kicking this string back up again... so I may rant (sorry)
So I am visiting my mom, and we talked about expenses. She only has $30K so left for living expenses. And she said she expects to use them all up within a year.
The good news is:
- I have already made her transfer money to me last year as "emergency medical expense". This is under the context that, well, if she is in a medical emergency it is unlikely she has the energy to access those funds. So better give them to me now. Well, at least between the CDN medical system, forced savings I am holding for her, plus me and my sis' help if really needed she will be taken care of in emergency situations
(more to come, gotta leave now)
dealing with relatives with money problems
hey bluepearl, some questions:
does your mom work? is there anyway for her to work?
where does she life? Canada?
I ask because as of now, it looks like the year long countdown until you start supporting your mother 100% is ON.
I came across this blog that really helped me deal with the financially helping family thing: http://agaishanlife.blogspot.com/
We seem to have lots in common with her!
does your mom work? is there anyway for her to work?
where does she life? Canada?
I ask because as of now, it looks like the year long countdown until you start supporting your mother 100% is ON.
I came across this blog that really helped me deal with the financially helping family thing: http://agaishanlife.blogspot.com/
We seem to have lots in common with her!
Hey @palmera, yeah, thanks I saw the blog recommendation a few days ago from your site actually and have been pursuing her blogposts.
Continuing from my rant above… gals and guys, I am not even thinking about early retirement right now b/c I simply can’t afford it. Do give me some advice on how a normal, prudent saver should handle this.
My mom’s was earning the USD equivalent of (I am guessing) $30-40K per year (not a lot of money, but it was also 15 years ago so probably a much meaningful amount) before she retired. She is the type of person though who would spend $98-99 if she earns $100. And now I realize even if she stops earning she still spends $97 and brags that she’s saving that one or two dollars! And since her last job she has always lived on proceeds from the sale of her houses (she has won the real estate lotteries twice in her lifetime). She is now 64 so very unlikely for her to work now. She now lives in the greater vancouver area.
She wasn’t able to come to Canada except that I sponsored her. I was in University, and Dad paid for my tuition and living expenses. Dad had nothing to do with her then, so I worked 32-40 hours per week, mostly midnight and weekend shifts for a bank while in school so I can get employment income under my name, in order to sponsor mom to Canada. (I understand what revanche was living through to some extent). This was also the reason I was able to get a condo right out of school with her, b/c I was earning practically full time salary but didn’t need it to cover tuition. We got a condo on Toronto’s king west village and this was her second real estate lottery winnings.
It was really tough once she gets here b/c we argued a lot about expenses and that she thinks that I’m way too cheap, and just like dad! It was a relief to us both that she sold her house and then could use the money for a while. The plan was always to downsize (and move across the country from Toronto to Vancouver – by that time sis and I were both working on the west coast of US), get her own house again, and have at least some of her expenses covered by the house money, and us girls would cover some.
I would admit that I completely ignore her spending habits in the last few years. Technically it was her money, and when I nagged about reducing spending while still searching her new place the response was always “well, guess what, I am spending my own money, it’s none of your business” And I really can’t say much…
Except, when she is spending her own money and I am not keeping a tight watch over it, the house money disappeared.
When I realized it was sort of too late. So last summer I committed all of my non-retirement savings (this included a loan from my 401K, plus a draw down from my own home equity, other than my now reduced retirement funds I have nothing to show for 10 years of work!), pooled it together with whatever is left of her house money, and we are getting her a condo here in BC.
I think I mentioned it earlier. We can pay the condo in full, but I want to have some money on the side and not have everything tied up in her house, plus I think if I get a mortgage she will nag me less to give her additional spending money.
