BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war theme.

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Chad
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BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war theme.

Post by Chad »

Sorry about the delay.

Dirty Wars
By Jeremy Scahill

Image

Rating
5/10 New and interesting ideas/facts
9/10 Compilation of facts (mostly already known)

Synopsis
Scahill basically starts at 9/11 and works his way through special operations performed by US forces over the last decade. This ranges from focusing on specific commanders such as General McChrystal and Admiral McRaven to investigating specific actions taken, why these actions were necessary, if at all, and where these actions occurred.

Review
There is good and bad (my English teacher is cringing right now with this poor opening paragraph).

I was as disappointed, as I was with Blackwater (Dirty Wars is my last Scahill book). I assumed a book of this size, one closing in on a thousand pages, would have brought new and interesting facts to light. Well, it did, but they are almost all minor details.

Yes, the details about the victims are in many cases heart wrenching. But, at other times you believe Mr. Scahill is being naive as he fails to question a story or at least point out the possibility of prejudice or duplicity when a story was told to him.

The other issue I have with Scahill is that he seems to try and paint certain facts like he is the first one to find them. JSOC, the Joint Special Operations Command, is a prime example. He brings this up like it’s a gem only he has found. Like they have been hiding in the shadows with no one knowing they exist, which is just not true. I had heard of JSOC and knew what it was years before even having the information crutch of the internet.

Ok, I’ve complained enough about this book. Time for me to move on to what it does right.

Scahill does an excellent job of detailing the historical timeline and scope of these black operations. He isn’t going to surprise you with facts very often if you have been paying attention to the US “war” on terror, but now and then he ferrets an interesting tidbit out.

For instance, he notes that we have black operations in over 75 countries. This is an eye opener considering there are only roughly 190-200 countries in the world (the number fluctuates rather wildly based on your criteria and the day you count them), that is almost half of all countries. The scope is rather staggering. Of course, not all of those operations are Afghani level Tier 1 assaults.

This scope, along with a lot of other facts (1 or 2 targets taken out at the cost of 20 or more collateral targets killed, Americans targeted, etc.), does back-up one of the more interesting themes of the book, which is the growth in JSOC and its associated power. It does appear that we have built a monster and that monster only knows how to do one thing…hunt and kill.

This is not the monster’s fault, it’s what we have trained and asked them to do. It is the lack of real leaders and a corrupt bureaucracy. Of course, we these failures in a myriad of other subjects.

My major takeaway from the book is the lack of soft power in our strategic plans. Yes, I know this is somewhat of a confirmation bias, but it seems extremely valid. In the book, one operator sums it up with his own take on a common saying, “What we have essentially done is created one hell of a hammer, and for the rest of our generation, for the rest of my lifetime, this force will be continually searching for a nail.”

Discussion Questions
1. When is it ok to assassinate/target Americans without due process?
2. When is it ok to assassinate/target foreign nationals in countries we aren’t at war with?
3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer?
4. How do we regain control of JSOC?

Note: There is a documentary on Dirty Wars, which I watched along with reading the book. It's a little Dateline NBC with the victims, but isn't bad. If you don't want to spend the time on the book, which is big, take an hour and half and watch the documentary.

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jennypenny
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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by jennypenny »

I read the book and watched the film. I think my biggest complaint is that is was more about Scahill than the victims or black ops. I understand why people think these operations should be stopped. I can also understand those who think they should continue. I know quite a few though, who cheered when Bin Laden was killed but oppose black ops. You can't have it both ways. It's the same with a lot of other intelligence issues.

If people are surprised at the scope of these operations, imagine now how expansive they are in the US. The lack of outrage shocks me.

Random thoughts:
--I was aware of the extent of these operations. If you include cyber attacks on people including framing people so that their own people will take them out, it's larger than Scahill says. I'm not sure if most people are aware of this. I'm not sure why Scahill wasn't if he was a war reporter for 10 years.
--It's common for IA's to give plant false evidence for the other side to find and act upon. The police commander who was killed may have been implicated by the Taliban. Or he may have been Taliban. It's murky.
--The military hides what it does from the press. So does the rest of the government. Transparency is a joke.
--The men who end up in these units aren't evil. They are usually the brightest recruits. They understand more than most what is at stake. I feel for them too.
--The government will do anything now under the guise of the war on terror. Here and abroad. Think of the expansion of powers of all of the intelligence agencies. I think it's too high a price to pay for safety. I also think we're not much safer. It just provides the illusion that we're safer.
--Pet peeve alert ... I don't put much credence into reporting where the reporter approaches a crowd and asks them what happened. Think of the crowds you see interviewed in the US. Think of the people eager to jump in front of the reporter's mic and talk. They usually aren't representative of the mainstream.

Discussion Questions
1. When is it ok to assassinate/target Americans without due process?
Never. I'm not even a fan of capital punishment after due process. That said, if an american leaves the country and assists the enemy, he's fair game. I think treason immediately revokes all priviledges that come with citizenship.

2. When is it ok to assassinate/target foreign nationals in countries we aren’t at war with?
This is tough. I would say when they pose an imminent threat to any american. Of course, that definition leaves a lot of wiggle room. I used to think the wiggle room was a good thing so it didn't box them into certain criteria, but now I think it's too much and the scope needs to be narrowed.

3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer?
The judicious use of force creates the right amount of fear and respect and reduces terrorism. We've gone from too little to too much, both of which resulted in making us bigger targets.

4. How do we regain control of JSOC?
How do we regain control of the entire intelligence community? I'm not sure it can be done.

sshawnn
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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by sshawnn »

I really tried to read the book......then I tried to skim it......then I just watched the movie :oops:

This is one of those topics that I do not devote much time too-ultimately because it really is beyond my control.

That being said I believe that it is important to have a rough shod understanding of what is really going on as to be uncomfortably informed.

As far as the book I compared the writing style to David Foster Wallace in Infinite Jest.

Scahill's stories seemed to have numerous incomplete story lines or at least situations that said "but what about???" Maybe his intent was to create more questions.



Discussion Questions
1. When is it ok to assassinate/target Americans without due process? I do not think this should happen. Even if the transparency is stained I think due process and some attempt at rightfully recovering the details of a crime should occur.

