Aging slower and FI

[Chad]

This is an interesting article on how our state of mind controls some form of how we age:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/radical-e ... 44551.html

The interesting thing is the experiment and the theories from the experiment seem to miss a conclusion. It's not that old queues made them imagine they were young again. They felt part of life, society, etc. again. Though, it was a faked society. These people had removed themselves from society and allowed society to remove them. In turn, they assumed they should just sit in a chair and wait to die.

I would suggest the real takeaway from this experiment is to always remain engaged with life. Not to put yourself in the past. This is a partial answer to a question bouncing around on this board the last few days, "Where are all the the financially retired on here?" I would suggest, and others have noted this throughout this forum's history, including Jacob, that our ultimate goal is not really financial. This is just a tool to create the life we want. So, for many on here, they continue to have some form of work because the ultimate goal isn't necessarily to give up working and have a traditional retirement, but to build your best life.

The people in the experiment never built their best life. They built what they were told was their "best life" and found it wanting, but never consciously came to that realization. This prevented them from staying engaged with society and engaged with their lives.

[J_]

(Ere is)" This is just a tool to create the life we want. So, for many on here, they continue to have some form of work because the ultimate goal isn't necessarily to give up working and have a traditional retirement, but to build your best life."

Well said Chad, indeed is ere ( to me ) a way to age a little bit slower, as I can live at my own speed, and can avoid unduly pressure. Only fate and my own shortcomings lead sometimes to struggles with which I have to cope.

[Ego]

The people in the experiment never built their best life. They built what they were told was their "best life" and found it wanting, but never consciously came to that realization. This prevented them from staying engaged with society and engaged with their lives.

I've read her book but never thought about it that way. It fits well with the idea from Sapiens that culture is the enforcer of the conventional lifestyle. I think that's why people come here, for a alternative culture. It also fits well with those who suggest that aging itself is unnatural, specifically the Hyperfunction Theory of Aging.

http://gettingstronger.org/2015/03/live-longer/

[Sclass]

Chad, thanks for posting. Very interesting. A good warning to myself to avoid slipping sideways. I am actually worried that after being out of the workplace for three years I'm doing brain damage to myself. Just a worry at this point.

[Chad]

I've been thinking about "building a life" a lot more lately. The financial part has always been rather simple, as I have understood the basic principles of finance from an early age (probably one of the reasons I don't like Kiyosaki). So, financially I'm on track, but I'm not so sure I am with my life as a whole. I have probably sacrificed some life for financial/career reasons and I'm working on remedying the problem. Probably why this article stood out for me.

[vexed87]

Chad, thanks for posting. Very interesting. A good warning to myself to avoid slipping sideways. I am actually worried that after being out of the workplace for three years I'm doing brain damage to myself. Just a worry at this point.

@S-class, being out of a the mundane workplace environment is doing you damage? You must be mad! Naturally the key is to occupy your days with things you enjoy. Lots of research highlights the importance of keeping yourself active (mentally and physically), it won't go as far as preventing aging, but will definitely slow any deterioration of body and mind, if you don't use it, you lose it!

I have my own anecdotal evidence, as those family members who I have seen give up on exercise and seeking mental stimulation are the ones who seem to deteriorate much faster than others who remain active.

The article puts simply the age old wisdom of living the way you want to, not the way other's expect you to.

Thanks for sharing Chad.

[Sclass]

Well, I'd say it's just a worry at this point. working damaged my blood pressure and sanity. I'm certainly more chilled out now. My worry is the pressure of constantly strategizing and anticipating problems and digging us out of problems in my last job kept a certain part of my brain sharp. It's like not speaking a second language for a few years and losing it.

Ok, so I also lost the manipulation of 100s of vendors, blue collar employees, creditors, and customers each with their own agenda. While that was a big mind game, I don't miss that. At the end I was basically doing ops for a company I no longer owned...for a COO the board hired to take credit for my work. So my world has shrunk for better or worse. I am healthier but I don't have the same intense level of interaction and gamesmanship that I had a few years ago. It's like saying I'm getting out of shape because I don't have a daily ten hour nonstop game of dodge ball going.

I spend time skypeing an aging parent and worry about one day getting all muddled up from my years of chilling. I'm hardly mentally idle now, just on a different treadmill.

[vexed87]

I guess that is why a lot of FI people continue to work. Have you thought about starting up your own venture now you are FI? That's my dream.

[Sclass]

I guess that is why a lot of FI people continue to work. Have you thought about starting up your own venture now you are FI? That's my dream.

Oh Gawd no. Been there done that. The business activity I played in was like investing everything in one basket. It was good when I was younger, energetic and dumb. The graveyard is full of daring people, I got lucky and waltzed in and out and had some cash left in my pockets as I slipped out the door. Off topic. This belongs in the oldpro post on frugality vs. entrepreneurialism.

I am just worried my new laid back life is going to rot my brain. I'm not idle, but compared to the firefight I used to live in I'm pretty much unplugged. So I guess I'm worried about how much "stimulation" I need to avoid dementia (as if I can stimulate it away)?

[almostthere]

@ Sclass It has been a year and a half or so for me without working. I think your concern is well placed. I think I now finally have a reasonable social life, but it could be better. I have pretty good intellectual life based on being a serial MOOC student. I also meditate alot and that certainly helps mental contentment. I think there is something else missing though. I am contemplating very seriously starting to consult in my old profession. It is a very unoriginal response to the problem of being mentally and socially engaged, but I am now over the old mind set that I would never work 'that job' ever again. Now I just see it as chance for some money, to work in group which I enjoy, and to get some travel in. I think I may be one of those types that tried to 'retire', did not 'succeed', and will try again in a few years with more experience. All in all not working has been much harder than I expected.

