Hedonic Inflation in the Bathroom

[Ego]

Bathrooms: The Decades-Long Rise of America's Obsession

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/li ... -obsession

In 1973, when the Department of Commerce tabulated the number of bathrooms in newly completed single-family homes. Forty percent of the new homes included, at most, 1.5 bathrooms. Another 40 percent included two bathrooms and the others included 2.5 bathrooms.

By 2015, the percentage of newly completed single-family homes with a maximum of 1.5 bathrooms plummeted from 40 percent to just 4 percent! The biggest category is now three or more bathrooms, with 38 percent fitting that description. And remember, that's for homes with an average of only about 2.5 people!

The author says this is part of our increasing need for personal space and privacy. In most of the world the bathroom is a room in which little time is spent. Get in, get out.

How does this fit with the tiny house movement? Is the hugh rise of the singleton lifestyle part of this need for more and more personal space? Assuming the growing need for privacy is learned, what can we do about it? How can we use the trend to our advantage? Should we resist the temptation to seek out our own clean, well-lighted place?

[George the original one]

Luxury bathrooms now have dual sinks, but why not dual toilets?

I don't know about the current trend, but 15 years ago the luxury showers could house a dozen people. Yes, significantly larger than required for an ADA wheelchair shower. Are the wealthy really having orgies in the shower and didn't invite us?

What percentage of floor space is devoted to walk-in closets?

***
I would think convertible space for showering is the ideal goal in a tiny home. Get in, get out, and put the wasted space back to use.

***
It was in the late '80s that the standard 2 car garage of a luxury home became a 3 car garage and then the 3rd stall had to fit an RV. While Americans still love their RVs, that garage trend seems to have unwound in home construction. Did RV ownership go back to being a lowerclass hobby? Or did the wealthy RVers just adopt the whole lifestyle and sell the home?

***
Knowing my own quirks (preference for long relaxing soak in the bathtub), I can only be amused by other people's bathroom activities.

[BRUTE]

brute would think shower space is hard to "put away" because of humidity concerns and piping.

brute has lived in a 2 person apartment with 4 bathrooms. sometimes, he'd use another bathroom just to see if everything still worked.

[7Wannabe5]

I think about issues like this all the time. One of my life-design bibles, "A Pattern Language", describes the modern trend as anti-hedonistic adaptation.

"The motions we call bathing are mere ablutions which formerly preceded the bath. The place where they are performed, though adequate for the routine, does not deserve to be called a bathroom." Bernard Rudofsky

Rudofsky points out that cleaning up is only a small part of bathing; that bathing as a whole is a far more basic activity, with therapeutic and pleasurable aspects. In bathing we tend ourselves, our bodies. It is one of the precious times when we are awake and absolutely naked. The relaxation of the bath puts us into sensual contact with water. It is one of the most direct and simple ways of unwinding. And, most astonishing, there is even evidence that we become less warlike when we tend to ourselves and our children in this way.

Cross culturally there is a correlation between the degree to which a society places restrictions on bodily pleasure-particularly in childhood- and the degree to which the society engages in the glorification of warfare and sadistic practices. (Philip Slater, "Pursuit of Loneliness, Boston: Beacon Press, 1970)...

Contrast our approach to the bath, tub, and shower with these words, written in 1935 by Nikos Kazantzakis, the Greek novelist and poet, after his first Japanese bath:

" I feel unsurpassed happiness. I put on the kimono, wear the wooden sandals, return to my room, drink more tea, and, from the open wall, watch the pilgrims as they go up the road beating drums. ...I have overcome impatience, nervousness, haste. I enjoy every single second of these simple moments I spend. Happiness, I think, is a simple everyday miracle, like water, and we are not aware of it."

We start, then, with the assumption that there are strong and profound reasons for making something pleasant out of bathing, and that there is something quite wrong with our present way of building several small and separate bathrooms, one for the master bedroom, one for children, perhaps one near the living room- each one of them a compact efficient box.