2. When is it ok to assassinate/target foreign nationals in countries we aren’t at war with? This question and recent instances where this has occurred simply creates more questions for me. WRT Bin Laden, is the whole incident simply a feel good propaganda campaign? Was he truly the leader the US govt proclaimed he was? etc etc

3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer? Am I being targeted by the NSA simply by participating in this thread?

4. How do we regain control of JSOC? Good theoretical question but we already know the answer. If (insert presidential candidate of choice from any party) is elected president next term will they give bach the (JSOC, NSA) power that the previous administrations have created? I think not.

Dragline
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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Dragline »

I, too, found this book somewhat of a labor to get through. I felt as if the author had dumped all of his articles and notes into it en masse, and that it was trying to tell several different stories on the same timeline, giving the book a choppy screen-play kind of feel, a la “Meanwhile, back in Somalia . . .”

I didn’t think his attempt to elevate Awlaki to some kind of martyr status worked very well. I did not find him very sympathetic in the end and it actually seemed to detract from the point that having the U.S. government go after it’s citizens without due process is a bad thing. He seemed more like the exception that proves the rule.

I had much more sympathy for the people who were caught in the cross-fire like the Afghan policeman and his family. To me that better illustrated the terrible nature and consequences of what the U.S. was doing. It also reflects the reality that wars, even when fought by special operations forces, are messy and innocent people get hurt. While the U.S. media pretty much sanitizes this aspect, it remains true.

It also confirmed my view that we live in an age of empire in the U.S., and that there is a lot of fear-mongering used to justify all sorts of things from random raids on foreign civilians to NSA surveillance in our own country. The actual risk to most Americans of a foreign terrorist attack – or any foreign attack of any kind -- is extremely small – far less than the risks of death from drunk drivers and crazy co-workers. And it is really only present in places that are known internationally, like New York, Washington or Boston. Yet it is used as a justification for so many things with very little criticism from U.S. media.

We’ve also reached a sort of Hunger Games fascination where we send these young people off to get maimed so we can gawk at their tragedies and get all maudlin when they return, as if it’s a made-for-TV drama. The story of Taylor Morris has been publicized recently. It’s a heart-wrenching story of a young man from Cedar Falls, Iowa who was about to marry his girlfriend, but went to Afghanistan with Special Ops and ended up losing most of his limbs. But he returned a hero, recovered and got married as planned. We love these stories. The media gobbles them up. Taylor Morris was everywhere from Piers Morgan to Fox News in September. Yet very few talk about whether he really had to go or not. The stock retort is always “of course he had to go to fight for and preserve our freedoms.”

Except I don’t think much of what Taylor was doing last year is connected with our freedoms. He certainly didn’t prevent the NSA for tracking my phone calls. Nor was I ever in any danger from the people he was trying to fight. What he was really doing out there was preserving and expanding the U.S. empire. Any threat to U.S. dominance is now repackaged and white-washed into “fighting for freedoms” -- no matter where the soldiers are sent or what they are actually doing. And the damage and death to our young people is then sold as a justification for our next military action.

One of the more interesting parts of the book for me was the description of how the neo-con agenda became the American agenda through the acts and influence of Rumsfeld an Cheney and their supporters and helpers. This agenda is a hold-over from the major political conflicts of the 20th century. If you recall your history, post-World War I, which ended the divine right of kings once and for all, there arose competing political systems – fascism, communism and corporate-style republics that vied for global dominance. Fascism was destroyed in the 40s except for a couple places like Spain. Communism fell apart (Soviet Union) and/or was largely abandoned (China) by the early 1990s, except in a few places like North Korea. Under neo-con thinking, since our system “won” the 20th century, the next logical step or manifest destiny was global dominance, involving crushing all enemies, declared or potential, and remaking recalcitrant societies in our image, a la “nation-building”. Like the vanquished ideologies, this is a teleological movement that seeks to create a utopian world that is unified under one type of system. For more on this, I would suggest “Black Mass” by John Gray, which makes a great companion to Scahill’s work. See http://www.theguardian.com/books/2007/j ... y.politics for a review/summary.

The other thought or impression I had as I was reading this was that a lot of bad things happen when the unholy trinity of a teleological ideology, sociopathic/dominance-based behavior and careerism comes together. The ideology creates an environment where the end justifies the means (we’re creating utopia, dammit!), effectively giving permission to sociopathic individuals to authorize and engage in torture and other depraved activities, such as those described in the book at the various detention facilities. It also provides careerists (the largest component by numbers of individuals) to achieve successes that would not have been possible had there been no ideological movement. Note that careerists generally “go with the flow”. Actor-wise in this saga you see the ideologue, represented by Rumsfeld and the other neo-cons, the sociopath, represented by Cheney and those running the torture facilities, and the careerists, represented by Presidents Bush and Obama and a host of military commanders seeking to burnish their credentials and reputations. The passivity of the past two presidents and their fascination with just “winning” something to tell the press is particularly notable. They like the JSOC because it gives them lots of options. By the end of the book, you get the impression that while the neo-con ideology itself is on the wane, the empire-supporting apparatus it set up has assumed a careerist life of its own and shows no signs of abatement, as Eisenhower famously warned that it might. The military loves the toys and prestige, the media loves the dramatic stories of our freedom fighters and the politicians love the power, status and speaking opportunities.

The other thing I got out of this book was a much better understanding of how these petty rulers in various countries use posturing and tactics to get money, arm or other support from foreign powers such as the U.S. to maintain their positions. This explains a lot some of the statements you see coming from Hamid Kharzai and others.

Regarding the four questions:

1. When is it ok to assassinate/target Americans without due process?

I agree pretty much with Jenny. If you can detain them and prosecute them because they are at home or in a friendly country, you ought to do it. And if there are not reachable, you need to consider whether they are actually a fighting threat. However, once they start living in war zones and hold themselves out as an enemy or supporters of an enemy, they can make themselves a target. The example of Anwar Awlaki was not a very good/persuasive one for Scahill to use.

A more interesting example would be Edward Snowden. I can’t think of any circumstance that I would agree that he could be targeted as opposed to prosecuted. But he’s not living in a war zone cheering on terrorist activities that result in death and maiming.

2. When is it ok to assassinate/target foreign nationals in countries we aren’t at war with?

Not very often – and we should have permission from the country in question. It appears such permission can be purchased quite easily in many places. I don’t think we should be responsible for how poorly some other countries are governed.

