Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

All the different ways of solving the shelter problem. To be static or mobile? Roots, legs, or wheels?
Allagash
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Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Allagash »

I'm a single guy I pay a lot of rent in the Seattle metro area, and rent keeps rising rapidly with no end in sight. I pay about $1,250/mo for a very average 1 bedroom apt in a very average area (that includes water/sewer/garbage). This will likely rise to at least $1,325/mo when my lease is up in 7 mos. My investments pay all my bills so I am not tied to have to live any one place for work.

Rent is by far my biggest expense and by far the most difficult for me to hack. Because at this point of my life I don't want to do roommates and I need a least a semi-decent place to live to be happy.

I want to make a move of some sort when my lease is up. I have some possibly areas of the U.S. in mind to move to. Most of the places I want to live do not have low rents though. So I've also considered full time RV-ing. Plan would be follow the weather...4 mos warmer winter area, 4 mos in shoulder seasons spring/fall in a in between place as I made my way north in summer and south in winter, and 4 mos in a nice summer area. Would probably rotate locations, but probably would park RV in three main locations a year (winter, shoulder, summer) vs. doing a lot of running around with it.

I don't see full time RV-ing as that much cheaper than my current rent, unless you go bare bones on your rig, "workcamp" where you go for a free site, and/or boondock camp off the grid. I'm not totally sure yet, but I may spend a lot of my time in RV parks or campgrounds with hook-ups paying their monthly rates. But I think it could be close to a wash or maybe a bit less than paying the rent that I pay now. And as a benefit for the same or less cost of rent, I could chase weather vs. being in one area with 7-8 mos of chilly overcast winters, bad traffic, and having to take winter vacations.

The five main NEW costs I see with RV-ing vs. apartment living are depreciation of your rig, maintenance and repairs, gas, campground fees, insurance. The rest of costs don't seem like they would change that much from apartment life (food, healthcare, cell phone, gym, restaurants, plane trips to see family, clothes, recreation, etc...). So I would trade my annual rent for these 5 NEW RV-ing costs.

I've been binge reading a lot of full time RV-ing bloggers and RV forums. Some posts their annual expenses. It frustrates me though that most do not include depreciation of their rig into their RV-ing costs (I like to estimate depreciation as a monthly cost). All these folks have different RV-ing lifestyles....some don't move around much, some do, some "workcamp" for free sites and boondock a lot, some don't, etc... Monthly average ranges I saw with full time budgets....gas $294-$497/mo, campsites $350-$470/mo, maintenance/repairs $157-$423. Gas was BOTH for their rig and their small vehicle they towed for daily driving around. And maintenance was for BOTH their rig and their small vehicle they towed for daily driving around. If you are at the high end of these ranges for gas, campsites, maint/repairs...you could be well above rent (if low or mid range I would be below rent). Then of course you have depreciation of you rig.

The other choice is what RV rig. I would probably go with a Class C motorhome and tow a small car for daily driving. Or I could go with a pick up truck + pull a travel trailer or 5th wheel. Problem with the latter is then your day to day car is a large gas guzzling pick up truck (that are very expensive to buy up front too). Plus towing a trailer has it's downsides with safety and PITA.

I'm not a mechanic type, so I worry about buying a used RV and endless repair nightmares.

I'm curious if any people that are FI have chosen to live a full time snowbird lifestyle in a RV?

enigmaT120
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by enigmaT120 »

If you buy a used RV and maintain it well, it probably won't depreciate. I haven't checked the prices for 1960s Airstream trailers, but they seem popular. I think most depreciation happens when you buy it new and drive it off the lot.

Allagash
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Allagash »

Yes Airstreams hold value pretty well. So do the smaller fiberglass trailers (Casita, Scamp, Burro). But the downside with these types that hold value well is they can be very pricey even used.

Motorhomes (Class C and Class A) do depreciate a lot, even if bought used I imagine they will still see decent depreciation as you put miles and years on them (more than a car). They can be complicated vehicles to maintain because you have a big engine and then also the whole home on wheels part with all the systems and appliances..

bryan
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by bryan »

What attracts you to an RV over a van like the Sprinter?