...Therefore:

Concentrate the bathing room, toilets, showers, and basins of the house in a single tiled area, Locate this bathing room beside the couple's realm- with private access-in a position half-way between the private secluded parts of the house and the common areas; if possible, give it access to the outdoors; perhaps a tiny balcony or walled garden.
Put in a large bath- large enough for at least two people to get completely immersed in water; an efficiency shower and basins for the actual business of cleaning; and two or three racks for huge towels-one by the door, one by the shower, one by the sink.

Of course, my general philosophy is that sensuality and self-indulgence are not concepts to be confused. The first is wholly in alignment with frugality and resource conservation over the long run, whereas the second is not. The hearth, the wall at your back, the open vista before you, the bathing pool...these are core psychological constructs which we sacrifice in pursuit of efficiency at our own peril. It is so important to somehow interact with other humans and/or the natural world at skin level in order to not to feel alienated. Who did you bathe with today?

[BRUTE]

... correlation between the degree to which a society places restrictions on bodily pleasure-particularly in childhood- and ... warfare and sadistic practices.

... written in 1935 ... first Japanese bath

[GandK]

How does this fit with the tiny house movement? Is the hugh rise of the singleton lifestyle part of this need for more and more personal space? Assuming the growing need for privacy is learned, what can we do about it? How can we use the trend to our advantage? Should we resist the temptation to seek out our own clean, well-lighted place?

I bet around 80% of the tiny house movement is people living on very limited means, mostly twenty somethings with no savings who want their own space and elderly with very limited pension pots. There are a handful of notable exceptions. I think it's mostly financial.

That said, I hope I have a tiny house someday.

Re privacy, I assume we are compensating for a lack of privacy in some areas of our lives by insisting on and enforcing it in other areas.

[Ego]

I guess I am trying to understand two trends that appear contradictory.

If you think of a tiny house in terms of square-foot per person then the most efficient uses would be accommodations where the kitchen, bath, and living areas are shared among many, as well as the support systems such as heat, hot water, roof, foundation, landscaping, electric, gas, repair and maintenance. I lived in a four story row house during college that had upwards of twenty people living in it at any one time sharing four bathrooms and one kitchen.

Boomers and to some extent we Xers grew up with bigger families in smaller homes so we learned to share the bathroom very early in life. In my family there were five of us with one toilet and shower. Today that ratio of 5/1, roughly the same as my college house, sounds insane. We simply had no choice so we learned to work together.

It seems tiny houses appeal to those who desire their own spaces. It can be hard to live in close proximity to others. I find myself saying this to tenants who frequently complain about their neighbors. Some people really struggle with it. It seems to me the proportion of people who find it difficult is increasing. More people need their own space AND they need a buffer between themselves and others.

That's where I'm confused. Dragline has mentioned on several occasions Howe's theory that Millennials are more collective in nature. I think Howe says something about how Millennials have collective personalities. I was watching a documentary that mentioned a left-wing, non-religious Kibbutz a few days ago. It mentioned how they shared everything. They really had collective personalities. I imagined the average American Millennial who grew up with their own bedroom, rumpus room and 4.5 bathrooms suddenly transported to the kibbutz where everything belongs to everyone. They would die.

Maybe my definition of collective is different from Howe's?

Potty training at a kibbutz

[vexed87]

I'm not gonna lie, I'd love to have a second bathroom, purely for the toilet ... SO has the worlds longest baths and always miraculously timed!

If I'm not so lucky when I move, I may well build one of these instead.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: lol- good eye.

@Ego: It's not just about privacy. In order to experience flow, you need a certain degree of autonomy, and in order to achieve autonomy, you often need a certain degree of authority or dominance over your environment. IOW, you need to either be in a realm where there are no rules OR in a realm where you are the one who makes the rules. For instance, I would never choose to live in a typical condominium complex because I would not be able to abide by strict rules governing personal expression in gardening, but I don't miss the freedom to ride my horse across all the lands.

Also, it often happens that when it comes to the maintenance of communal space or facilities, there is somebody who ends up with more responsibility than authority (black suck hole of life energy.) Often that person goes by the name of "Mom", or in wider context "taxpayer."

[Riggerjack]

Well, I live with my wife in a 3 bath house, so I can't speak from a tiny house perspective.