3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer?

Most of the time. Even things that “work” very well for a time often backfire later on. The whole U.S./Iran relationship can be traced back to the CIA messing around there in the 1950s. And the Taliban fighters we happily support in the 1980s, along with Saddam Hussein. You can see the end result of that. We’d do well to stay out of most of these places and not try to fix them. The arguments against this position are generally empire-based, especially when you hear people babbling about such things as “prestige”, “respect” and “influence” – as if all of our freedoms are at stake every time some two-bit despot or would-be terrorist insults us. I also note that the inhabitants of countries not obsessed with the empire words do not seem to have as much trouble with terrorist threats. I don’t see Canadians jumping up and down about the outrageous jokes we tell about them.

4. How do we regain control of JSOC?

Has to be through Congress. But our legislative branch is weak and seems to be getting weaker. There are no statesmen – only careerists. Much easier to wave the flag, profess support for your war-maimed constituents and fund the military operations that help your home state or district than to take any hard stands.

As the book notes, people who disdain the trappings of empire are marginalized in both parties (Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were the examples). Thus, I doubt you’d ever see a non-empire supporting candidate for president out of either party anytime soon. Some people thought that was what Obama was, but he quickly saw the careerist path of least resistance and went with the status quo for most things.

The media could help, but is more interested in cheap drama for the masses and telling people what they want to hear (as in why its really a necessary and brave thing that their son or neighbor is maimed physically or mentally) rather than changing the status quo. And they have learned that they get more bang for their buck by regurgitating official press releases and statements than to actually go investigate anything. The only media that spends any money on investigative journalism anymore is Al Jazeera, I’m afraid.

Chad
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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Chad »

jennypenny wrote: If people are surprised at the scope of these operations, imagine now how expansive they are in the US. The lack of outrage shocks me.
The lack of outrage worries me. Though, I would bet barely 10-20% of the population gives it any thought.

This is the real reason I put this book on the list for the book club. I don't think the US pays enough attention to this.
jennypenny wrote: Random thoughts:
--I was aware of the extent of these operations. If you include cyber attacks on people including framing people so that their own people will take them out, it's larger than Scahill says. I'm not sure if most people are aware of this. I'm not sure why Scahill wasn't if he was a war reporter for 10 years.
I know he is semi-close to Greenwald, so he has to know. Maybe writing a specific book on cyber operations with what he has and what Greenwald has?
jennypenny wrote: --It's common for IA's to give plant false evidence for the other side to find and act upon. The police commander who was killed may have been implicated by the Taliban. Or he may have been Taliban. It's murky.
Yeah, the police commander could have easily been Taliban or associated with them. Especially considering the remoteness of the village. The guy probably had to play both sides just have a chance of surviving.
jennypenny wrote: --The military hides what it does from the press. So does the rest of the government. Transparency is a joke.
It tracks back to Morley Safer in Vietnam, where a US official told him point blank, "we lie to you constantly and you're a moron if you believe anything we say."

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003698.html
jennypenny wrote: --The men who end up in these units aren't evil. They are usually the brightest recruits. They understand more than most what is at stake. I feel for them too.
Agreed, they aren't evil and are generally very bright.

My question is have we eliminated too much of the criticism of soldiers because of our poor reaction to veterans returning from Vietnam? I'm not suggesting we should treat them poorly, but we give them a complete free pass for doing things they know hurt the US, just because they are ordered. These current soldiers are volunteers, not draftees. They weren't forced to join (though, one could argue some were based on financial/social conditions they grew up in).

They, as you pointed out, are really the best and brightest. They have to know a lot of these missions do more harm than good.

So, does this leave them open for criticism? I don't know. It's a very fine edge given how the military needs people to follow orders to function properly. It's just a thought to discuss, not one I'm necessarily advocating.
jennypenny wrote: --The government will do anything now under the guise of the war on terror. Here and abroad. Think of the expansion of powers of all of the intelligence agencies. I think it's too high a price to pay for safety. I also think we're not much safer. It just provides the illusion that we're safer.
I agree it's too high a price. Especially, when the extra measures from the wars to the TSA are a complete safety illusion.
jennypenny wrote: --Pet peeve alert ... I don't put much credence into reporting where the reporter approaches a crowd and asks them what happened. Think of the crowds you see interviewed in the US. Think of the people eager to jump in front of the reporter's mic and talk. They usually aren't representative of the mainstream.
Plus, it is really difficult to detect lies through an interpreter. All of the little facial and voice clues are eliminated.
jennypenny wrote: Discussion Questions
1. When is it ok to assassinate/target Americans without due process?
Never. I'm not even a fan of capital punishment after due process. That said, if an american leaves the country and assists the enemy, he's fair game. I think treason immediately revokes all priviledges that come with citizenship.
The problem is, who determines what is treasonous? There is a rather stark divide on Snowden.

I'm not a fan of capital punishment either. Yes, some people do deserve to die for the type of crimes they commit, but good luck not executing someone who is innocent. I would much rather let a guilty man go free than put an innocent man in jail.
jennypenny wrote: 2. When is it ok to assassinate/target foreign nationals in countries we aren’t at war with?
This is tough. I would say when they pose an imminent threat to any american. Of course, that definition leaves a lot of wiggle room. I used to think the wiggle room was a good thing so it didn't box them into certain criteria, but now I think it's too much and the scope needs to be narrowed.
Difficult. For me, the answer is to just pullback on Presidential powers. By make this non-dictatorial, it makes the thought process deeper and argumentative.
jennypenny wrote: 3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer?
The judicious use of force creates the right amount of fear and respect and reduces terrorism. We've gone from too little to too much, both of which resulted in making us bigger targets.
Agreed, but I think we are rather far past "too much." Killing twenty semi-innocents to get 2-3 mid-tier players is not going to bring victory, as it probably created way more recruits than the 2-3 it removed. We need to use more soft-power.
jennypenny wrote: 4. How do we regain control of JSOC?
How do we regain control of the entire intelligence community? I'm not sure it can be done.
Probably not. This is the one doomer scenario you might get me on. :D

Thanks for responding in detail.

