ERE City (US)

All the different ways of solving the shelter problem. To be static or mobile? Roots, legs, or wheels?
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JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

This could effectively be done with GIS... You'd end up with a list of areas. Query:

areas (zip code perhaps) over X precip OR

within X meters of body of water over X area AND

within X meters of forest min X area AND
Proximity to towns of certain size and airports, universities, public land over X area are all easy to add. Anything relating to census also easy.
I've been collecting national coverages for many of these, but really wish I could find some data (GIS or tabular) for:

*soil fertility and/or land productivity

*mean property tax

*climate comfort index

*some useful and reliable type of political data. R vs D, is not practical... Likely too complex and subjective. But perhaps an index, or score via some think tank who's ideas you agree with.
I wish I could get a batch download of city-data's tables!.. I think I'll run some preliminary queries when I get a chance. Thoughts and/or ideas?


Andre900
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Post by Andre900 »

Condo. Never again. For a short time, I served as the unpaid & unappreciated Treasurer for the condo association at a townhouse I once owned. The monthly dues are only going in one direction. If the special assessments don't kill you, then your crazy and difficult neighbors might. Many people are not cut out for condo living; they'd be much happier if they avoided it.


Maus
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Post by Maus »

WRT condos. I agree with the "Never" party. Cooperatives are a better option. The individual owns a share in the corporation and is entitled to lease a unit. All expenses are the responsiblility of the corportation, which then charges a periodic per-unit leasing fee. If reserves are kept to a minimum, then the fee rate of increase is contained. Every shareholder votes on maintenance/upgrade issues, and the articles of organization can specify a supermajority vote. You essentially eliminate the profit motive of the rental scheme and achieve some of the stability of the ownership scheme.
Some thougths on the various cities so far:

I've lived in SLC. It is a very affordable big city quite close to natural splendor. The winters are not as problematic as East Coast storms. Cheaper housing and land is available within less than a hundred mile radius, but outside SLC anyone who is non-Mormom will find that living behind the Zion Curtain can be challenging. It will be abundantly clear that you are in a distinct minority.
I've lived in a small (10K) town in northern California. There were very few college-educated folks and attitudes could be quite parochial. Neighbors might be willing to help you grow a better garden, but they won't care to discuss peak oil with you. Entertainment seems to center on drinking a lot and occasional events like monster truck ralleys, drag boat racing, rodeos, etc. In some respects, a critical mass of EREistas would alleviate the undertone of alienation I experienced as a lone wolf.
I've lived in Phoenix, AZ. Post peak oil there won't be enough energy for A/C, and even a dry heat is hellish when it's 116 in the shade. Plus, water will be at a premium. Jacob has the right idea. It's the small, New England towns that have the pre-industrial layout that will enhance liveability in a peak-oil compromised future. Most similarly-sized small places in the West were boom-and-bust mining towns and liveability was never a consideration at their origin or during their evolution.
It is starting to seem as if the ideal solution is a north to south seasonal migration. Summer in NH, sail the ICW down to FL or SC for winter. Return to NH in spring. This might be tough to do on <$250K unless a group of EREistas pooled to buy the boat(s) and perhaps shared the housing (renting it in off season). To maximize efficiency, the live aboard duty on the boat could rotate through the group.


jacob
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Post by jacob »

Maybe we should make the intracoastal waterway an ERE corridor? (It makes geopolitical sense.)
I do get the strong impression that some here want North and some want South(!). I'd certainly be open to setting up the "Fisker Hotel" in the North for snowbirding EREs during the summer.
We might even be able to set up counterparty snowbirding deals where two people switch homes every equinox and one gets the cheaper bad weather deal and one gets the more expensive good weather deal.


Hoplite
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Post by Hoplite »

Another consideration for choice of state is asset protection (I believe this was discussed in another thread). NH provides some of the best state protections for retirement accounts; New Hampshire Code § 511:2 XIX. Echoing Maus, this is NOT LEGAL ADVICE!
State protections of non-401k retirement accounts, as well as the availability of a homestead exemption (I believe NH is $30000 but that may be double for a married couple) are important considerations for long-term retirement.


Hoplite
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Post by Hoplite »

For cooperative ownership, the devil is in the details. Many coops (corporations) require a personal guaranty of a share of the maintenance and cost, which can include building financing and property taxes (the tax collector and the lender may insist); so you may not be able to walk away from a death spiral. And coop residents and boards are no better than the condo type. In NYC, the coop form is by far the most common, but still doesn't prevent internecine warfare and self-dealing.


dragoncar
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Post by dragoncar »

Won't the southwest be rich in solar energy after peak oil?


jeremymday
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Post by jeremymday »

@ dragon - Im placing my bets on hydro electric and geothermal.
I haven't done all the tax research, but I would want to be somewhere between Raleigh, NC and Bangor, ME.
Im also biased towards Pittsburgh, PA because I have family there, but it also has...
1. Major waterways which barges can pass through.