I can say that while I intend to have a smaller house, with 1.5-2 baths, they will take up more footage. I'm all for the efficiency half bath/guest bath. But I also believe in the vast master bath. Ours is 14x20, with dual showers,a separate 2 person soaking tub, dual vanities ( mine is taller), and a storage cabinet. The one in the retirement home will include dual wheelchair accessible showers, heated towel racks, a urinal and bidet or some crazy Japanese gadgetry, and heated floors.
Yes, it is ridiculously overdone, but worth it.

My idea of a smaller house is 1200 sq ft, with a huge shop. I think the tiny house movement is mainly a grownup version of building forts out of cardboard boxes and couch cushions, and rarely much more durable. Usually, they look good, simply because we all love wood trim, but I don't think any of them are much more durable than the mass produced plastic RV's they displace.

But then, I've been called opinionated, before...

[Ego]

IOW, you need to either be in a realm where there are no rules OR in a realm where you are the one who makes the rules.

But look at it from a global perspective. Then again from a historic perspective.

We in the U.S. are very different from most of the world in this respect. My grandparents brought up a whole family in a space not much larger than Riggers bathroom. Heck, my place right now is not much bigger.

It is an interesting trend. I think I mentioned before that I once had a job managing a large facility that had a small convenience store with a soda fountain. I left that job and returned three years later to help them with a project. Within those three years the cups for the soda fountain had been re-sized. What had been the large cup was now the small. The medium was double the size of the the small and the new large was at least triple. The thing that struck me was that all of this happened so fast and everyone thought it was perfectly normal.

[7Wannabe5]

Ego said: But look at it from a global perspective. Then again from a historic perspective.

Don't get me wrong. I absolutely believe in communal space and sharing. There is economic virtue in selfishness, but there is also economic loss in selfishness. I attempt to focus on self-aware, self-care inclusive of the recognition that I am a social being residing in a realm of limited resources.

I also strongly believe that feelings of freedom, autonomy, dominance, authority are mostly a matter of internal relationship with self, but...my perspective is informed by the fact that in my life career of frugality (or maybe just self-aware manifested curiosity about economics), I have performed various experiments such as "just doing the work in front of me" in contexts where I had no or very little ownership (authority, responsibility, equity) and there is something very primitive that comes into play that takes precedence over the social contracts we form at the level of money and deeds of ownership. We say "f*ck you" money. We say "piss on my turf." We "feel like shit" when we don't or can't take responsibility where we hold authority. We "feel like crap" when we don't or can't hold authority where we take responsibility. Shared or communal space or resources, where our role is not pre-defined, reveals our level or style of functioning. Who owns the bathroom? Who uses the bathroom? Who cleans the bathroom? Who decorates the bathroom? Who supplies the bathroom? Who fixes the bathroom? Funny but true, my last monogamous relationship dissolved in therapy where we were working on an assignment involving my SO allowing me to have authority over re-decorating the main bathroom in the house that he owned where we both resided. The therapist clearly thought this was going to be a fight about money until I presented a budget/plan that was probably at least 10X less than normal expectations. My ex didn't care about the money. He cared about the authority. I didn't care about the ownership. I cared about self-expression. Neither of us cared about privacy. We showered together almost every day.

Anyways, I know I posted this bathroom clip somewhere else, but my sister said I should watch it all the time because I am the opposite of Kash Doll and instead of "Run me my money.", I would be singing "Come take my cookies." and that is why literally almost every single day I am at the property that I legally own all by myself (for first time in my life), somebody (usually a man) walks right across the property line and starts giving me directions (offering advice) and would probably not hesitate for one little second to piss on my grass without asking permission if there was any cover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ3JDR1n7X8

The Millennials are creatures like me. They want walls because they lack spine.

[jennypenny]

This thread made me curious, so I measured my master bath ... 5' x 7' which includes the shower stall. There's also a single sink and toilet. Guess I'm behind the times.

As long as the door has a lock, I'm happy. Nothing makes me instantly constipated like having one of my kids barge in to tell me about some atrocity their sibling has just committed.