Chad
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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Chad »

sshawnn wrote:I really tried to read the book......then I tried to skim it......then I just watched the movie :oops:
I did the same thing, but then went back to the book.
sshawnn wrote: This is one of those topics that I do not devote much time too-ultimately because it really is beyond my control.
I disagree. It was obvious Iraq was a setup and it's our fault, as US citizens. We allowed it to happen.
sshawnn wrote: Discussion Questions
1. When is it ok to assassinate/target Americans without due process? I do not think this should happen. Even if the transparency is stained I think due process and some attempt at rightfully recovering the details of a crime should occur.
Agreed. At least a trial in absentia should occur.
sshawnn wrote: 3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer? Am I being targeted by the NSA simply by participating in this thread?
Thought the same myself.

sshawnn wrote: 4. How do we regain control of JSOC? Good theoretical question but we already know the answer. If (insert presidential candidate of choice from any party) is elected president next term will they give bach the (JSOC, NSA) power that the previous administrations have created? I think not.
Based on historical precedent, no the new President(s) would not give back any power. This is an issue we will have to tackle as a country, at some point, or there will be issues.

Thanks for responding.

Chad
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Chad »

Dragline wrote: I didn’t think his attempt to elevate Awlaki to some kind of martyr status worked very well. I did not find him very sympathetic in the end and it actually seemed to detract from the point that having the U.S. government go after it’s citizens without due process is a bad thing. He seemed more like the exception that proves the rule.
Agreed.
Dragline wrote: I had much more sympathy for the people who were caught in the cross-fire like the Afghan policeman and his family. To me that better illustrated the terrible nature and consequences of what the U.S. was doing. It also reflects the reality that wars, even when fought by special operations forces, are messy and innocent people get hurt. While the U.S. media pretty much sanitizes this aspect, it remains true.
I didn't. I found it unconvincing. There were potentially a lot of holes in the Afghan's stories, but Scahill didn't go done them. It was probably impossible to go very far down them, but he didn't even show us he tried.
Dragline wrote: It also confirmed my view that we live in an age of empire in the U.S., and that there is a lot of fear-mongering used to justify all sorts of things from random raids on foreign civilians to NSA surveillance in our own country. The actual risk to most Americans of a foreign terrorist attack – or any foreign attack of any kind -- is extremely small – far less than the risks of death from drunk drivers and crazy co-workers. And it is really only present in places that are known internationally, like New York, Washington or Boston. Yet it is used as a justification for so many things with very little criticism from U.S. media.
Yeah, "empire" does appear to be an applicable term now. It's a shame really. I really thought we were better than this as country. Probably just youthful ignorance.

There is far more risk dying in a car wreck driving to work than a terrorist killing you. Reminds me of when 9/11 happened. I was working in downtown Pittsburgh and a few people were theorizing that the terrorists were targeting the USX building (tallest building in Pittsburgh). My immediate response was, "They don't even know where Pittsburgh is on the map." The flame of self-importance rearing it's head.
Dragline wrote: We’ve also reached a sort of Hunger Games fascination where we send these young people off to get maimed so we can gawk at their tragedies and get all maudlin when they return, as if it’s a made-for-TV drama. The story of Taylor Morris has been publicized recently. It’s a heart-wrenching story of a young man from Cedar Falls, Iowa who was about to marry his girlfriend, but went to Afghanistan with Special Ops and ended up losing most of his limbs. But he returned a hero, recovered and got married as planned. We love these stories. The media gobbles them up. Taylor Morris was everywhere from Piers Morgan to Fox News in September. Yet very few talk about whether he really had to go or not. The stock retort is always “of course he had to go to fight for and preserve our freedoms.”

Except I don’t think much of what Taylor was doing last year is connected with our freedoms. He certainly didn’t prevent the NSA for tracking my phone calls. Nor was I ever in any danger from the people he was trying to fight. What he was really doing out there was preserving and expanding the U.S. empire. Any threat to U.S. dominance is now repackaged and white-washed into “fighting for freedoms” -- no matter where the soldiers are sent or what they are actually doing. And the damage and death to our young people is then sold as a justification for our next military action.
Agreed. I am interested on hearing your thoughts about the point I raised when I responded to Jenny about not criticizing soldiers. Do we do them a disservice by giving them a 100% get out of jail free card (This is a metaphor. By no means should they go to jail)? I don't know.
Dragline wrote: One of the more interesting parts of the book for me was the description of how the neo-con agenda became the American agenda through the acts and influence of Rumsfeld an Cheney and their supporters and helpers. This agenda is a hold-over from the major political conflicts of the 20th century. If you recall your history, post-World War I, which ended the divine right of kings once and for all, there arose competing political systems – fascism, communism and corporate-style republics that vied for global dominance. Fascism was destroyed in the 40s except for a couple places like Spain. Communism fell apart (Soviet Union) and/or was largely abandoned (China) by the early 1990s, except in a few places like North Korea. Under neo-con thinking, since our system “won” the 20th century, the next logical step or manifest destiny was global dominance, involving crushing all enemies, declared or potential, and remaking recalcitrant societies in our image, a la “nation-building”. Like the vanquished ideologies, this is a teleological movement that seeks to create a utopian world that is unified under one type of system. For more on this, I would suggest “Black Mass” by John Gray, which makes a great companion to Scahill’s work. See http://www.theguardian.com/books/2007/j ... y.politics for a review/summary.
That looks like a great recommendation. Thanks, Dragline.
Dragline wrote: The other thought or impression I had as I was reading this was that a lot of bad things happen when the unholy trinity of a teleological ideology, sociopathic/dominance-based behavior and careerism comes together.
I really like that thought, it's a good way of describing the current situation in broad themes.
Dragline wrote: By the end of the book, you get the impression that while the neo-con ideology itself is on the wane, the empire-supporting apparatus it set up has assumed a careerist life of its own and shows no signs of abatement, as Eisenhower famously warned that it might. The military loves the toys and prestige, the media loves the dramatic stories of our freedom fighters and the politicians love the power, status and speaking opportunities.
I agree. Though, we may be seeing some hope. The recent court ruling against the NSA, though just a beginning, is hopeful.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/d ... onal-judge
Dragline wrote: The other thing I got out of this book was a much better understanding of how these petty rulers in various countries use posturing and tactics to get money, arm or other support from foreign powers such as the U.S. to maintain their positions. This explains a lot some of the statements you see coming from Hamid Kharzai and others.
This was my basic theme behind my Iranian/Saudi thread a week ago or so. We seem to take foreign leaders at their word for everything, but it's all part of the big game.

