Too late to buy?

All the different ways of solving the shelter problem. To be static or mobile? Roots, legs, or wheels?
vexed87
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Too late to buy?

Post by vexed87 »

I have started reading The Crash Course by Chris Martenson, I knew about the principles of peak oil but didn't realise how desperate the world financial situation was in addition to that shit storm. I don't mean to be sensationalist, but I literally just went down the rabbit hole and got a suckerpunch to the gut in quick succession... I'm freaking out about how little time there seems remaining to prepare. :shock:.

There's no way I can afford to buy a house outright right now, would I be completely foolish to get a mortgage? We all know debt is terrible and houses are overpriced, but not sure how else I'm going to find the land and a home where I have the right fix it up and prepare for, what appears to be, our imminent undoing. I.e. Install rocket mass heaters, dig up lawn and replace with veg patch, raise animals etc...

I'm now going to cry myself to sleep... :roll:

cmonkey
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by cmonkey »

Let me just refer to the ERE bible (errrr, I mean book).

Emotional goals for someone aspiring to be a Renaissance man are to:...
not be subject to emotional manipulation or engage in wishful, magical thinking, believing things are true becuase he would like them to be true...
I believe I just read something to this effect a few days ago ;)

I found Chris's crash course (video series) about a year ago. I really like the work he does and I feel he is one of the most accurate analysts I have found, however, I feel he has succumbed to the emotions of it a bit lately.

Truth be told I subscribe to the beliefs of John Michael Greer. We will see some shocks within our lifetimes but full on civilization collapse is a multi-century process that has been repeated many times. That is what we are going through right now and we have reached the point where we start down the other side of the hill.

If you have not heard of JMG,I highly recommend him.

I believe that anyone who sees this coming would be wise to own land, yes. I'm not sure how I'd feel about the mortgage at this point because I feel like we are heading toward some financial issues and you wouldn't want to be stuck with a mortgage payment and no way to pay. Debts don't tend to disappear during financial resets.

My advice would be to use ERE principals to save up cash for a homestead and purchase outright in a few years. We are heading for more difficult times and owning Tier 1 wealth (land being the easiest to obtain) is the smartest move you can make. It is part of my multi-prong ERE.

10 years from now we'll probably still be discussing a lot of the same things we are now, but we will be one or two rungs down the collapsing ladder.

One last note - I started having emotional reactions just like you talk about about a year ago after discovering Chris's crash course and learning of the energy problems we are having. We had been talking of having a geothermal installation done before hand and were planning to save up the cash and pay that way. In an emotion-driven frenzy I decided to instead take out an equity loan on our home instead because I didn't think I'd be able to get the installation done after another year "because things may have collapsed". Well they didn't and I ended up paying a bit of interest for no reason. :oops: I think it was something I needed to go through and am better for it, however.

Tyler9000
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Tyler9000 »

I think it is wise to be cognizant of the risks around us and prepared for negative events. But overreacting to an "imminent" prediction more often than not harms you more than it helps. Be proactive, but not fearful.

Kriegsspiel
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Kriegsspiel »

Be wary of reading something, then implementing it immediately. For instance

- Selling all your bonds and going 100% SP500 after reading books about Buffet.
- Building up a huge cash position after reading Roth's Depression diaries.
- Buying a ton of gold after reading Schiff's books

Bogle's advice still rings true: "Don't just do something, STAND THERE!" Just sit there for a while and think about whether it makes sense or snot.

oldbeyond
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by oldbeyond »

I tend to find the collapse discourse quite convincing over the long term, but short-term predictions are always tricky. Personally, you might find IS at your doorstep next year or 30 years of business as usual, depending on how the collapse unfolds. Also, what strategy to pursue seems far from clear-cut. Will it be better to flee to the countryside or to gamble that resources will be diverted to the elite urban centers, and seek shelter there? No one knows. There's a lot you can do even without land to farm, many skills and habits to develop that could come in handy. Emotional resilience might be on top of the list ;) I think that a lot of fearful, bitter preppers would simply fall apart in the event of a real crisis(not saying that all preppers are fearful and bitter of course!). Someone unprepared, but strong-willed and courageous would probably to a lot better, even without the land, gold and guns.

Peanut
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Peanut »

Deciding to get a mortgage as a panicked reaction to reading something troubling seems foolish to me. Getting a mortgage for multiple other reasons may not be. But it doesn’t sound like you otherwise would, so the advice to sit tight and reevaluate seems good.