Allagash
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Allagash »

bryan wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:20 pm
What attracts you to an RV over a van like the Sprinter?
Sprinter may be an option. Vans are pretty small for full time living IMO. I want enough space to be able to do work on my laptop from the RV and feel comfortable. Class B vans can be crazy high priced too. I looked at the Roadtrek and felt small and cramped inside for full time living. Class C motorhomes had so much more head room and space.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by classical_Liberal »

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Last edited by classical_Liberal on Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bryan
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by bryan »

Have you tried camping in an RV or Sprinter? Would it be possible to give either a trial-run for a week or more? From what I can tell the van removes all the negatives you listed. It depends on your hobbies and needs as to how much square footage you really need. The Class B RVs on the market are not optimized for living in full time; you will have to build it out yourself or figure out how to source a suitable one.

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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by jacob »

Old anecdotal experience only here.

Class A/C don't really hold their value (unless you start really low, I guess, like an 1980s model). It's like car depreciation times X because there's a home on top of it. You buy a home that depreciates like a car. Occasionally, the vehicle part of the RV will have to go in for repair (very few parks will allow you to play backyard mechanic) so that means your entire home is in the garage too.

For snowbirding, you only have to move twice a year. The truck+5th/TT seems like a much better deal. However, the reason we bought a class A was that DW was commuting at the time 30-60mins (there were no parks in the city she worked in that would take dogs :evil: ) and gas prices were ~$5/gal, so buying a truck when filling the tank would be near $100 didn't seem smart. The alternative would be to find a location where you wouldn't need to snowbird.

If you were more into traveling constantly, then the motorhomes make sense because as you note they're easier to drive ... and more convenient too (you can go from the driver seat to the kitchen). Staying under 25' will make it a lot easier to go into cities, etc. This is important for getting propane. We had a 34' class A (NEVER AGAIN!) ... and I remember having to scout out approaches to get to the propane gas-station because certain turns on the narrow roads were simply impossible. A class B or a van conversion is even easier since you now fit into parking spots. This also means you can take it shopping.

Allagash
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Allagash »

My thinking on towing a small economy car behind a Class C is it would give me a lot of mobility wherever I go. I don't think a scooter or E bike would work. I would want to go on day hikes, explore the area, go shopping, go to events. I would only have to drive the RV when I moved it to a new spot. Would plan on staying each spot minimum 1 month.

My thinking would be I would move the RV about 5-6 times a year:
-summer location would be 4 months park the RV one location OR/WA/Canada, or maybe some years higher elevation CO/MT/WY or if did east coast ME/VT/NH/upstate NY/Canada maritime provinces
-fall location would be 1-2 months on my way down to the winter location
-winter location would be 4 months probably low desert Arizona (of if summering on east coast the southeast U.S. or TX)
-spring location would be 1-2 months on way driving up to summer location

I think if I went with a really small travel trailer or 5th wheel a 1/2 ton may work. But every forum I read long time RV-ers always say get more truck then you need. 1/2 ton truck would not be so bad for daily driving, but 3/4 or 1 ton might be. I already have a small car I could possibly tow behind a Class C, so I would have to compare the prices of a pick up truck + travel trailer vs. a Class C MH.

Campgrounds are something I would have to research cost on. I would do monthly stays to keep cost down somewhat. But in season I'm sure it's not easy to find a space and not cheap. I'm thinking I want to be within striking distance to a scenic town or small city I wouldn't mind hanging out in, working from coffee shops, getting to know some local people, etc.... Many RV-ers stay free in National Forests or BLM land and "dry camp" using their solar power set ups, composting toilets, etc... I don't think I would want to be that far from civilization. NF and BLM land tend to be pretty far outside of towns. Then again I don't want to be packed in like sardines in a urban RV park with loud road noise, etc... So it will take finding RV parks/campgrounds with a balance.

I think the best way to go to stay cheap, limit depreciation, get a easy to maintain highly mobile vehicle would be to get a cargo van (Chevy Express, GMC Savannah) a few years old and hire a carpenter to build a bed platform bolted to floor, some shelving with plywood, insulate entire interior with some nice wood paneling around it, and then get it wired with batteries and generator and maybe solar. Maybe get a composting toilet. Add a swivel to the passenger side seat to double as a lounge/work chair. Great for urban stealth camping too. Love the simplicity of this option. But I think a cargo van would be just too small for me for full timing living/working, rainy days, etc...

So probably a smaller 25' Class C say pulling a small economy car, or a pick up truck pulling maybe a 22-24' trailer or 5th wheel are my options.