Dragline wrote: 2. When is it ok to assassinate/target foreign nationals in countries we aren’t at war with?

Not very often – and we should have permission from the country in question. It appears such permission can be purchased quite easily in many places. I don’t think we should be responsible for how poorly some other countries are governed.
I doubt we have made many of these strikes without permission from a country's government. Even the assault to get Osama, while not directly approved, was implicitly approved by giving us permission for all the other drone strikes and black operations we had permission to perform in Pakistan.

For me, it's the cost of the strategy, more than it's a legal issue.
Dragline wrote: 3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer?

Most of the time. Even things that “work” very well for a time often backfire later on. The whole U.S./Iran relationship can be traced back to the CIA messing around there in the 1950s. And the Taliban fighters we happily support in the 1980s, along with Saddam Hussein. You can see the end result of that. We’d do well to stay out of most of these places and not try to fix them. The arguments against this position are generally empire-based, especially when you hear people babbling about such things as “prestige”, “respect” and “influence” – as if all of our freedoms are at stake every time some two-bit despot or would-be terrorist insults us. I also note that the inhabitants of countries not obsessed with the empire words do not seem to have as much trouble with terrorist threats. I don’t see Canadians jumping up and down about the outrageous jokes we tell about them.
I couldn't agree with you more about this. Especially, on being more selective on black operations and on who we support.
Dragline wrote: 4. How do we regain control of JSOC?

Has to be through Congress. But our legislative branch is weak and seems to be getting weaker. There are no statesmen – only careerists. Much easier to wave the flag, profess support for your war-maimed constituents and fund the military operations that help your home state or district than to take any hard stands.

As the book notes, people who disdain the trappings of empire are marginalized in both parties (Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich were the examples). Thus, I doubt you’d ever see a non-empire supporting candidate for president out of either party anytime soon. Some people thought that was what Obama was, but he quickly saw the careerist path of least resistance and went with the status quo for most things.

The media could help, but is more interested in cheap drama for the masses and telling people what they want to hear (as in why its really a necessary and brave thing that their son or neighbor is maimed physically or mentally) rather than changing the status quo. And they have learned that they get more bang for their buck by regurgitating official press releases and statements than to actually go investigate anything. The only media that spends any money on investigative journalism anymore is Al Jazeera, I’m afraid.
Agreed on Congressional power, it's too weak right now.

I have a thought on the "Empire" theme. Do we/any empire/super power have to act like an empire to some extent, just to preserve itself? I'm not talking about the careerism point you brought up earlier (that appears to be true). I'm suggesting that Canada maybe doesn't get the terrorist threats because they aren't THE superpower. Maybe the US would be targeted no matter what we did (Though, even if true, I'm sure we could lesson it with the proper response.)? Just a thought.

Thanks for responding.
Last edited by Chad on Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by jennypenny »

Re: Empire--The US is 'too big to fail' now. Not that it couldn't fail, but that it's so big it's main purpose now is to sustain it's existence.

Re: Snowden--I go back and forth. I'm glad he did what he did. I also know *exactly* what he signed when he took that job, so what he did was wrong. (govt couldn't function if too many disregarded security clearance agreements) I wouldn't be surprised if he was targeted now because he is overseas. I wouldn't argue if he was treated as a whistleblower if he was in the US though.

(sorry so brief--on my phone)

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by sshawnn »

Preface I am woefully uneducated about foregin policy in general. I do appreciate Chad to spur me to consider alternatives to mainstream information sources (but wait, wasn't this book a best seller :? .) My stance is likely based more on not devoting too much time to the subject because I have been working feverishly on other areas that are very controllable. ;)



sshawnn wrote:

"This is one of those topics that I do not devote much time too-ultimately because it really is beyond my control. "


"I disagree. It was obvious Iraq was a setup and it's our fault, as US citizens. We allowed it to happen. "


I see the point you are arguing from and ultimately disagree with it.

wrt "We allowed it to happen."

Even if we voted in a powerful politician in a powerful position, would that person be able to influence the parameters in which JSOC operates?

I think what Chad is doing is very important.....raising awareness and understanding of very real circumstances that threaten a way of life. Unfortunately it seems raising awareness and changing policy (protection of civil liberties) are different things. How do I get to a point where I can believe that my vote counts?

Chad, thanks for all the thought, effort and writing you are putting into this thread! You are setting the bar very high for the following tators.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Chad »

sshawnn wrote:Preface I am woefully uneducated about foregin policy in general. I do appreciate Chad to spur me to consider alternatives to mainstream information sources (but wait, wasn't this book a best seller :? .) My stance is likely based more on not devoting too much time to the subject because I have been working feverishly on other areas that are very controllable. ;)
It was a best seller, so not entirely a non-mainstream information source. Plus, Scahill is rather strongly left-leaning, but it does provide a lot of examples.

It is difficult to weed through all the information (real and fake) about foreign policy issues, no doubt about that. One of the problems is that mainstream news tends to lead, but never follow-up. For instance, (national not international story example) virtually none of the killings, rapes, murders, shootings, etc. that were initially reported to have happened in the aftermath of Katrina actually happened. Yet, mainstream news LOUDLY reported on these events happening, but barely made a sound on retracting them.

sshawnn wrote: sshawnn wrote:

"This is one of those topics that I do not devote much time too-ultimately because it really is beyond my control. "


"I disagree. It was obvious Iraq was a setup and it's our fault, as US citizens. We allowed it to happen. "


I see the point you are arguing from and ultimately disagree with it.

wrt "We allowed it to happen."

Even if we voted in a powerful politician in a powerful position, would that person be able to influence the parameters in which JSOC operates?

I think what Chad is doing is very important.....raising awareness and understanding of very real circumstances that threaten a way of life. Unfortunately it seems raising awareness and changing policy (protection of civil liberties) are different things. How do I get to a point where I can believe that my vote counts?
I think where we differ is on time frame. I agree that short-term we would have a hard time influencing something like the vote to go to war in Iraq. It would have been nearly impossible to stop it given the mindset of everyone at the time. However, over the long-term we can eventually move these massive public perceptions, values, opinions, etc. Civil rights is a good example. It took a long time to get there, but every little step mattered.
sshawnn wrote: Chad, thanks for all the thought, effort and writing you are putting into this thread! You are setting the bar very high for the following tators.
Thank you. I was trying to just keep up with the prior ones. I still think my review could use some work, but just wanted to get it out there.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Seneca »

I think troops themselves, especially JSOC troops, get a pass provided they fight within their rules of engagement.