@ Chad DId I create the life I wanted? Hmmm...I created a lot of it. I and my family are much happier and content than ever before. However, I have not yet solved how to be engaged without working problem.

[jennypenny]

I am just worried my new laid back life is going to rot my brain. I'm not idle, but compared to the firefight I used to live in I'm pretty much unplugged. So I guess I'm worried about how much "stimulation" I need to avoid dementia (as if I can stimulate it away)?

http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavio ... in-old-age

Maybe I should post this in the Art and ERE thread?

[jacob]

@Sclass - The first few weeks/months after starting the quant job. I noticed the following.

* Shortly after coming home each nite, I was exhausted enough to need a nap for about an hour. I felt the same way when I started a physically laborious job (practically all my jobs in this life has involved sitting on my ass staring at numbers) when I was a sophomore. In both cases, this feeling went away after some time. Adaptation?

* In the beginning I was constantly running into things like "uhh.. what's the integral of ln(x) again.. I used to know this shit in high school and now I'm as a dumb as a fifth grader". Again, this knowledge was recovered much quicker than it was gained in the first place back when I was actually in HS. This loss is mental capacity is a real thing though(!) Apparently, high-powered mentats can lose some 10+ effective IQ points on a two week vacation. It makes sense insofar that the mind is similar to the muscles. It's hard to gain the first time; anything not in use atrophies; it's much easier to recover the previous level than it is to gain it in the first place(*).

(*) But perhaps there's a limit to this. I'm taking up running again. When I was 20, I could go from couch to full tilt (6:30 min miles) within two weeks of training. Today at 39, after not running much at all for almost two decades, it's a carefully scheduled progression at the edge of joint injury.

[Sclass]

Hey JP thanks for the suggestion of art. I'm still a maker so I get a lot of stimulation from my various projects. I'll keep that one in mind.

I'm getting the social engagement thing a little mixed up. I feel there is something missing. I have a lot of business contacts but the vast majority of them are people who do things for me for money. They try hard to keep me happy. I don't have to struggle get what I want like when I was working.

As crazy as it sounds, the fight or war zone that surrounded me while working was stimulating. But it was killing me at the same time.

Thanks for the tips folks.

[Ego]

The underlying reasons a person seeks retirement has a lot to do with their success in retirement. It seems to me that retirees separate into two groups, those who retire for negative-freedom reasons (freedom from) and those who do it for positive-freedom reasons (freedom to). If my underlying goal is freedom from having to answer to a boss then it might be wise for me to find some positive-freedom motivations (is this what Chad is calling building their best life?) before taking the plunge. By itself, freedom-from anything is not life sustaining.

[Chad]

As crazy as it sounds, the fight or war zone that surrounded me while working was stimulating. But it was killing me at the same time.

This is a very real issue. How do you add productive stress without adding degenerative stress? The tight rope between the two is difficult to walk sometimes.

@Ego
Yes, that is what I was suggesting. I like the "from" and "to" descriptors you added, as it's probably a little clearer than just saying "best life."

[J_]

20 years ago I thougt about a hobby which I could do growing older. I still play piano. After Fi I promised myself to stay " adventourous" and I do ( since then I lived in three countries and applied my skills there). I found/find new sports ( walking, free style cc skiing, horse riding) which gives me pleasure and fitness. I strive to active use four languages. It keeps my brain working and allows me to learn from other cultures and writers (and these forums).
These plans and doiing so gives me the idea (the illusion?) that (my) aging will be slower.
To me : free to live after Fi requires plans and dedictation.
Thanks Chad and Ego for your post and reactions. It helps to think.

[Ego]

@Ego
Yes, that is what I was suggesting. I like the "from" and "to" descriptors you added, as it's probably a little clearer than just saying "best life."

I stole it from Jacob from that Money-is-Power thread where we danced around this same issue.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4080&p=58210&hilit ... dom#p58210

[jennypenny]

The Busier the Better: Greater Busyness Is Associated with Better Cognition

"Sustained engagement in mentally challenging activities has been shown to improve memory in older adults. ... Results revealed that greater busyness was associated with better processing speed, working memory, episodic memory, reasoning, and crystallized knowledge. Hierarchical regressions also showed that, after controlling for age and education, busyness accounted for significant additional variance in all cognitive constructs—especially episodic memory. Finally, an interaction between age and busyness was not present while predicting cognitive performance, suggesting that busyness was similarly beneficial in adults aged 50–89. Although correlational, these data demonstrate that living a busy lifestyle is associated with better cognition."

What they couldn't determine was whether keeping busy improved mental function or whether older adults with better mental function tended to stay busier than their counterparts. Obviously that's an important distinction that needs to be determined, but the study was interesting anyway. Disengaging too much is an occupational hazard with ERE, especially for introverts.

[GandK]

"Sustained engagement in mentally challenging activities..."

I was intrigued and pleased by this definition of busy. Most of the things that clutter up my calendar would not qualify, as they are deficient in either duration or challenge or both. My life is frequently just "a quick succession of busy nothings," as Jane Austen famously wrote. Which is the opposite of engagement, really, even if I am in public at the time. But busyness with flow is a good aim.

[Ego]

Disengaging too much is an occupational hazard with ERE, especially for introverts.

Many of the Soylents made a conscious effort to disengage. In fact, I would say that retirement for them was synonymous with purposeful-disengagement from everything difficult, uncomfortable or even slightly challenging. For some the act of speaking to another human being became a challenge.

One guy (who just died) was a senior official in a presidential administration and had photos in his apartment with him and the president in the oval office. He retired and gradually shut off contact with the outside world. Not pretty.

It is one of the reasons I don't like Myers-Briggs in general and the label 'introvert' particularly. As in, "I am an introvert".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_theory