of US), get her own house again, and have at least some of her expenses covered by the house money, and us girls would cover some.
I would admit that I completely ignore her spending habits in the last few years. Technically it was her money, and when I nagged about reducing spending while still searching her new place the response was always “well, guess what, I am spending my own money, it’s none of your business” And I really can’t say much…
Except, when she is spending her own money and I am not keeping a tight watch over it, the house money disappeared.
When I realized it was sort of too late. So last summer I committed all of my non-retirement savings (this included a loan from my 401K, plus a draw down from my own home equity, other than my now reduced retirement funds I have nothing to show for 10 years of work!), pooled it together with whatever is left of her house money, and we are getting her a condo here in BC.
I think I mentioned it earlier. We can pay the condo in full, but I want to have some money on the side and not have everything tied up in her house, plus I think if I get a mortgage she will nag me less to give her additional spending money.
What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me. As in she seems to think that sis and I started Google or Apple, or have full-fledged toy factories in China… I.e. she thinks we can afford it all and more, and we are just way too cheap to provide for her… Providing for parents is part of the Asian family expectations, and I wouldn’t to really mind giving her a reasonable amount of spending money. I am perfectly fine providing her with basic living expenses along with my sister. Now the definition isn’t a ERE definition. So I am thinking she can still have her basic cable service, a cellphone, the occasional dining out or haircut. I am already shouldering all the housing related expenses (I am thinking I will take over real estate taxes and condo fees, don’t want to trust her with handling these expenses when my name is on the mortgage). All I am asking is that she keeps the rest of her spending reasonable so she is leaving us some breathing room. While she keeps on complaining that food is more expensive in Canada than in US blah blah blah (this I agree), when you delved into the spending records you will notice that she eats lunch outside every day and it costs $11 per meal, 20 or so entries per month for lunches! Hi! How about making some of the food yourself? When you are basically sitting at home all day? I am fine if you occasionally eat out with neighbors as part of the socializing but eating out every day by yourself??? And do you notice that you are drawing down your house principal with these lunches? I am perfectly fine if you have $1M retirement funds and withdrawing $30k per year and spend it on whatever. *fuming* Just can’t believe she is this irresponsible!
OK, if you look at my dining/ spending records I will admit that I have also suffered from lifestyle inflation over the years, (but I have saved over 40% of my lifetime earnings still, ahem). I have told others to be “the change you and I want to see”. So, I have migrated from dining out constantly and spending money freely to almost zero dining out (my recent dining out are all treats with her). I even invited her to stay with me for a week, so she can see how I am able to make all my meals myself and be an example etc etc.
Yet she wouldn’t bulge. She thinks she has to have these expenses. When pressed she also laughed it off saying that she doctored her expense records (padded her expenses, so she can have some secret money…) I am really not sure which is more upsetting to me. To have $11 lunches daily, or to lie, even just to herself, when it’s her own house money she is frittering away.
There is also a slight possibility she used the $ elsewhere other than all the junks she purchased. But where? Gambling? Keeping a hottie on the side? (I don’t think she’s wasting $ on drinking, though…:P
Basically she lost all my trust. She lost my trust 10 years ago (over something I don’t really want to air out here), and I really don’t want to trust her again, but I can’t abandon her when she needs basic living expenses covered. I just don’t want to cover for all the frivolous expenses and I don’t want to fight and argue every time.
So, to summarize:
-she has her basic emergency medical needs covered (her own money, but I am holding it now so it’s safe!)
-she has her housing expense covered (a mixture of her and my money)
-she doesn’t have living expense covered beyond next year. It’s ok for me and my sister (also frugal, a super good saver) to help. But we both think mom is extremely wasteful, and we don’t want to fund wasteful expenses, when we are better money managers and we also want to think about our own retirement, our own houses, our own lives…
Tips? Ideas? Thanks a ton for reading through this super long rant!