We have a civilian controlled military. It's up to us to make sure JSOC troopers aren't kicking doors down in the name of empire. We're failing them, they aren't failing us.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by jacob »

I hate writing reviews, and I hate writing reviews of big books full of details but with little theory, that is, explanation of structural connections, even more. That said, I think the format/execution of this book was necessary to drive the point home. Namely, there's a vast amount of operations going on that's not just some conspiracy theory (the message that publishing a 200 page book of systemic discussion risks) and which the "American people" is largely oblivious to thanks to US media and perhaps general apathy (case in point, the election participation of American Idol exceeds presidential election participation... this is not the case in most other first world democratic countries.)

Of course, the irony is having to go through nearly a 1000 pages of detail to viscerally get the point, that "there's a lot of stuff going on that we don't know about". And so, this will perhaps never be a public discussion; reason being that the Powerball lottery exceeded 500M+ (top of google news for about 24 hours which is just about a record anecdotally) and Beyonce just came out with a new album, also considered world news.

So onto the discussion:

I often lament that traveling teaches little about the subtleties of culture and that it takes several years of living in a country to detect the differences in how various countries "think". And I think I see the difference between the US and the old world. So let the broad sweeping generalizations commence:
The issue is not that the US is the current empire but that the US (that is, the American people) has no history of being an empire. The US is in a way young and its population is terribly naive. How else can ordinary citizens fall for slogans like "they hate our freedoms?" Europe has [had] that experience for hundreds of years already. Consider what the general message of World War II has been taught to Americans vis-a-vis Europeans. The American lesson is that the US used its mighty military power to take out evil Hitler and win the war. For details, see the History Channel. War was something that happened "over there" and the US won it.

In conclusion: We're Team America World Police.

Now, if you ask a European what the primary lesson was it was essentially that war happened "over here" and the reason was that we let a punk dictator gain more and more power step by step---with every intermediate step being just an acceptable bit extra---until it was too late.

The focus is two-fold: First, the tools and institutions that made it possible. Second, ordinary citizens who turned a blind eye in the name of "following orders, doing my job, wasn't me, I don't know anyone personally affected, it's just "that other demographic group" which everybody hates anyway, I signed a contract, I'm just a small cog in the machine, I know but what can one person do, I'm not directly responsible, it's my country, I got too much to lose,...".

Strategic moves and major battles go almost uncovered in schools.
(I never heard of the Battle of the Bulge until I moved to the US.)

In conclusion: Since people will always be people(*), we need to be real careful about what kind of institutional tools we give them.

This makes for a very different perspective on empire, government, and geo-political matters.

(*) Most people follow laws and contracts, and prefer to do their duty while not standing out. It is what it is---genetic makeup? It takes a moral backbone made out of titanium to risk personal danger or death in the name of universal principles if it violates any of the above. While common in theory, in practice, such backbones are extremely rare.

Discussion questions (1-4 + extra):
I like Dragline's classification, except, I would prefer to call the careerists bureaucrats or fonctionnaires, and I would also add a general class of anti-sociopaths, that is, people who significantly question the actions of the government---this should be the job of the media, but they're clearly failing on a world-wide basis as media now works on a commercial basis with people more interested in Powerball and Beyonce. Maybe also anti-ideologues. Anyhoo,... The reason I think of them as bureaucrats is that I think it captures the problem better. A bureaucrat is someone who disavows personal responsibility for their actions and defers it to the system. Not only do they obay laws for the sake of obeying laws (regardless of whether such laws are right or wrong) they will follow procedures for exactly the same reason. The result is that the system/institution almost grows its own mind after a while with nobody really controlling it.

Another way of looking at it is by the Gervais principle. It takes a couple of ideologues to think up an evil idea in the first place (the intellectuals). It then takes a couple of sociopaths to decide it's a great idea. But then it takes an army of clueless bureaucrats to carry it out. Once the clueless are in place, sociopaths can pretty much make them do whatever. Without clueless people, sociopaths can do little on their own.

The lack of control is what's dangerous because once a tool (a work structure for the clueless) is created it can be used for both good and evil. And usually the path to evil is graduate and subtle as no one in particular can be assigned the responsibility. It'll all look like natural reactions to problems that just happen to all push in the same direction.

What tool to use? It depends on what kind of war is being fought. There's a tendency in institutional thinking to fight the last war, always. Cavalry charges against machine guns in trenches. Then trenches against tanks. Then tanks against terrorists. In that regard, JSOC seems to be the right tool for the job, that is, fighting an asymmetric war. After the bungled Iraq invasion the Obama administration finally caught up with that. I'm a big fan of "appropriate technology", appropriate response, appropriate anything. You gotta match the tool to the problem and it looks like this has been done. Also if you look at other countries, it looks like they've seen the light as well scaling down their conventional forces in favor of special ops forces.

4) Easy-peasy. Public transparency. Mandated if possible. Of course this will never happen, but imagine if it was mandated by law to have the first five minutes of each hour of TV programming dedicated to "war counts": This country, how many killed, ... etc. That newspapers _had_ to discuss this on a front page section on a daily basis. That congress had to discuss/read war results on a daily basis. Obviously in order to avoid giving away operational secrets, this information could be time-delayed. What needs to go away are unaccountable secrets and public ignorance. Of course this will never happen. But if it does happen, it will probably happen similarly to what's currently going on with the NSA. Information gets into the media. And then that information has to outcompete American Idol, etc. and if it does corporations take interest. The judicial branch gets on the case, and then maybe finally, congress?

A side-effect of this would be that not only will it then be possible for the US to take the moral high-ground. It will also speed up "public maturity" in terms of what's involved in running an empire.