What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me. As in she seems to think that sis and I started Google or Apple, or have full-fledged toy factories in China… I.e. she thinks we can afford it all and more, and we are just way too cheap to provide for her… Providing for parents is part of the Asian family expectations, and I wouldn’t to really mind giving her a reasonable amount of spending money. I am perfectly fine providing her with basic living expenses along with my sister. Now the definition isn’t a ERE definition. So I am thinking she can still have her basic cable service, a cellphone, the occasional dining out or haircut. I am already shouldering all the housing related expenses (I am thinking I will take over real estate taxes and condo fees, don’t want to trust her with handling these expenses when my name is on the mortgage). All I am asking is that she keeps the rest of her spending reasonable so she is leaving us some breathing room. While she keeps on complaining that food is more expensive in Canada than in US blah blah blah (this I agree), when you delved into the spending records you will notice that she eats lunch outside every day and it costs $11 per meal, 20 or so entries per month for lunches! Hi! How about making some of the food yourself? When you are basically sitting at home all day? I am fine if you occasionally eat out with neighbors as part of the socializing but eating out every day by yourself??? And do you notice that you are drawing down your house principal with these lunches? I am perfectly fine if you have $1M retirement funds and withdrawing $30k per year and spend it on whatever. *fuming* Just can’t believe she is this irresponsible!
OK, if you look at my dining/ spending records I will admit that I have also suffered from lifestyle inflation over the years, (but I have saved over 40% of my lifetime earnings still, ahem). I have told others to be “the change you and I want to see”. So, I have migrated from dining out constantly and spending money freely to almost zero dining out (my recent dining out are all treats with her). I even invited her to stay with me for a week, so she can see how I am able to make all my meals myself and be an example etc etc.
Yet she wouldn’t bulge. She thinks she has to have these expenses. When pressed she also laughed it off saying that she doctored her expense records (padded her expenses, so she can have some secret money…) I am really not sure which is more upsetting to me. To have $11 lunches daily, or to lie, even just to herself, when it’s her own house money she is frittering away.
There is also a slight possibility she used the $ elsewhere other than all the junks she purchased. But where? Gambling? Keeping a hottie on the side? (I don’t think she’s wasting $ on drinking, though…:P
Basically she lost all my trust. She lost my trust 10 years ago (over something I don’t really want to air out here), and I really don’t want to trust her again, but I can’t abandon her when she needs basic living expenses covered. I just don’t want to cover for all the frivolous expenses and I don’t want to fight and argue every time.
So, to summarize:
-she has her basic emergency medical needs covered (her own money, but I am holding it now so it’s safe!)
-she has her housing expense covered (a mixture of her and my money)
-she doesn’t have living expense covered beyond next year. It’s ok for me and my sister (also frugal, a super good saver) to help. But we both think mom is extremely wasteful, and we don’t want to fund wasteful expenses, when we are better money managers and we also want to think about our own retirement, our own houses, our own lives…
Tips? Ideas? Thanks a ton for reading through this super long rant!
Continuing from my rant above… gals and guys, I am not even thinking about early retirement right now b/c I simply can’t afford it. Do give me some advice on how a normal, prudent saver should handle this.
My mom’s was earning the USD equivalent of (I am guessing) $30-40K per year (not a lot of money, but it was also 15 years ago so probably a much meaningful amount) before she retired. She is the type of person though who would spend $98-99 if she earns $100. And now I realize even if she stops earning she still spends $97 and brags that she’s saving that one or two dollars! And since her last job she has always lived on proceeds from the sale of her houses (she has won the real estate lotteries twice in her lifetime). She is now 64 so very unlikely for her to work now. She now lives in the greater vancouver area.
She wasn’t able to come to Canada except that I sponsored her. I was in University, and Dad paid for my tuition and living expenses. Dad had nothing to do with her then, so I worked 32-40 hours per week, mostly midnight and weekend shifts for a bank while in school so I can get employment income under my name, in order to sponsor mom to Canada. (I understand what revanche was living through to some extent). This was also the reason I was able to get a condo right out of school with her, b/c I was earning practically full time salary but didn’t need it to cover tuition. We got a condo on Toronto’s king west village and this was her second real estate lottery winnings.
It was really tough once she gets here b/c we argued a lot about expenses and that she thinks that I’m way too cheap, and just like dad! It was a relief to us both that she sold her house and then could use the money for a while. The plan was always to downsize (and move across the country from Toronto to Vancouver – by that time sis and I were both working on the west coast of US), get her own house again, and have at least some of her expenses covered by the house money, and us girls would cover some.
I would admit that I completely ignore her spending habits in the last few years. Technically it was her money, and when I nagged about reducing spending while still searching her new place the response was always “well, guess what, I am spending my own money, it’s none of your business” And I really can’t say much…
Except, when she is spending her own money and I am not keeping a tight watch over it, the house money disappeared.