I'm not sure there is one affordable area in the U.S. that could give me everything I needed over a 12 mos period so trying RV-ing is an interesting option. Rents & house prices are really climbing fast in the places of the U.S. I would want to live (PNW, rocky mnt states, or new england). In the last 4-5 years rents are up 50-70% and house prices up 80% in the Puget Sound area of WA where I live!

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jennypenny
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by jennypenny »

I prefer driving a TT to a 5th because the 5ths are pretty high. Either way, they probably make more sense than a class C (although that's my favorite TBH). I loved our pop-up.

Laura Ingalls
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Laura Ingalls »

I know several "full-timer" sorts that are all 60-70 somethings. They generally seasonally reposition versus travel all the time. They use a variety of set ups but the 5th wheel with a one ton or 3/4ton truck is the most common.

We have an older, 26 foot 5th wheel with no slid outs. While you could pull it with a 1/2 ton I would not feel comfortable doing it more than about 25 miles in cool weather with no big hills. On the other hand you could just have two spots a yearly and pay someone to move it and drive what ever car you want.

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Jean
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Jean »

I have a peugeot 806, and I sometime think it's too big.
If you're single, I really don't see any reason to have anything bigger than a car.

jacob
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by jacob »

Campground (not trailer parks) fees usually follow the schedule where the weekly fee = 6 daily fees and the monthly fee = 3 weekly fees. Daily price depends on location and facilities. A good tourist destination with a pool and minimart is $30-40/day. Podunk with a shared thunderbox is $5-10/day but you might not be able to drive the massive rig you're planning in there(*). BLM is free.

Some trailer parks (mixed RV and mobile homes) will allow you to park on a month-to-month basis (no deposit, no lease). They are much cheaper than campgrounds since they're intended as home sites, not tourist destinations. Here you'll mainly find 5th wheels being pulled by work trucks owner by construction workers who move around for their jobs. Monthly rent will be ~50% of the rent for a 1bd/1ba apt. in the same city. (That's the kind of place we lived in.)

Some tourist campground will offer 6 month leases at a heavy discount (snowbirds). We visited a fancy one (full of old geezers farting around in golf carts) in Upstate NY with stocked fish ponds (plural), golf, horseshoes, fireworks, car shows, etc. that was ~$2000 for 6 months.

(*) Some parks will^H^H^H^Hcan not let you in if you're longer than 25' because you simply don't fit. Another argument for small (B or conversion) is that you could just "boondock" in the no-hookup zones and still use their dump station.

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C40
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by C40 »

If you haven't already, take a look at my journals and blog. I've been living in a self converted van and traveling around the western US for the last year.

My journal - Van stuff starts around here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1344&start=325

Blog: http://mywilddreams.net/blog Includes some posts on spending. I've spent around $700 per month while doing one big loop around the western half of the U.S. in one year

Van conversion journal: http://www.cheaprvliving.com/forums/Thr ... ion-thread



If you haven't already, check out Randy Vining's blog (mobilekodgers). He's one of the people traveling full time who are not spendy. There are some really spendy folks living in RVs blowing like $200k on an RV or trailer and truck, and then spending $1,000/month on just campgrounds or RV parks. That's a shit way to do it even regardless of the money because there's so much to deal with, and so much to go wrong, and because they are extremely limited on locations.

As for vehicle types. For the kind of vehicle living I do, where I travel around continuously, and where I'm solo, (staying sometimes a week in one spot without starting the van, and some other times moving every few days, and drifting through one state over 1-3 months), the best option is finding one of the older style cargo vans from Ford, Chevy or Dodge that is in good condition and converting it yourself. Get one with a high top if you want. A euro syle van would only be worth it if you REALLY want more space than you can get with a high top on an older style van AND if you drive a TON and the better fuel mileage is worth it.