3) I think the first principle of medicine is to do no harm. As a corollary it is mostly better to do too little than to do too much. Every time the hammer is used, nails are made. However, unknown unknowns, like screws and pins are also made. Using the hammer in secrecy will not prevent the generation of nails or screws. Rather, it will "wind up the position" tighter and tighter until there's a blow-out. Sorry about the trading lingo, but you've all read Taleb. Furthermore, and in the same vein, using only one tool is usually bad due to lack of risk diversification. The answer is soft power, but I fear that Americans (sweeping generalization) are simply culturally blind to wielding power softly. But it will come.

2) Let me ask this question another way: When is it ok for, say Chinese, Russian, Saudi, ... agents/drones/etc to assassinate/target American citizens on American soil for unChinese, unRussian, unSaudi, ... activities? If yes, how do you feel about collateral damage, say, country X drones a couple of guilty US citizens but also happens to take out innocent 5 bystanders. I bet practically all Americans will say never ever under any circumstance!! So why do we feel it is okay the other way around? Frankly, this one boggles my mind. Everybody I've spoken to somehow fails to see the a/symmetry of their opinion. As a result, they fail to see why the hammer tends to generate so many nails. But really, how hard to can it to realize from the observation that 9/11 caused a surge in US military recruitment, that our attacks in other countries will cause similar surges there.

1) As far as I can tell the idea of due process of own citizens seems to be somewhat uniquely American as well. Other countries would have fewer protections for their own citizens should they turn violent against their own country. They would de facto be treated as an enemy. However, conversely, it's hard for me to imagine persecution simply based on warmongering speeches.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Chad »

jacob wrote: The issue is not that the US is the current empire but that the US (that is, the American people) has no history of being an empire. The US is in a way young and its population is terribly naive. How else can ordinary citizens fall for slogans like "they hate our freedoms?" Europe has [had] that experience for hundreds of years already. Consider what the general message of World War II has been taught to Americans vis-a-vis Europeans. The American lesson is that the US used its mighty military power to take out evil Hitler and win the war. For details, see the History Channel. War was something that happened "over there" and the US won it.

In conclusion: We're Team America World Police.

Now, if you ask a European what the primary lesson was it was essentially that war happened "over here" and the reason was that we let a punk dictator gain more and more power step by step---with every intermediate step being just an acceptable bit extra---until it was too late.

The focus is two-fold: First, the tools and institutions that made it possible. Second, ordinary citizens who turned a blind eye in the name of "following orders, doing my job, wasn't me, I don't know anyone personally affected, it's just "that other demographic group" which everybody hates anyway, I signed a contract, I'm just a small cog in the machine, I know but what can one person do, I'm not directly responsible, it's my country, I got too much to lose,...".
This could definitely be the reason, but another option is the basic psychological makeup of those who settled here. The majority who came were rather conservative. While, conservatives don't have a monopoly on being focused on "hard" options, they do tend to be more focused on the "hard" aspect of power and punishment more than liberals. This is just a possibility, as I liked your suggestion and then tried to validate it by thinking about potential holes in the theory.
jacob wrote: Strategic moves and major battles go almost uncovered in schools.
(I never heard of the Battle of the Bulge until I moved to the US.)
This is kind of fascinating. We also have to take into account that the US really hadn't taken the mantle "Team America World Police" at that time. I'm not sure we thought we had, or could have had, much of any influence on any European countries one way or the other, concerning the rise of Hitler. Thus, we probably wrote our history based on that.
jacob wrote: In conclusion: Since people will always be people(*), we need to be real careful about what kind of institutional tools we give them.
Completely agree, which is why I'm so surprised everyone has forgotten about McCarthy, J. Edgar, etc. with the whole NSA thing.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by vivacious »

Chad wrote: Discussion Questions
1. When is it ok to assassinate/target Americans without due process?
2. When is it ok to assassinate/target foreign nationals in countries we aren’t at war with?
3. At what point are we creating the nails by using the hammer?
4. How do we regain control of JSOC?

Note: There is a documentary on Dirty Wars, which I watched along with reading the book. It's a little Dateline NBC with the victims, but isn't bad. If you don't want to spend the time on the book, which is big, take an hour and half and watch the documentary.

Just a quick reply for now.

1. Never
2. Never
3. Things have been going in this direction for quite awhile as the military-industrial complex gets bigger and bigger. It's at the point where we're finding things to do with it instead of using it as a last ditch option. It has been at that point for awhile but seems to be getting even worse in a way since Bush and Obama.
4. No idea. Public pressure, petitions, elections, protests, etc. We need to hold the representatives accountable to the law.


The pernicious, extrajudicial MO that has increasingly been becoming common since Bush and Obama is very troubling. This includes everything from Guantanamo Bay, to drone strikes, to Abu Ghraib, to spying on Americans and others on the phone, online, and other ways. This blatant disregard for the law has been very troubling. So I see JSOC and some of the things Schahill is talking about as part of a broader deteriorization of the system of both national and international law.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Dragline »

Chad wrote: Agreed. I am interested on hearing your thoughts about the point I raised when I responded to Jenny about not criticizing soldiers. Do we do them a disservice by giving them a 100% get out of jail free card (This is a metaphor. By no means should they go to jail)? I don't know.

[BREAK]

I have a thought on the "Empire" theme. Do we/any empire/super power have to act like an empire to some extent, just to preserve itself? I'm not talking about the careerism point you brought up earlier (that appears to be true). I'm suggesting that Canada maybe doesn't get the terrorist threats because they aren't THE superpower. Maybe the US would be targeted no matter what we did (Though, even if true, I'm sure we could lesson it with the proper response.)? Just a thought.

Thanks for responding.
On the first point, I think we need to be careful not to make blanket judgments about soldiers either way. There have been some prosecutions for truly depraved activity in action, but there is probably some that will never be prosecuted. I tend to be sympathetic to those on the front lines who are given a target and are doing what they were ordered to do, without any way of knowing if the target is legitimate. I place more of the blame on the commanders who were insisting on so-many-raids-per-night and identifying targets based on sketchy intelligence. I thought that part of the book was really appalling.

I also think there is a false idea being perpetuated by the government and much of the U.S. media that with our whiz-bang technology we can now fight "clean" wars where only the designated enemy can be taken out and that there is no reason for the local populace to be afraid or object. Wars have never been clean and never will be. Innocent people will have their lives ruined, be maimed and be killed, usually by accident. Soldiers will be killed by friendly fire. And every army will always have its depraved soldiers and deranged commanders. (I always think of Dr. Stranglove and Vonnegut's books on war.) It's become too easy for us to see this as some kind of video game. Fighting in other countries and causing "collateral damage" is always going to create more people that hate us.