When I realized it was sort of too late. So last summer I committed all of my non-retirement savings (this included a loan from my 401K, plus a draw down from my own home equity, other than my now reduced retirement funds I have nothing to show for 10 years of work!), pooled it together with whatever is left of her house money, and we are getting her a condo here in BC.
I think I mentioned it earlier. We can pay the condo in full, but I want to have some money on the side and not have everything tied up in her house, plus I think if I get a mortgage she will nag me less to give her additional spending money.
What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me. As in she seems to think that sis and I started Google or Apple, or have full-fledged toy factories in China… I.e. she thinks we can afford it all and more, and we are just way too cheap to provide for her… Providing for parents is part of the Asian family expectations, and I wouldn’t to really mind giving her a reasonable amount of spending money. I am perfectly fine providing her with basic living expenses along with my sister. Now the definition isn’t a ERE definition. So I am thinking she can still have her basic cable service, a cellphone, the occasional dining out or haircut. I am already shouldering all the housing related expenses (I am thinking I will take over real estate taxes and condo fees, don’t want to trust her with handling these expenses when my name is on the mortgage). All I am asking is that she keeps the rest of her spending reasonable so she is leaving us some breathing room. While she keeps on complaining that food is more expensive in Canada than in US blah blah blah (this I agree), when you delved into the spending records you will notice that she eats lunch outside every day and it costs $11 per meal, 20 or so entries per month for lunches! Hi! How about making some of the food yourself? When you are basically sitting at home all day? I am fine if you occasionally eat out with neighbors as part of the socializing but eating out every day by yourself??? And do you notice that you are drawing down your house principal with these lunches? I am perfectly fine if you have $1M retirement funds and withdrawing $30k per year and spend it on whatever. *fuming* Just can’t believe she is this irresponsible!
OK, if you look at my dining/ spending records I will admit that I have also suffered from lifestyle inflation over the years, (but I have saved over 40% of my lifetime earnings still, ahem). I have told others to be “the change you and I want to see”. So, I have migrated from dining out constantly and spending money freely to almost zero dining out (my recent dining out are all treats with her). I even invited her to stay with me for a week, so she can see how I am able to make all my meals myself and be an example etc etc.
Yet she wouldn’t bulge. She thinks she has to have these expenses. When pressed she also laughed it off saying that she doctored her expense records (padded her expenses, so she can have some secret money…) I am really not sure which is more upsetting to me. To have $11 lunches daily, or to lie, even just to herself, when it’s her own house money she is frittering away.
There is also a slight possibility she used the $ elsewhere other than all the junks she purchased. But where? Gambling? Keeping a hottie on the side? (I don’t think she’s wasting $ on drinking, though…:P
Basically she lost all my trust. She lost my trust 10 years ago (over something I don’t really want to air out here), and I really don’t want to trust her again, but I can’t abandon her when she needs basic living expenses covered. I just don’t want to cover for all the frivolous expenses and I don’t want to fight and argue every time.
So, to summarize:
-she has her basic emergency medical needs covered (her own money, but I am holding it now so it’s safe!)
-she has her housing expense covered (a mixture of her and my money)
-she doesn’t have living expense covered beyond next year. It’s ok for me and my sister (also frugal, a super good saver) to help. But we both think mom is extremely wasteful, and we don’t want to fund wasteful expenses, when we are better money managers and we also want to think about our own retirement, our own houses, our own lives…
Tips? Ideas? Thanks a ton for reading through this super long rant!
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LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
Yikes bluepearl. What a mess. Not much advice to give here except that it is critical that you really think about what you think your duties are, and discuss them with sister, and discuss what you will and will not support, what you will and will not give, and what lines will not be crossed. Set your boundaries now. It sounds like this is the type of person who takes a mile when you give an inch, so you'll likely have to be very clear and firm on where the support stops, and make sure it stops there. I understand that you want Mom to be comfortable, but is it really realistic that she not work at all? Perhaps she could do some kind of office work, receptionist, transcription, stay at home customer service (Uhaul does this) for 10 hours a week or something, make her put some skin on the line, so when you tell her no to some nice-but-not-essential expense, she has the possibility to earn the income herself. Just some ideas. Good luck, I hope you find a solution you are comfortable with but also you can afford.
hey bluepearl, wowie. I'm going to read your post a couple more times throughout the day and respond properly tonight (Toronto time!). But for now, I will say this:
"What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me."