In the meantime consider other options. Do your parents or siblings own land? Other people’s resources can be your plan A or B if they are strongly connected to you. DH’s brother, with his several acres, guns, and medic skills is ours if we need to get out of Dodge.

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Ego
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Ego »

From a very early age we've been conditioned to comfort our fears with objects. Notice how those who are most rattled by SHTF scenarios are also those who believe their possessions will help them make the transition (transitional objects) to a post SHTF world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_object

Those who have survived true catastrophic crashes in the real world have shed most of their possessions to change, move and adapt. Those who hunker down to ride out the storm do not fare well.

A big house on fifty acres makes us feel strong precisely because it is the adult version of a teddy bear or security blanket. In the modern world there are a surprising number of things that give us that same feeling of power and invincibility but actually make us weak and vulnerable. Culturally we place a high value on this facade of feelings. In doing so we discount the value of reality.

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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by jacob »

vexed87 wrote:I have started reading The Crash Course by Chris Martenson, I knew about the principles of peak oil but didn't realise how desperate the world financial situation was in addition to that shit storm.
The bolded part means that as a first order problem (what directly affects you, e.g. a rock hitting your head) the financial situation has had no direct impact on you so far. All these "large" [strategic] issues mainly have second-order effects (e.g. an increase in the probability of falling rocks). Of course such second order effects can and will eventually probabilistically change into first order effects (see Middle East for a direct and ongoing demonstration of what happens when economic assumptions 'disagree' with political or financial assumptions---the ME economies are a lot easier to understand than the developed equivalents) but it is hard to predict when and where although it is not so hard to predict how.

Most will remain oblivious to second order effects and deal with first order effects in a tactical manner, that is, respond after the fact. This is what historically happens. It is what happens now. It is what most do.

The first step to deal with strategic issues is not to make an immediate tactical decision (e.g. buy land) but to understand the strategic issues. This way you might learn that buying land on an island that's so full of people that it strongly depends on imports in food and energy might be a worse alternative than leaving. I don't know. Owning land certainly didn't help anyone who got invaded or had it confiscated in the name of the public good.

Whereas peak oil and all the other resources shortages (clean water and biodiversity being the most dangerous ones) are "impossible" problems, financial and political problems are "unpossible" problems. An impossible problem might turn out to have a solution and it will be clear what the solution is. An unpossible problem exists in people's minds because they somehow can't let go of certain assumptions. An unpossible problem can therefore have many solutions some of which are more or less insane. It's hard to predict such things. Compare e.g. the different solutions to the credit crisis wrt Iceland and the US. Compare the government debt solution wrt Ireland and Greece. Same unpossible problem. Totally different solutions. And so on.

George the original one
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by George the original one »

If you're worried about debt, make sure you have none and are diversified in currencies. If you're worried about oil, then figure out how to live without it (or as little as possible).

Chad
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Chad »

Doomsayers have always existed. They even exist in the very best of times. We seem to have a built in capacity to fear, which, as Ego noted, causes most of us to build our home base. Historically, this seems to make us slightly less safe. The hard immovable nature of land impacts our ability to adapt, which is much more tied to mobility. I'm not suggesting no one should buy land. Just don't buy land thinking it's a good all purpose hedge against collapse.

There is a another problem with land as safety. The only land that seems to provide some form of safety during a collapse is on the fringes of that civilization. This land generally puts you at a disadvantage in that civilization 99% of the time, as anything on the fringes of a civilization is generally less valuable to that civilization and prevents you from enjoying the advantages provided by that civilization. As the British Empire collapsed, it was better to live in London and play the game than buy a bit of land in the fringes and hunker down (Obviously, if you play the current game poorly, whatever it is, then you are rather screwed no matter what happens.).

Of course, being on the fringes would probably be better than being in Rome when it gets sacked, but don't assume any form of major collapse will happen in your lifetime. It probably won't. Based on strong historical civilizations, and even on most weak ones, it takes a long time for the collapse to happen. So long, that by the time the collapse happens the people it's happening too don't really notice the event as a major one. Many times they don't even really consider it a collapse. It took centuries for the Roman Empire, and basically every other empire, to fall. Even now we can't agree on when the Roman collapse actually happened, or the British, Chinese, Incan, Egyptian, etc.
Last edited by Chad on Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

vexed87
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by vexed87 »

Some sound advice here folks, thanks. I knew that I was letting my emotions get the better of me. I'm sure there's more fear to come too, but I won't be panic buying land any time soon. Who knows when the crash will come or how it will affect me, but I'm airing on the side of extreme caution and assuming things will get rough economically speaking before I have saved a 100% down payment, if it doesn't, all the better.

