The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

[Ego]

The "ego" is one such virus/meme that infects pretty much everyone. (Zen Buddhists try very hard to purge this particular virus.)

I'm terrible with subtlety so if you are trying to say something you should just say it.

Nurf guns it is.

[jacob]

Ha! No slight insult intended. It's only that the idea of the "self" is the most universally held human-theme I can think of. I've yet to meet or hear of a human who thinks they're just a bunch of particles no different from the chair they're sitting on.

[BRUTE]

Ha! No slight insult intended. It's only that the idea of the "self" is the most universally held human-theme I can think of. I've yet to meet or hear of a human who thinks they're just a bunch of particles no different from the chair they're sitting on.

that the particles are no different is indisputable. brute believes the point of contention is the configuration of the particles.

also, jacob already lost this debate. free will doesn't exist in any meaningful way.

[jacob]

@brute - Actually, none of you guys really exist. It's just me being ERE and writing everyone's posts carrying on a conversation with myself all day long

[Dragline]

@brute - Actually, none of you guys really exist. It's just me being ERE and writing everyone's posts carrying on a conversation with myself all day long

Yes, this was my conclusion after meeting you in person. You and I are the only ones in this room.

To credit anyone else with existence would be a mere act of blind faith.

Now, Frank -- that's as real as it gets.

[JasonR]

o

[7Wannabe5]

I think there are at least two different voices that need to be considered in this dialogue. A person who lives "rich" and can well afford it and is happy, and a person who lives "simple" and can't afford to live "rich" and is happy. Compare and contrast with IlliniDave's experience with friend calling him "lucky", I recently had a man who is happy with his career (asked him "Why?" and he said because he is now top dog) and affluent life-style tell me that he understands that I am "choosing to live like a Native American." and I was the one who silently added "Yet, I am allowing you to pick up the bill for dinner at this very nice restaurant." -lol. So, am I more "lucky" than IlliniDave ? or was it all my years of clever, disciplined avoidance of burpees that earned me a free bowl of Hiu Tieu AND the relaxed lifestyle of the idealized original human inhabitants of the North American continent?

[BRUTE]

brute believes that accumulating social and sexual capital is, if understudied by economists, as valid a strategy to ERE as any other. one could equate 7wannabe5's natural sexual capital with someone else's work ethic/natural inclination to practice a valuable skill.

[7Wannabe5]

I think it's more like having some constantly declining in value vacation property you inherited to take into account in your planning. Like, is it worth the hassle of tidying up the old cottage and putting on a new roof in order to get a renter this year? It hurts my brain when I read something like what Taleb said about you should always choose to rent rather than buy things you want to fly, float or f..., because it is hard to be a rational actor and an object at the same time. But, the rule of thumb is that if you do the work that people who have money want you to do then money will naturally flow in your direction. Sometimes people with money want you to develop a piece of software, and sometimes they want you to color your hair yellow and straighten it down your back. I think I am luckier than IlliniDave because I could make either choice, but probably nobody with money wants to see him with long yellow hair.

[BRUTE]

brute has only heard the version "if you want to drive it, fly it, ride it, sleep in, on, or with it, rent it"

[JamesR]

@Ego,

If anything, there's nothing about neural wiring that is deterministic, it's going to be more stochastic, the gradual result of many different probabilities occurring over time.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: Same difference. The first question might be is this true on face value, but the essential puzzle, from my perspective, is whether it is more in alignment with rational self-interest to choose to make contract or engage in trade with other rational actors vs. more irrational actors? And, I believe the answer to this question is relevant in much wider context, obvious example being person-to-person lending. Are you better off lending money to a spendaholic with a poor credit rating who is willing to pay 24% interest or somebody giving more sober consideration to a conservative opportunity to leverage who is only willing to pay 5%? Am I better off dating a man who is texting me pictures of his various status symbols every 3 weeks and is obviously is some state of mad limerence, or a man who calmly informs me that he decided he was going to ask me out a second time when he observed my appearance walking ahead of him into the restaurant? In any case, I think it is kind of mean to poke fun at the person or people from whose weakness you are currently making profit. Obviously, pimps and money-lenders have more power than johns, gamblers,wage-slaves or prostitutes, but it's not nice to brag, and it's not very self-aware to think you are better.

[BRUTE]

I think it is kind of mean to poke fun at the person or people from whose weakness you are currently making profit. Obviously, pimps and money-lenders have more power than johns, gamblers,wage-slaves or prostitutes, but it's not nice to brag, and it's not very self-aware to think you are better.

in all voluntary exchanges (and debatably in involuntary ones), both parties are making profits, and thereby exploiting the weakness of the other party. nobody would perform any type of trade if they didn't have a desire (=weakness) they felt the need to improve upon.

brute cannot comment on the poking of fun or the bragging.

[7Wannabe5]

ffj said: That anecdote only works if you actually did pick up the tab. Did you? Or did you keep the illusion of a being a poor Native American? If you didn't pay the bill, who do you think ultimately came out ahead on that exchange?

Well, the main point I was trying to make with the anecdote was that my much more affluent date communicated that he recognized that I had or was making a choice. He wasn't placing me in the role of victim of sad circumstances ripe for the rescue. So, he was also communicating respect for my free agent adult status. I have examined the whether or not to allow a man to pick up the tab issue seven ways to Sunday, and my current take is that it is inconsiderate if I insist on only skills, services and barter in trade. Also, I only allow a man to buy me dinner if I find him otherwise attractive, or if he clearly would benefit from having a kind face to vent angst about his job and/or divorce at. The second I also consider to be a bit of a public service, because often not worth the price even if I order dessert. As for the specific instance I was referring to, I did find him otherwise attractive, and he was the one who purposefully turned off my switch and put me back in my package at the end of the evening, and he has already booked me for dinner this Thursday and Friday, so ...?

@BRUTE: Gotcha. One person's relative weakness is another person's attractive vacuum. And, of course, unlike an elderly blue-haired firmly girdled matron such as myself, social manners are not within your realm of concern any more than techniques of flower arrangement.

[Ego]

@Ego,

If anything, there's nothing about neural wiring that is deterministic, it's going to be more stochastic, the gradual result of many different probabilities occurring over time.

I had to look up stochastic models. I agree.

[enigmaT120]

Learning to defer gratitude is one of the early steps of typical human development/maturity. It just happens later in some of us later than in others.

I think it's a bad idea at any age.

[7Wannabe5]

@ffj: No worries. I know that reading my writing is kind of like driving in Tehran. The second more subtle point I was trying to make in the post you referenced was that when I tell people about my permaculture lifestyle/philosophy, they usually don't get that it is not about being some green-shade of selfless. It is about being lazy and clever. Just like ERE.

[BRUTE]

brute has to +1 ffj's confusion about 7wannabe5's writing style. sometimes brute isn't sure if 7wannabe5 is talking about brute or implying things, like the bragging and making fun of - none of which brute intended to do, but both of which were mentioned by 7wannabe5 in an @brute comment.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: Sorry about that. I did not mean to direct that at you. It's just the general tone of this thread and others like it. Wouldn't it be more productive if the INTJ majority here started some threads about things INTJ's generally suck at and then encouraged each other to stretch in those directions? I think it is beneath you guys to keep talking about the broke, obese masses as if you don't maybe have some work of your own to focus on. For instance, how is re-framing being a spendthrift or overweight as a virtue any different than re-framing extreme introversion as a virtue?

[IlliniDave]

Learning to defer gratitude is one of the early steps of typical human development/maturity. It just happens later in some of us later than in others.

I think it's a bad idea at any age.

Haha! Yeah, I meant gratification. Gratitude is good all the time.