I think for your expected living pattern, you're on track with your ideas. I suggest that you don't need nearly as much space as you're thinking you do. You're just used to having so much more space than you need right now that it's hard to tell how little you really need. When I built my van, I told myself that after a while, if I want to, I'd put a high top on it. And if I felt I was sure I wanted to keep living in a van for more years, I could buy a Euro style van and convert that so I'll have more space. While it would be nice to stand, I haven't actually though about putting on a high-top, and I definitely don't want a euro van (mainly because they can't go places my van can)

If I was you I'd probably get a small trailer and a medium sized truck. Some folks do just fine without the giant trucks that the spendy RV crowd says "you need". (Randy Vining is an example, as he uses a little Chevy S-10 to pull his trailer, and he moves at least once a month, and it seems to work fine for him)

If you're doing this primarily as a way to reduce your spending, the most important element will be where you park it. RV parks are generally so expensive that living in one will never be worth it vs just staying in an apartment. Find ways to live cheaper. Maybe there are some RV parks where a long-term stay will be cheap. Of course, BLM and National Forests provide endless options for free (well, if you only want to move every few months AND want to be close to a lot people, that limits these options quite a lot, depending on what areas you'd like).

Investigate other types of arrangements. Here are some examples:
- A guy got hired to park his RV/trailer/van at a Christmas tree farm for November and December. He was there as security. He didn't really have to do anything as his presence deterred thieves. The Christmas Tree people paid him like $5,000.
- People have property who, for one reason or another, would like to have a person present. Maybe it's to check on something every once in a while (easy things like whether a well pump is still operational, or whether the gates closed)
- People also have property who, just because you're nice and you ask, will let you park on their land for free or for very cheap.

Allagash
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Allagash »

Thanks Jacob and C40 for the info. Full time RV-ing is one of those things that I think is just really hard to tell before you do it what will work for you...what vehicle and size will be the adequate, and how you will travel (move around a lot? stay longer periods? areas with lower park fees). I do agree the converted cargo van is overall the best way to go financially and for mobility, not sure it would work for me though.

I'd like my RV related costs to be less than my $1,250/mo rent (soon to be at least $1,325/mo+ when they raise it again for sure in Jan 2018!). If it was $200/mo less then rent, I would be pretty happy. A big reason I'd be doing full time RV-ing is better winter/spring weather and to have a change in scenery.

I will check out your expenses C40 and mobile kodger. Here are some other good annual expense blogs I found. A young lady in her 30's at interstellarorchard.com pulls a 17" Casita with a Dodge Dakota. I think her total rig set up cost here <$20k 5 or so years ago (she's been full time RV-ing for 5 years). She spends less than $20k a year total on all living expenses roaming around the west chasing the weather, but she boondocks 90% of the time and does some work for free hookup sites in summer.

A lot of people doing full time RV-ing seem to go to the Quartzsite area of AZ for winters where it is easy to boondock free on the BLM land around there. Most have decent cell signals for phone & net. Most have solar set ups for power and every two weeks have to go dump tanks and take on water. Don't know if I would like Quartzsite, never been there, looks pretty isolated.

I read about one single lady in a Class C who spends $80 for the season pass for LTVA's in AZ and $225 a year for the annual state park membership in NM. She spends her winter in AZ and summers in NM going to higher elevations as seasons progress. So that is about $300 a year in total campground fees. Don't think I'd want to spend summers in NM though, but its not bad at all and would work for many. There are many scenic mountain areas of NM for summer.

In some car camping I've done around WA/OR...I found the free national forest areas to be very far from anything, and not very practical for daily living except for more off the grid RV hermit types. And a long way from any sort of decent town to get supplies and some social life.

Below are the RV annual expense bloggers I found with decent info. Seems like $3,500-$4,000/mo is what a average FT RV-er spends per month on ALL their monthly living expenses (including non RV expenses too like food, healthcare, cell, etc...everything). This does not count the initial sunk cost to buy the rig set up or include depreciation. The people that spend a lot less than that are doing a lot of boondocking, workamping, have very simple lives, have a smaller low cost rig, etc... Of course I'm sure there are people that spend $8k/mo on it too. Even the people spending $3,500/mo still do a lot of boondocking or workcamping.

http://wheelingit.us/2017/02/16/the-cos ... ics-links/
http://www.interstellarorchard.com/2017 ... me-report/
http://adventure.1tree.net/index.php/rv ... f-expenses
http://pastorscott.com/travel/tag/annual/
http://www.rv-dreams.com/financial-information.html
http://www.technomadia.com/the-finances ... afford-it/
http://roadslesstraveled.us/rv-budget/
https://rvlivingnow.com/how-much-does-i ... -in-an-rv/

George the original one
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by George the original one »

Your desire for urban exposure is the limiting factor in whether RVing will work at all for you. It may be a more satisfying lifestyle for you if you find a way to be a snowbird without an RV. Maybe timeshare hopping?