I think there is a lot to be said for flexibility and not having a huge chain around my neck limiting options (i.e. mortgage during massive depression). Convincing my 'Guardian' type SO to hold off buying in case of societal collapse is going to be the real challenge! :lol:

I guess my primary fears is obvious, it is starvation, I'm pretty sure I could work with prevent dying of exposures or thirst.

I just want to avoid my own nightmare scenario of being in a position where I am 'trapped' in an urban area (or more accurately, priced out of rural areas) as the masses flee the overcrowded and powerless cities in search of work/arable land. I don't have faith that our crippled/failing government can feed a population of 70 million people in times of difficulty. I'm albeit certain we will revert to times like WWII when resources were short and the economy on it's knees. I envision a Victory Garden scenario, although this time with a lot more land pressure and mouths to feed. I'm not even sure if the UK can cope with growing that much food itself, the UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Perhaps I'll need to be ready to jump ship after all!

I have started my veg garden this weekend, classic example of shock to the system changing habits! Hopefully I'll be able to learn enough to grow my own before its too late.
Last edited by vexed87 on Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

cmonkey
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by cmonkey »

vexed87 wrote:I guess my primary fears is obvious, its starvation.
Wild food and foraging. I have picked up several books for my native region and they are invaluable. Now to make the time to put it into practice......

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Ego
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Ego »

Chad wrote:The hard immovable nature of land impacts our ability to adapt, which is much more tied to mobility. I'm not suggesting no one should buy land. Just don't buy land thinking it's a good all purpose hedge against collapse.
Well said.

Here in Turkey there are more refugees than any any other country in the world. The Syrians who got across the border early (2011) are free to build a new life and are frequently seen in the cities collecting recycling and doing odd jobs. Those who came later among the hoards (1.7 million and counting) are confined indefinitely to tent camps along the border.

The best hedge against any rapidly changing environment is to cultivate options. As you said, the hard immovable nature of land does not achieve that end. It makes one more likely to wait and see. History has shown that in a crisis wait-and-see is a terrible strategy.

cmonkey
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by cmonkey »

Owning land and sitting on it during a full on collapse scenario is definitely a proven, terrible strategy but that is assuming we actually live to see some abrupt collapse scenario (the barbarians invading, whatever). As most people are stating, we are unlikely to see that on a planetary scale, it will be more localized and fractal.

Owning land in a strategic area of an appropriate size can be of great benefit during the scenario we are most likely to witness (slow and steady collapse ; or possibly even transition to a more steady state economy). It provides you with the lowest cost of living (just property taxes, once paid for), allows you to generate a lot of your own amenities (wood for heat, food and wild foraging, solar powered water-well, etc...) and gives you a platform for future businesses that are likely to be in demand (farming, woodworking, livestock raising, blacksmithing ; basically any hands-on trade).

I am inclined to think the UK is not the best region as jacob stated, simply because it is a smallish island with many people and not many resources left.

Chad
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Chad »

Here is a fortuitous article on older doomsday predictions:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/01/us/th ... .html?_r=0

This prediction was 47 years ago, but never happened and may or may not ever happen. Of course, this doesn't mean the forces the person used to forecast the doom aren't important or don't impact the civilization. It just means that calling for the end of a civilization is quite common and wrong more often than not. This is especially true for any timeline given in the prediction.

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Sclass
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Sclass »

I like Egos comment about those who flee. Also the Syrian anecdote is good.

I knew a lot of older folks growing up who were children of the Holocaust and Stalin's Great Purge. They had a lot of stories of rich families who just stubbornly stayed in their estates because they loved their paintings, homes and trinkets. The longer people seemed to stay the more they lost.

Who knows if peak oil will bring sudden chaos or gradually increasing stress (rising prices). If rising housing costs are rising, buying a home is a good thing...even if you use a loan. But then there's the kink of floating rates.

In my neighborhood in the Bay Area housing has increased at an average of 6% a year during the two decades I've lived here. Salaries have not for me. For my neighbors, yes, but not for me. So I'm evicting myself to go to a nicer cheaper place. I'm hoping peak oil will be a gradual increase is commodity prices that forces people to adapt slowly rather than an abrupt chaotic change. Kind of like when the gas price went from $1.50 to $3.00 a few years ago my neighbor parked her SUV...and didn't break into my home and drag off my biodiesel refinery (nonsense her SUV was gas). She did in reality sell the Expedition and get a Jetta TDI. Gradual adaptation. Maybe she will let her lawn go yellow one of these days in light of our drought.