2. Loads of coal and natural gas.

3. Lots of entertainment and culture. (3 major sports teams, countless theatres, museums, and libraries.)

4. Great universities

5. Low Cost of Living, especially if you move to a smaller town outside of Allegheny county.

6. Lots of green forests, lakes, rivers, streams, and very arable farm land everywhere you go.

7. Great access to the mountains for hiking, biking, skiing, etc.
We all have different criteria, but thats what I want.
I also want to build a house mostly underground and heated/cooled with geothermal energy.
Need to start energy discussion thread... again... ;-)
Jeremy


jacob
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Post by jacob »

@dragoncar - It's practically impossible to run compression A/C on solar.
I think the main issue would be in terms of getting around w/o cars and bringing in food (lack of transportation) given the local water shortage.


JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

Hey, wait! I'm having one of those things. You know, a headache with pictures... aka: an idea.
I wonder if we could setup a GoogleDoc with city names. Then use the "importhtml" command to extract info and auto-populate stats. Details of importhtml:

https://docs.google.com/support/bin/ans ... swer=75507
It's how I get gold quotes in my GDoc P.Portfolio spreadsheet.

=Index(ImportHTML("http://apmex.com/","table",7),2,2)
I made a very rough draft, hoping for input from HTML wizards. For it to be feasible the column D needs to populate with the city state from columns A and B:

ERE Cities (US) GoogleDoc

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... c&hl=en_US


dragoncar
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Post by dragoncar »

I don't know, this place (http://www.solarac.com/index.html) seems to sell $10k panels (before incentives, 2.4kW peak) that will run a 2 ton AC. That's like $33/mo, but who knows about quality/repairs.
Moreover, I meant that the utilities would power the grid with (relatively) cheap solar power, which would be available locally. Once it's on the grid, your AC unit doesn't really care where the power came from.
Likewise, your electric car's battery won't care. And a state full of electric vehicles tied to the grid could act as a buffer/energy store for the night/day swings.
Water is a different story. Maybe some windtraps?


chilly
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Post by chilly »

To add to what @Hoplite mentioned about the NH homestead exemption... it's important to note that it appears to be solely income based, and not age dependent(a good thing... unlike CT and other states).
http://www.nh.gov/revenue/forms/low_mod_program.htm
A scanned through quick and if I'm running the numbers in my head right, it looks like it's a sliding scale tax refund for up to $100k of home valuation. Going from 100% at 0 AGI to 0% at $20k. 60% under $15k... that's a nice price point.
Also, a few have mentioned SLC. I'd offer that Ogden is substantially cheaper. Not as many jobs, and a bit higher crime, but still very walkable in many areas. We could take over a city block of $70k houses.


anastrophe
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Post by anastrophe »

@JohnnyH:

I've been collecting national coverages for many of these, but really wish I could find some data...
You will probably need to use proxy measures for some of these, although land cover data from USGS may be helpful.
Mapping ERE-friendly areas is actually a project I've had in mind for awhile. I have ArcGIS 9.x experience and access to a lot of data through my university. But I'm a little overwhelmed thinking of the different variables and datasets needed...


jacob
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Post by jacob »

Newmarket, NH is just south (within biking or skiing 8-)range) of Durham, NH.
While Durham, NH fills pretty much all the criteria (college town, rail road, walkable, public commuting to a major city (Boston), it fails on the $$$ of the real estate. If you want to own in Durham on an ERE budget, there's currently very little/no choice. The prices are high ($200+) and this translates into high RE taxes.
Without ever having visited the place, I've poured over maps for the past several days and now know more about the relative location of the respective cities than the sf bay area ;-P
My general observations are that the coastal NH cities are generally too expensive with the exception of Seabrook---I don't mind the nukes, but it's a salt march; from the sky it looks like a chemical plant...kinda like the refineries in Vallejo, CA.
If you go 10-20 miles inland, there are places like Newmarket or maybe Exeter (other direction); essentially satellite cities to bigger cities like Durham. You need to go that far in to find something that's not expensive. Closer to the coast seems dominated by rick folks and mansions (without the Mc). If we go further over, leaving the coast, there's Manchester, where housing is cheap (on ERE standards) and Keene (ditto). We almost sold ourselves on Keene. The problem here (and with Manchester too) is that specialized jobs (for those who work) may be hard to come by. In that regard, I think doable access to Boston is important.
Back to Newmarket. It's an old mill/river town and it has water access---you could take off in your boat and sail to Spain from here. Looks great from a peak oil/climate change perspective. Durham is close and on the other side of the bay you have Portsmouth. The commute to Boston would be a killer---it looks like a 15 minute bike ride to Durham and then the 90 minute train ride down. Or maybe an hour down by car. However, it's a possibility.
Given this my vote for New Hampshire cities thus fall on Durham, which has received some support above (Look I'm comprising with the contingent who feels the need to live next to a large amount of 18 year-olds :-D ), although I'm going to find a place in Newmarket. This is close enough. We don't all have to be on the same street.
Now onto the challenge of getting over there and checking it out in person ...