Riggerjack
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Riggerjack »

I could chase weather vs. being in one area with 7-8 mos of chilly overcast winters, bad traffic,
I think you meant:
I could chase weather vs. being in one area with 7-8 mos of chilly overcast summers, horrific, soul sucking traffic,

And you didn't even mention Seattle Tourette's. We are coming up on the season where all conversations contatain an outburst of "G'Hawks!!!".

Speaking as a Puget Sound landlord, if your rent only goes up to $1350, you're getting a great deal. I considered renting my Marysville house at 150% of previous rent, but I will sell it instead.

If you go this route, I would recommend trying to drive various setups. If I were doing it, I'd have a 3/4 ton pickup, and a 5th wheel. Mobility, and you can separate the mechanical from the housing. Cook the tranny on your truck, you can get a used tranny, and get it replaced anywhere, or get a new old truck. Cook the tranny on your RV, options are... Limited. Cook the tranny out of town, 200 miles from anywhere, you have invested in a good story you tell about how you used to live in an RV.

Allagash
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Allagash »

Riggerjack wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:48 pm
I could chase weather vs. being in one area with 7-8 mos of chilly overcast winters, bad traffic,
I think you meant:
I could chase weather vs. being in one area with 7-8 mos of chilly overcast summers, horrific, soul sucking traffic,

And you didn't even mention Seattle Tourette's. We are coming up on the season where all conversations contatain an outburst of "G'Hawks!!!".

Speaking as a Puget Sound landlord, if your rent only goes up to $1350, you're getting a great deal. I considered renting my Marysville house at 150% of previous rent, but I will sell it instead.

If you go this route, I would recommend trying to drive various setups. If I were doing it, I'd have a 3/4 ton pickup, and a 5th wheel. Mobility, and you can separate the mechanical from the housing. Cook the tranny on your truck, you can get a used tranny, and get it replaced anywhere, or get a new old truck. Cook the tranny on your RV, options are... Limited. Cook the tranny out of town, 200 miles from anywhere, you have invested in a good story you tell about how you used to live in an RV.
A lot of the Class C motohomes have Ford/Chevy gas truck engines I think any mechanic can work on. Diesels would be more expensive and harder to find a mechanic.

I'm a landlord too with San Diego property (might have to move back into a rental down there if rents keep skyrocketing everywhere! - then I would have that CA state income tax though too). I could jack the rents up on my tenants every year but I keep them reasonable since I have a great tenant. If they moved out I would raise rents some though. That's the nice thing about mom & pop landlords, they tend to not jack the rent every year on good tenants. The large corporate apartment complex's (where I am now) are all about increasing the net operating income on the building and maxing ROI for their investors, so they raise rent even last penny they can get away with.

Riggerjack
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by Riggerjack »

Yes, but access is limited, like in a van, with the added complications of size. Can you get it in the bay? Is there a lift that will work?

It used to be common to have big blocks in cars and trucks. Now they are much rarer. Making parts less common.

None of these should be deal breakers, but they are complications you should factor in.

sky
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Re: Full time RV-ing as a snowbird?

Post by sky »

I think the class c with a toad is a good idea if you limit your seasonal migration range. It will take a lot of fuel to cross the country. A lot of new RVers like to travel and explore, which costs money. After a few years when they settle down they can live on less money.

If you can be satisfied in Arizona, you can winter in SW AZ and summer in Flagstaff at higher elevations. Quartzite, Yuma and Ehrenberg are not attractive but warm. Flagstaff is nicer with urban amenities. Another winter option is Southern California near the Mexican border. Colorado and Utah have excellent summer boondocking areas. I hope to visit Baja Mexico as a winter destination.

After boondocking a few times, you will be spoiled and will not like RV parks. When boondocking you have space and some privacy, compared to RV parks where you are right next to the neighbor. The downside of boondocking is trashy areas which can get depressing. We usually took a trash bag or two of litter out with us as our camping "fee" for staying at boondocking sites. You can find areas of natural beauty but you have to do your research and look for them.

You generally can find good boondocking sites about 10 miles from a city, in some cases less. If you have a towed car, it is easy to get to town. You will be driving on rough gravel roads to get to most boondocking spots so I would recommend vehicles that are not new, because they will get scratched and dirty. You will need to be solar powered and will want to conserve water use.

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