I wonder how long things can remain chaotic? People seem to want order. It is more efficient and things have always progressed that way with sporadic events of chaos. Tiny city states eventually get absorbed into great empires. Even these dysutopian movies that are popular today (Hunting Games and Divergence) show order over chaos. I need to whip out my history books and see if this is really what happens.

I guess even temporary chaos ruined everything for my family friends who told the WW2 stories.

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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by jacob »

Sclass wrote:Who knows if peak oil will bring sudden chaos or gradually increasing stress (rising prices).
I knows.

Fundamentally, all transportation/information/flow systems exhibit high volatility in all dimensions when they are strained to their limit,... because science. How other systems are affected by this volatility depends on whether they're fragile, robust, resilient, or anti-fragile and how strained these other systems are. And so on. Watch out for rare cascades.

A lot of what's going on in the energy universe now and over the past two decades was predicted well in advance, subsequently ignored, and afterwards explained to the public as "nobody could have known"---as are most other complex crises. This collectively induced ignorance is also what leads to the Cassandra Complex in anyone with an analytical bent.

The peak in conventional oil (easy and cheap to get, think very profitable) was predicted to occur sometime in the early 2000s back in the late 1990s. (It actually occured in 2005) leading to oil wars as predicted in 2002. Subsequentially, Iraq was invaded because it had the second largest reserve in the world. Saudi Arabia, the primary ally in the ME, has the most. At the time Iraq was also planning to start trading oil in Euro having several ties with European companies. Naturally, then, the EU opposed the invasion. The US went ahead, to secure control of the oil and keep the trade in dollars. As predicted---because Iraq was and is highly sectarian and thus fragile, not robust like say Germany in WWII (pull up a map showing how the various factions of Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds, etc.)---invading Iraq immediately disintegrated instead of conquering it as expected.

Meanwhile the world economies were recovering from the tech bubble (and replacing it with a housing bubble ... also predicted a few years in advace ... predictions which were subsequently and concurrently dismissed in the usual manner: nobody knows, nobody could have known, etc.) thus increasing demand on the energy economy. As conventional oil turned out to actually peak in 2005, the price became high and volatile. Lobbyists managed to sell [to politicians] the seriously dumb idea of ethanol fuel because ... hey .. subsidies. This caused a worldwide shortage in corn (a spill-over; interesting systems theoretic construct). In robust countries like the US, food prices went up from 10% to 10-something percent. In fragile countries, like Mexico, they had street riots. People who can't afford food get really cranky. People who can well afford food might just slaughter some cattle (a highly inefficient source of protein) and use that as a buffer. Same idea as when US ranchers slaughtered cattle in 2012 because of droughts sending feed prices up too high. Did any first world iPhone users notice that? Probably not. Again, analysts looked at the fraction of the budgets going to food in various countries. In the Egypt, people spent 40% of their budget of food so it doesn't take much of a bump to start a riot or a revolution (10% -> 15% is inconvenient, 40% -> 60% is impossible)---this was pointed out in one of the GMO newsletters. Lo and behold! Several fragile countries subsequently disintegrate for various reasons: Egypt, Libya, Syria.

Meanwhile, overly cheap credit made available in the US for reasons that are equally well known/ignored also made its way into US tight oil. Unlike conventional oil which peaked in 2005, tight oil is not very profitable at all and only becomes so by massive leverage. Which was now available. From an energy perspective, tight oil uses up a lot of resources because its energy margin is so low. These resources come from the rest of the economy which therefore does poorly. This is why petroleum engineers are^H^H^Hwere making a killing while other graduates are still waiting tables. SA notices it can't compete with the credit subsidy in the long run (it needs oil money to pay off its population from rioting). It also knows how tight the margin is. So a price war is started. Again, this fragility created by the Tragedy of the Commons was predicted around 2012-13 but again ignored. The US economy as a whole is robust ... people initially welcome the drop in oil price but those engineers are of course fragile and get laid off. What is good for the country ain't necessarily good for the individual states where they used to work.

Another thing that was predicted in the 1990s was the steep decline in North Sea gas thus increasing the dependency of Europe on ... Russia! Most things going on in the Ukraine, Syria, IS, ... has to do with where to route the gas pipelines and who profits from it. Currently, gas goes from Russia to Europe via Ukraine. That is not profitable for the US! Nor does Europe like to have the shut-off valve be controlled by Russian politics. Now pull up a map of Eurasian gas pipelines (present and planned) and it becomes rather transparent what's going on. First Russia tried to secure a line by annexing Crimea but since Russia was blocked in the Ukraine by a change in power (now where did that come from?) they'd like to go through Greece. Conversely, the West would like Russia to be blocked as much as possible and instead to go from Qatar to Turkey and then onto Europe, but to do that they'd have to go through Syria which Syria (an ally of Russia) opposed (go figure). So Syria must go. Easy. Simply supply arms to the rebels. The arms industry is highly antifragile and its politicians are as well because chaos equals opportunity. Hence this was an easy sell.