Hoplite
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Post by Hoplite »

@Jacob,

On specialty employment, Boston itself is geographically small and congested, and many of the tech and specialty jobs have migrated outside the city, particularly to towns along the Rte. 128 beltway, like Burlington (Sun Micro for example)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington,_Massachusetts.

In other words, a car may be a necessity depending on the job, regardless of access to Boston proper. On the plus side, leaving the coast could be an easier commute.


JohnnyH
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Post by JohnnyH »

Durham and Newmarket look utterly pleasant, and ideal... but ouch:

Durham

Median real estate property taxes paid for housing units with mortgages in 2009: $6,937 (2.1%)

Median real estate property taxes paid for housing units with no mortgage in 2009: $6,654 (2.3%)

Jan. 2011 cost of living index in Durham: 137.3 (high, U.S. average is 100)
Newmarket

Median real estate property taxes paid for housing units with mortgages in 2009: $4,719 (2.0%)

Median real estate property taxes paid for housing units with no mortgage in 2009: $3,478 (1.7%)

Jan. 2011 cost of living index in Newmarket: 134.0 (high, U.S. average is 100)


chilly
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Post by chilly »

My radar says $$$ too or Durham & Newmarket... just for the RE - I didn't even check taxes. Did you find some specific properties listed that peaked your interest? The only thing south of $125k I found were mobile homes - in parks... note 0 acres... it seems that NH Realtors have little moral difficulty neglecting to check off the 'mobile home' checkbox on the listing. Yay for them.


jacob
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Post by jacob »

http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/price;a_ ... market,NH/
I think picking areas based on cost of living can be deceptive. In many cases, prices are high because people like to live there. Then when they build their huge houses and start consuming, the spending lifts the indexes. I bet if we found an area at, say, 70%, it might just be a straight road with an old gas station on it and nothing but dust and wind. Just guessing ...
To compare the COL is 131, where we live, so I know I/ERE can handle these levels.
Something else, I'm trying to decide for this project is whether we should support people's ability to find jobs pre-ERE or not. The existence of well-paid work in an area will always drive prices up. If we ignore this segment (probably the majority of ERErs), we can find something cheaper. The argument for ignoring it is that most people are probably more attached to their current job/where they get their next job offer than the potential of having ERE-friendly neighbors.


chilly
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Post by chilly »

@Jacob, everything on that trulia page is a mobile home (on park, w/rent) or a condo.
Try this:

http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/price;a_ ... _HOME_type
Now compare it to this for laughs:

http://www.trulia.com/for_sale/Rocheste ... ice;a_sort
Those are decent, sub $50k, single family homes with yards. That's cheap, and within walking distance to Lake Ontario.
Keene, NH falls somewhere in the middle fwict.
I think you're assessment about cost vs. work is accurate. As they always say - you can't get something for nothing. There are reasons that costs are low in places where they are low... you just have to find the nicest place you're willing to pay for with the reason you're most willing to live with.


Maus
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Post by Maus »

@Jacob

I wrestled with this pre-ERE job base conundrum as well. OTOH I won't need one, so it's not an immediate concern. OTOH I don't want to create an elitist enclave that won't benefit from the influx of newly begun EREistas. Moreover, a good job base operates to ensure a certain level of good infrastructure and services.
I also tend to agree with @chilly re $$$ of RE. I checked a couple of Newmarket real estate sites for <$100K and saw predominately condos (no thank you) and mobile homes (going to be hard to heat in winter) or unbuilt lots. The latter might be fine, but it is a bit worrying when the town government touts the fact that it has Planning and Zoning Departments and a Master Plan in place. That does not bode well for building new <800 square foot dwellings.
I did see one colonial with six fireplaces and 3BR that include two fully modernized studio apartments on the ground floor. It was listed for about $500K. Now that might become the basis for a cooperative housing arrangement that could accomodate 5 shareholders at $100K each.


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