[Riggerjack]

Look, is a 200 sq ft bathroom necessary? Of course not. However, as we get older, having room for crutches, wheelchairs, walkers, and even assistance is part of the difference between living at home, and living in a facility. Part of the reason I will work until I am certain I don't need to, is that the extra will eventually be used on a private nurse, to stay home, when I need the help. With luck, the Japanese will have this worked out with robots by then.

However, the efficiency half bath just doesn't have the space for any of that, limiting you to grab bars.

Before my knee surgery, I spent 10 months limping or walking with a cane. When people tried showing sympathy, I told them I was just getting a preview. If we live long enough, we all spend time with limited mobility and pain. I used my preview to decide what I want in a bath for that time, and there's no advantage to waiting until I need it, to have it.

[Dave]

Very interesting subject. It seems to me that mainstream society continues to desire more and bigger bathrooms, but a counterculture movement is moving in the opposite direction (i.e. small houses, etc.) The people in each category are generally quite different.

This seems, as with most things, to indicate how the human experience is relative. People live in wildly varying conditions across the world, but I would be surprised if having numerous large bathrooms actually increased happiness. Of course, on the other end of the spectrum, having 10 people share a bathroom is not ideal, either. From the financial perspective, additional (and fancier) bathrooms can be quite expensive.

With all of that said, it seems this is yet another spectrum we all must place ourselves on, from numerous/luxurious/costly to fewer/smaller/cheaper. And as always, life circumstances (family, where you live, hobbies, etc.) play a big role in where you are going to fall on that spectrum.

My wife and I live in an apartment that is slightly less square footage than Riggerjack's master bath, but we also live in quite different circumstances. Is one of our way's better than the other? I wouldn't say so, just different.

[Ego]

They want walls because they lack spine.

Ahah! Why do they lack spine? Do more walls cause shrinking spines?

[Ego]

With all of that said, it seems this is yet another spectrum we all must place ourselves on, from numerous/luxurious/costly to fewer/smaller/cheaper. And as always, life circumstances (family, where you live, hobbies, etc.) play a big role in where you are going to fall on that spectrum.

My wife and I live in an apartment that is slightly less square footage than Riggerjack's master bath, but we also live in quite different circumstances. Is one of our way's better than the other? I wouldn't say so, just different.

Exactly. One of the reasons we travel is to have our perspectives recalibrated. Seeing how others live helps us to more accurately find our correct place on that spectrum and to get curious about why we believe we need certain things. I find it amazing how many of the things I once considered to be basic necessities are considered luxuries in other places. When I add the perspective of history, I find that I live better than most monarchs did.

[Ego]

If we live long enough, we all spend time with limited mobility and pain. I used my preview to decide what I want in a bath for that time, and there's no advantage to waiting until I need it, to have it.

On the other hand, how many people need a specially adapted bathroom because they gained weight dedicating all of their energy to a job in order to buy a specially adapted bathroom in their old age? (I am thinking of family members)

What if I reject the premise? What if I operate on the assumption that l will not need a specially adapted bathroom in my old age? Am I being delusional? When I look around myself here in the U.S. then the answer is yes, I am delusional.

When I zoom out and look at the whole world then the story changes. Old people are more capable out of necessity. They have no choice.

You are the average of the five people with whom you spend the most time....

[cmonkey]

We are purposely building our new bathroom a bit larger simply because we want an open feel and I would never apologize for it. Lots of floor space is nice and we are also doubling the room as washer/dryer/folding space. Counting the shower and we are about 95 sq feet. I have had small, cramped bathrooms my whole life and I'm ready for something different. Doing it all myself for less than 5K total is immensely gratifying.

Also I wouldn't consider our purpose for large size/luxury being for privacy. We put a large 3'x4' window right in front of the shower door.

Anything over 2 baths is just stupid though. Why would anyone need 3+ bathrooms? As with anything, balance is key. Everyone should have 1 or 2 baths depending on family size.

[enigmaT120]

My idea of a smaller house is 1200 sq ft, with a huge shop...

That's what I have: 1260 sq ft house, 1200 sq ft shop. Having two bathrooms is nice sometimes, but neither is very big. If I want space I can always go outside.