And so now we have the current situation. (And I didn't even cover Afghanistan). As more or less predicted anywhere between 1-2 and 10 years in advance depending on the complexity and flexibility of the systems and their interrelations.

A couple of years would be plenty of time for a nimble person or family to get out of the way of "history" before it gets written.

But despite this information being publicly available, nobody cares ... because shirt team-colors and easy explanations are so much more fun, so there's that. Or maybe sportsball on TV is just more exciting? Or maybe I just need to find a better hobby?

Getting back to the OP, the key is identify which systems (pf, food, region, land, vocation, ...) you're personally part of and whether those systems are robust, fragile, antifragile, or resilient. Step two is to identify what systems your systems connect to. E.g. if you're fragile and you're connected to a fragile system, you have a real problem. Whereas if you're robust and connected to a fragile system, it's not a big deal unless the fragile system is also connected to an anti-fragile system thus guaranteeing that you'll be taking slow damage.

In terms of a collapse: ... Yes, you're watching the civilizational collapse at the edge interfaces (think permacultue --- all the "interesting" stuff happens at the edge interfaces... stuff that's interesting enough to be lethal too) of the current empires proceeding more or less as predicted as a result of the predicted decline in conventional oil given the nondiscovery of adequate substitutes. IOW at this point in time: local destruction driving by a global shortage. But it doesn't look like that from here (in the middle of a robust core of the empire) because if you're reading this you can still buy the latest iPhone for only $499 and isn't that the very definition of progress ;-)

So with that perspective, should one have bought land?

Well, that certainly depends on where that land was bought and who bought it!

PS: I only described energy here. Similar things are going on in other systems for other reasons, but some are connected.

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Sclass
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by Sclass »

Good to know.

Edit- against my better judgment I'll say that there were a lot of predictions made regarding energy that were wrong and just a few right. What looks obvious now about oil supply or the credit crisis was not so apparent before the present.

I worked at Shell USA calculating proven reserves back in 1990. We were in the middle of a glut and we had paid way too much $30 for oil in place (Midway Sunset and N. Belrdige) and oil was dropping into the teens. It was like a bad joke "a reservoir engineer, a geologist and an accountant were sitting in a room...,"

First, we were soon to become worse than waiters. We all went back to school the next quarter. Second, the only thing I learned about "calculating" reserves is the people who discuss this data online have no concept of the uncertainty bars. Seriously, it's laughable how much credibility people give these numbers without having a clue as to how much of a wild guess they are.

I worked calculating reserves in situ. Producibility is a whole other can of worms with even more wild guesses. My models alone would have uncertainties as high as 100%. I didn't tell my boss that but hey, there are only so many exploratory wells (real data points) and the seismics weren't as good back then. Then you get the PE who spent our budget on CRAY time trying to figure out just how accessible that oil was. Around the time I left this science (the bad joke cast) became the field of ...(gong) "Geo Statistics". Because in reality nobody really knew what was down there. They found out they could do better with stochastic models constrained by sparse well data.

Gwar is a little different. The rock facies and structure are simple. There are a lot of fully logged wells. Little faulting(the bugaboo for reservoir modelers). I think the uncertainty there is lower than Souther San Joaquin.

Shell divested from Southern San Joaquin shortly after I left. "The Geologist, Res Engineer and Paleontologist fled and the accountant was left holding a backpack without a parachute inside it. He reinvented his career at ENRON."

Be careful of what you read at Bloomberg, Drum. What's alarming to me isn't the inability to make predictions when all the data was there (just look at how well Wall St. Does this). It's the accountants and analysts who don't know where the technical data comes from yet base their "intelligence" on this.

steveo73
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by steveo73 »

Some good points from Sclass. My take is the world is not ending any time soon and in fact is getting better and better for human beings as a whole.

I also think that is why ERE or frugality works really well. Most people will be completely safe and happy spending money hand over foot. We can save money and work less. To me its a sweet deal.

chenda
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Re: Too late to buy?

Post by chenda »

Just to give some perspective, our ancestors had it much, much worse than we are ever likely to:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Gla ... um#/search

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

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