Yes, yes, yes. For my entire teens, my mom talked about how should couldn't wait until I left for university (I got straight As, stayed out of trouble, but would disappear all weekend long). Then, as soon as I graduated and got a full-time job, she set about demanding money from me to pay her back for the times she helped me out with school (a few hundred dollars here and there) and also hung over my head the fact that she was a single mother and endured such hardship to raise me, etc, etc.
It's only in the past year that I realized how much I've been manipulated. The woman makes fairly good money, so I don't understand why she couldn't dig herself out of whatever hole she was in (partially due to health/personal/family reasons). I guess because her children are grown/independent (although my younger sibling lived with her, contributing absolutely NOTHING to the household, until I moved in this September and kicked him out), she used her new found freedom to do all the things she's always wanted to do, including several trips to the States and the Caribbean, as well as ski trips to Vermont and Quebec. She also refuses to downgrade her highend, foreign car.
Even up until recently, she asked me for $50 to contribute to a sick relative's expenses back in the old country. I politely declined, as this cousin has never worked a day in her life, instead relying on cash gifts from our large network of relatives overseas in Western countries. I may sound heartless, but I just can't encourage parasitic behaviour in my family. My mother got so pissed, even though that very month, I had already given her $2500 towards some renovations on the house.
Yeah, I come from a culture where children and the "rich" relatives overseas are expected to pick up the slack for parents and relatives back home, even if some of these relatives have never worked, gone to school or attempted to improve their living situation.
Anyhow, that's my personal rant. In my next post I'll articulate what options I see you having. I'm so irritated for you!
xo
palmera
"What really pisses me off is that she thinks she deserves $ from me."
Yes, yes, yes. For my entire teens, my mom talked about how should couldn't wait until I left for university (I got straight As, stayed out of trouble, but would disappear all weekend long). Then, as soon as I graduated and got a full-time job, she set about demanding money from me to pay her back for the times she helped me out with school (a few hundred dollars here and there) and also hung over my head the fact that she was a single mother and endured such hardship to raise me, etc, etc.
It's only in the past year that I realized how much I've been manipulated. The woman makes fairly good money, so I don't understand why she couldn't dig herself out of whatever hole she was in (partially due to health/personal/family reasons). I guess because her children are grown/independent (although my younger sibling lived with her, contributing absolutely NOTHING to the household, until I moved in this September and kicked him out), she used her new found freedom to do all the things she's always wanted to do, including several trips to the States and the Caribbean, as well as ski trips to Vermont and Quebec. She also refuses to downgrade her highend, foreign car.
Even up until recently, she asked me for $50 to contribute to a sick relative's expenses back in the old country. I politely declined, as this cousin has never worked a day in her life, instead relying on cash gifts from our large network of relatives overseas in Western countries. I may sound heartless, but I just can't encourage parasitic behaviour in my family. My mother got so pissed, even though that very month, I had already given her $2500 towards some renovations on the house.
Yeah, I come from a culture where children and the "rich" relatives overseas are expected to pick up the slack for parents and relatives back home, even if some of these relatives have never worked, gone to school or attempted to improve their living situation.
Anyhow, that's my personal rant. In my next post I'll articulate what options I see you having. I'm so irritated for you!
xo
palmera
I will second (third?) what mike & bigato have said. I know this is not the female way of doing things, you want to be caring and supportive, but it just allows a person to continue to abuse the situation, and oh yes, they will.
I say this from experience. My mother, while not looking for money (thankfully) was manipulative and (well... other things I don't need to get into here). I too tried to "be nice" and get along. One day she went too far and I told her if she did one more thing I would refuse to talk with her. And when she wouldn't stop, communication ceased. For over 10 years.
In the past 7 so years we now talk and I will visit on occassion, and though she has never appologized for her behavior, she doesn't do any of the things she used to. In fact she is very nice to me now. I've made it clear if it starts again I am out the door immediately, and she has toed the line since.
This may not encourage you as it took a long time to get it across to my mother, but you need to be firm (and probably make sure your sister is with you 100%) and stick with your decision no matter how long it takes. (I had the benefit of being an only child - no coordination was needed.) Not backing down is going to be the most important thing, because once you do you will lose whatever progress you've made.
