Read this recently and it seemed interesting.
Not quite sure how true/relevant it is..
Changes the implementation of ERE of the future?
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/j ... lism-begun
The end of capitalism has begun?
-
George the original one
- Posts: 5406
- Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
- Location: Wettest corner of Orygun
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
I can't see fringe economics as the replacement of capitalism because there are ambitious people who want more. You would need a revolution to eliminate the ambitious.
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
I prefer Yanis Varoufakis (previous Greek finance minister) version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihVcrnFag1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKaPeWoS7PQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Zpkz7lK-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szIGZVrSAyc (watching this one tonight)
sorry, forget which is the best one..
Definitely poignant now with brexit (remember Greece?) and the democratic voting.
i.e. Capitalism is _clearly_ over (at least the version I thought I grew up with), at least since 2008. The most failed corporations received the largest share of social wealth in history and loans going to entities already deeply in debt with no possibility to pay back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihVcrnFag1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKaPeWoS7PQ, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2Zpkz7lK-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szIGZVrSAyc (watching this one tonight)
sorry, forget which is the best one..
Definitely poignant now with brexit (remember Greece?) and the democratic voting.
i.e. Capitalism is _clearly_ over (at least the version I thought I grew up with), at least since 2008. The most failed corporations received the largest share of social wealth in history and loans going to entities already deeply in debt with no possibility to pay back.
Last edited by bryan on Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
brute posits that there never was that "golden time of capitalism". capitalism is an abstract description of a messy real world system. there's always been uncapitalistic things, circumstances, actions. the definition is also subjective. brute would posit that intellectual property is anti-capitalist, because it rewards those who already have capital with rules limiting competition. many people find bailouts uncapitalistic. what about tariffs? minimum wage? rent control?
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
@brute, I added a late edit to clarify that 2008 was some sort of inflection point, at least. It reminds us of another major point in 1971, the Nixon shock, I think.
Some think in a post-capitalist world will give us more applications of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem.
Some think in a post-capitalist world will give us more applications of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem.
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
so if Capitalism is gone post 2008, but existed pre 2008, is Capitalism defined as the most failed corporations not receiving the largest (or large) shares of social wealth? and loans going to entities that are more credit worthy?
brute isn't arguing that 2008 wasn't a change, but that it was hardly a defining point for Capitalism as brute would define it.
maybe definitions are in order. brute defines Capitalism roughly such:
"an economic system in which many/most transactions are coordinated by a free-market price system". as opposed to e.g. socialism, "an economic system in which many/most transactions are coordinated by soviets/stalin/whatever each version of socialism uses".
of course there's always the degree to which a system can be described as socialist or capitalist. arguably, rent control and minimum wage laws are socialist, as is the military or public health care.
brute assumes everybody has learned the lesson from history that approaching a 100% planned economy leads to poverty and starvation. what's unclear, in brute's mind, is if 100% free-market pricing of everything would be great, or if the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. a lot of humans brute argues (fights, really) with claim that both too much socialism and too much capitalism are equally evil. interestingly, though, the most capitalist example these humans can cite is the US itself, which brute finds not that capitalist - like it or not, the government plays a huge role in the US economy. so brute isn't convinced that more capitalism might not be great.
on the other hand, brute hates social planning and forcing shit (including economic systems) on humans, so any experiment in more capitalism would have to start small and be opt-in. city states like singapore and hong kong are examples.
what is bryan's definition of capitalism?
brute isn't arguing that 2008 wasn't a change, but that it was hardly a defining point for Capitalism as brute would define it.
maybe definitions are in order. brute defines Capitalism roughly such:
"an economic system in which many/most transactions are coordinated by a free-market price system". as opposed to e.g. socialism, "an economic system in which many/most transactions are coordinated by soviets/stalin/whatever each version of socialism uses".
of course there's always the degree to which a system can be described as socialist or capitalist. arguably, rent control and minimum wage laws are socialist, as is the military or public health care.
brute assumes everybody has learned the lesson from history that approaching a 100% planned economy leads to poverty and starvation. what's unclear, in brute's mind, is if 100% free-market pricing of everything would be great, or if the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. a lot of humans brute argues (fights, really) with claim that both too much socialism and too much capitalism are equally evil. interestingly, though, the most capitalist example these humans can cite is the US itself, which brute finds not that capitalist - like it or not, the government plays a huge role in the US economy. so brute isn't convinced that more capitalism might not be great.
on the other hand, brute hates social planning and forcing shit (including economic systems) on humans, so any experiment in more capitalism would have to start small and be opt-in. city states like singapore and hong kong are examples.
what is bryan's definition of capitalism?