-
LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
Yikes bluepearl. What a mess. Not much advice to give here except that it is critical that you really think about what you think your duties are, and discuss them with sister, and discuss what you will and will not support, what you will and will not give, and what lines will not be crossed. Set your boundaries now. It sounds like this is the type of person who takes a mile when you give an inch, so you'll likely have to be very clear and firm on where the support stops, and make sure it stops there. I understand that you want Mom to be comfortable, but is it really realistic that she not work at all? Perhaps she could do some kind of office work, receptionist, transcription, stay at home customer service (Uhaul does this) for 10 hours a week or something, make her put some skin on the line, so when you tell her no to some nice-but-not-essential expense, she has the possibility to earn the income herself. Just some ideas. Good luck, I hope you find a solution you are comfortable with but also you can afford.
hey bluepearl, wowie. I'm going to read your post a couple more times throughout the day and respond properly tonight (Toronto time!). But for now, I will say this:
"What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me."
Yes, yes, yes. For my entire teens, my mom talked about how should couldn't wait until I left for university (I got straight As, stayed out of trouble, but would disappear all weekend long). Then, as soon as I graduated and got a full-time job, she set about demanding money from me to pay her back for the times she helped me out with school (a few hundred dollars here and there) and also hung over my head the fact that she was a single mother and endured such hardship to raise me, etc, etc.
It's only in the past year that I realized how much I've been manipulated. The woman makes fairly good money, so I don't understand why she couldn't dig herself out of whatever hole she was in (partially due to health/personal/family reasons). I guess because her children are grown/independent (although my younger sibling lived with her, contributing absolutely NOTHING to the household, until I moved in this September and kicked him out), she used her new found freedom to do all the things she's always wanted to do, including several trips to the States and the Caribbean, as well as ski trips to Vermont and Quebec. She also refuses to downgrade her highend, foreign car.
Even up until recently, she asked me for $50 to contribute to a sick relative's expenses back in the old country. I politely declined, as this cousin has never worked a day in her life, instead relying on cash gifts from our large network of relatives overseas in Western countries. I may sound heartless, but I just can't encourage parasitic behaviour in my family. My mother got so pissed, even though that very month, I had already given her $2500 towards some renovations on the house.
Yeah, I come from a culture where children and the "rich" relatives overseas are expected to pick up the slack for parents and relatives back home, even if some of these relatives have never worked, gone to school or attempted to improve their living situation.
Anyhow, that's my personal rant. In my next post I'll articulate what options I see you having. I'm so irritated for you!
xo
palmera
"What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me."
Yes, yes, yes. For my entire teens, my mom talked about how should couldn't wait until I left for university (I got straight As, stayed out of trouble, but would disappear all weekend long). Then, as soon as I graduated and got a full-time job, she set about demanding money from me to pay her back for the times she helped me out with school (a few hundred dollars here and there) and also hung over my head the fact that she was a single mother and endured such hardship to raise me, etc, etc.
It's only in the past year that I realized how much I've been manipulated. The woman makes fairly good money, so I don't understand why she couldn't dig herself out of whatever hole she was in (partially due to health/personal/family reasons). I guess because her children are grown/independent (although my younger sibling lived with her, contributing absolutely NOTHING to the household, until I moved in this September and kicked him out), she used her new found freedom to do all the things she's always wanted to do, including several trips to the States and the Caribbean, as well as ski trips to Vermont and Quebec. She also refuses to downgrade her highend, foreign car.
Even up until recently, she asked me for $50 to contribute to a sick relative's expenses back in the old country. I politely declined, as this cousin has never worked a day in her life, instead relying on cash gifts from our large network of relatives overseas in Western countries. I may sound heartless, but I just can't encourage parasitic behaviour in my family. My mother got so pissed, even though that very month, I had already given her $2500 towards some renovations on the house.
Yeah, I come from a culture where children and the "rich" relatives overseas are expected to pick up the slack for parents and relatives back home, even if some of these relatives have never worked, gone to school or attempted to improve their living situation.
Anyhow, that's my personal rant. In my next post I'll articulate what options I see you having. I'm so irritated for you!
xo
palmera