If you feel you will "look" bad to relatives/others (and you care), be proactive and let them know just what is going on and why. And if they still want to make you out to be a bad person, then let them. What's more important, their happiness or yours?
Oh, and lastly, I agree you (or your sister) should offer to take her in with the proviso of being in charge of finances. No more money to her otherwise from here on out from both of you. If she refuses, then that is "her choice". If she chooses that path, then you are not bad person here - period. I can't emphasize that strongly enough.
I say this from experience. My mother, while not looking for money (thankfully) was manipulative and (well... other things I don't need to get into here). I too tried to "be nice" and get along. One day she went too far and I told her if she did one more thing I would refuse to talk with her. And when she wouldn't stop, communication ceased. For over 10 years.
In the past 7 so years we now talk and I will visit on occassion, and though she has never appologized for her behavior, she doesn't do any of the things she used to. In fact she is very nice to me now. I've made it clear if it starts again I am out the door immediately, and she has toed the line since.
This may not encourage you as it took a long time to get it across to my mother, but you need to be firm (and probably make sure your sister is with you 100%) and stick with your decision no matter how long it takes. (I had the benefit of being an only child - no coordination was needed.) Not backing down is going to be the most important thing, because once you do you will lose whatever progress you've made.
If you feel you will "look" bad to relatives/others (and you care), be proactive and let them know just what is going on and why. And if they still want to make you out to be a bad person, then let them. What's more important, their happiness or yours?
Oh, and lastly, I agree you (or your sister) should offer to take her in with the proviso of being in charge of finances. No more money to her otherwise from here on out from both of you. If she refuses, then that is "her choice". If she chooses that path, then you are not bad person here - period. I can't emphasize that strongly enough.
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Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am
In a nutshell, I agree 100% with bigato and BennKar. She's gonna have to live with one of you.
I know, the logistics will be complicated as you're across the border and she's up in Van city. She'd probably prefer to stay Van because of the huge Chinese/HK diaspora...is your sister in BC? Could you get a job in BC?
I saw the writing on the wall with my own mom and decided to move in and take control of the situation before it spiraled even more. Living with moms isn't so bad - we've only had one spat in 3.5 months and because I'm now grown-up, I responded to her toxicity with calm so all went well. And anyway, moms is a spectacular cook. Spectacular. And the house is just large enough that we're not up in each other's grills.
So yeah, she has to live with either one of you so you can keep an eye on her. Plus, maybe she's lonely and that's why she's out of control. A cry for attention + resentment.
Give her a weekly allowance for the amount you see reasonable.
ALSO, is there anyway you could shake your dad down for some cash?
You know, I expected the whole parent-child role reversal at 50+ years old...not 30. Kind of a harsh reality. Such is life.
p.s. it's great that your sister is involved as well. My mother could be out on the street begging and my sibling would probably steal the change out of her cup when she wasn't looking.
I know, the logistics will be complicated as you're across the border and she's up in Van city. She'd probably prefer to stay Van because of the huge Chinese/HK diaspora...is your sister in BC? Could you get a job in BC?
I saw the writing on the wall with my own mom and decided to move in and take control of the situation before it spiraled even more. Living with moms isn't so bad - we've only had one spat in 3.5 months and because I'm now grown-up, I responded to her toxicity with calm so all went well. And anyway, moms is a spectacular cook. Spectacular. And the house is just large enough that we're not up in each other's grills.
So yeah, she has to live with either one of you so you can keep an eye on her. Plus, maybe she's lonely and that's why she's out of control. A cry for attention + resentment.
Give her a weekly allowance for the amount you see reasonable.
ALSO, is there anyway you could shake your dad down for some cash?
You know, I expected the whole parent-child role reversal at 50+ years old...not 30. Kind of a harsh reality. Such is life.
p.s. it's great that your sister is involved as well. My mother could be out on the street begging and my sibling would probably steal the change out of her cup when she wasn't looking.
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George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
It's great that your sister is involved, but don't let your mother play the two of you off against each other.
As BennKar said, if you're worried about how the relatives will perceive the situation, put them in the loop and ask for advice. I did that when my sister couldn't make the rent after squandering her student loan and they were most helpful.
As BennKar said, if you're worried about how the relatives will perceive the situation, put them in the loop and ask for advice. I did that when my sister couldn't make the rent after squandering her student loan and they were most helpful.