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
The answer is "no". This is a very myopic and Western-centric article, as it acts as if the places where most people live do not exist. But I understand that his audience is the left in the UK and so he is pandering to it.
In the rest of the world, capitalism is breaking out all over in places like Vietnam, Nigeria, Thailand and even Myanmar. In terms of the article, China has already advanced the equivalent of about 300 years in technology in one generation. The latest and greatest thing in Lagos are self-help gurus on the business side, like the Zig Ziglars of the US past. Once the rest of the world gets online, many innovations are likely to come from developing world, in particular as they become consumers. The Indian idea of Jugaad is an important one. See http://jugaadinnovation.com/buy-the-boo ... aad-video/
I think the author is correct that there is likely to be "more government" in the near future in Western societies. For example, places like Cornwall, which overwhelming voted "Leave", are already looking to London to make up for the EU subsidies they will be losing.
The archaeologist/historian Ian Morris theorizes that the normal GINI coefficient for modern techno societies ranges from 0.25 to 0.35 and tends to swing back like a pendulum when there is too much or too little inequality. Generational theory also suggests that "community" values are likely to be more important that "liberty" values in the next couple decades. But this is not some kind of seismic shift, just the ordinary course of historical cycles.
In the rest of the world, capitalism is breaking out all over in places like Vietnam, Nigeria, Thailand and even Myanmar. In terms of the article, China has already advanced the equivalent of about 300 years in technology in one generation. The latest and greatest thing in Lagos are self-help gurus on the business side, like the Zig Ziglars of the US past. Once the rest of the world gets online, many innovations are likely to come from developing world, in particular as they become consumers. The Indian idea of Jugaad is an important one. See http://jugaadinnovation.com/buy-the-boo ... aad-video/
I think the author is correct that there is likely to be "more government" in the near future in Western societies. For example, places like Cornwall, which overwhelming voted "Leave", are already looking to London to make up for the EU subsidies they will be losing.
The archaeologist/historian Ian Morris theorizes that the normal GINI coefficient for modern techno societies ranges from 0.25 to 0.35 and tends to swing back like a pendulum when there is too much or too little inequality. Generational theory also suggests that "community" values are likely to be more important that "liberty" values in the next couple decades. But this is not some kind of seismic shift, just the ordinary course of historical cycles.
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
@BRUTE, I was trying to clarify (back-pedal) that when I was mentioning capitalism it was more along the lines of t0 being what people thought we had in the US before the crash in 08 and t1 being the system apparent with the bailouts. The time between being the "end as we knew it." An evolution (or awakening if you feel like being generous), since people still call it Capitalism now (and some people are naive and say it is simply corporatism... wat?).
It was at least the case with me as I was pretty young in '08 and probably thought it really was at least close enough to Capitalism to let private corporations fail? I can't remember exactly (other than knowing I really did call my senator to be sure he voted against TARP).
Interestingly, thus Bitcoin was born/marketed with the first block making a political statement: "Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks". (pretty serendipitous timing).
Some nice, contemporary musings, I'm sure most here are familiar with:
slatestarcodex
overcomingbias
It was at least the case with me as I was pretty young in '08 and probably thought it really was at least close enough to Capitalism to let private corporations fail? I can't remember exactly (other than knowing I really did call my senator to be sure he voted against TARP).
Interestingly, thus Bitcoin was born/marketed with the first block making a political statement: "Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks". (pretty serendipitous timing).
Some nice, contemporary musings, I'm sure most here are familiar with:
slatestarcodex
overcomingbias
Re: The end of capitalism has begun?
sure, the economy changed in 2008. some pretty strange precedence was set. but the end of capitalism? Dragline is right. in Vietnam, you can see the hammer & sickle flags hanging off of the bitexco tower and BoA buildings next to KFC. they love capitalism.