On the second point, yes big important countries make big targets. But we are also a target because we have a military installations in so many places. The more places we insist that we "need" to be, the more likely we are to be a target. Compare what we did in the 1980s when the marine barracks was attacked in Lebanon with our approach now. At that point in time we pulled out -- we decided we really didn't need to be there. We didn't say we have to stay here because of "prestige" or "pride" reasons, and no one claimed that attack "was a threat to our freedoms." If that happened today, we'd have a troop surge, or at least a drone surge.

And compare the multi-lateral, consensus-type approach of the first Gulf War to how we do things now. It's completely different now -- this is why Colin Powell and others quit on the Cheney/Rumsfeld doctrines. This is where the Republic became the Empire,and we released an army of secretly stockpiled and trained clones -- whoops, I mean drones and special ops forces.

I'm very conscious that the real enemy here is (was mostly now) driven by its own teleological zeal to create a utopian Caliphate, has its own sociopaths kidnapping and beheading people on cameras and its cadre of careerists and warlords and petty dictators seeking to burnish reputations and/or maintain power by appealing to that movement when convenient. I think we did have to go after the Taliban and bin Laden and take them out, even though ironically they may not have been much of anything without our support in the 1980s. But those people actually attacked us.

There's going to be hell to pay when our real enemies obtain the drone technology. And they will eventually. That's when I move to Pittburgh. Or Canada.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by jacob »

Chad wrote:
jacob wrote: Strategic moves and major battles go almost uncovered in schools.
(I never heard of the Battle of the Bulge until I moved to the US.)
This is kind of fascinating. We also have to take into account that the US really hadn't taken the mantle "Team America World Police" at that time. I'm not sure we thought we had, or could have had, much of any influence on any European countries one way or the other, concerning the rise of Hitler. Thus, we probably wrote our history based on that.
This is what I mean when I say that Americans have no direct or cultural experience with this sort of thing. The most recent US history has to do with its rise to world power and winning wars (Vietnam being the exception and that has left an indelible impression of US psyche). In particular, successful interventions and expanding bases, de facto colonies, in other countries.

Conversely, recent European history has been one of declining empire. Giving up bases and land in former colonies; as well as losing wars; and dealing with dictators. It's almost the exact opposite experience.
Chad wrote:
jacob wrote: In conclusion: Since people will always be people(*), we need to be real careful about what kind of institutional tools we give them.
Completely agree, which is why I'm so surprised everyone has forgotten about McCarthy, J. Edgar, etc. with the whole NSA thing.
[/quote]
Again, Europeans haven't. (I just mention Europeans because I don't have knowledge of the entire world). Speaking of WWII, when American's say "never forget", they're likely thinking of Pearl Harbor. Also 9/11. When Europeans say never forget, they're thinking of the holocaust. See the difference? Furthermore, much of this was followed by the iron curtain and what went on behind it---more of the same---such as this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
(look particularly at Operations and consider what's possible with modern information technology).

So my thesis is that Americans sees technology and institutions for how they can be used to "restore peace and order to the galaxy" and make, at least, Americans safer and see flag-waving and supporting the troops as a way of "standing united". Europeans tend to see how such institutions can be turned against them and flag-waving, troop worship, and uniting around nationalism as the preliminaries to something really bad.

Despite growing up in western Europe and not having experienced any of this directly, my upbringing/education made me quite concerned from what I saw (flags, guns in the airports, everybody wearing troop stickers, having mission accomplished parades and every 20 year old being a jingoist) when I visited the US in 2003, because I've heard tons about that and nothing associated with anything good. It's gotten a lot better since then. It's said that Obama won the Nobel prize for not being Bush. I believe that. People learned some quick "lessons in empire". That it's not as easy as such.

History repeats/rhyme and those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it. Of course it repeats because people are everywhere the same. The problem is that cultures learn by doing, unfortunately. Fortunately, the US [culture] has something that most other countries lack, namely a great faith in the constitution which also happens to be written to prevent exactly such problems.---Of concentrating too much power and covering government up in secrecy. I know of no other country where its people even care what their constitution says. However, constitutions seem to be written to prevent the problems of the past. The US constitution in particular was written to prevent the problems of Europe.

So that and the fact the US in general is pretty quick to correct its mistakes gives me hope.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by vivacious »

Chad wrote: Based on historical precedent, no the new President(s) would not give back any power. This is an issue we will have to tackle as a country, at some point, or there will be issues.

Thanks for responding.

Though Biden is not as powerful as Cheney and gave back some of the power Cheney consolidated. But yes generally subsequent administrations take more power and go beyond what the constitution says they can do.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by jacob »

http://archive.is/lFUG ... This is not a spoof. While the site is no longer up, it was real. I first saw it back in the early 2000s. It's pretty much a recipe for empire. If you consider who signed it, it is clear that it foretold US policy over the next ten years.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by vivacious »

jacob wrote: The issue is not that the US is the current empire but that the US (that is, the American people) has no history of being an empire. The US is in a way young and its population is terribly naive. How else can ordinary citizens fall for slogans like "they hate our freedoms?" Europe has [had] that experience for hundreds of years already. Consider what the general message of World War II has been taught to Americans vis-a-vis Europeans. The American lesson is that the US used its mighty military power to take out evil Hitler and win the war. For details, see the History Channel. War was something that happened "over there" and the US won it.

...

The focus is two-fold: First, the tools and institutions that made it possible. Second, ordinary citizens who turned a blind eye in the name of "following orders, doing my job, wasn't me, I don't know anyone personally affected, it's just "that other demographic group" which everybody hates anyway, I signed a contract, I'm just a small cog in the machine, I know but what can one person do, I'm not directly responsible, it's my country, I got too much to lose,...".

The last part is spot on. That's the nature of the world. It's also an aspect of careerism. Rescinding all responsibility in the name of "doing one's job" etc.

Not sure about the first part though. America has been an empire for a long time. See the Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, involvement in Latin America, involvement in Russia before WWII, Haiti, Florida, etc.


Chad wrote: This is kind of fascinating. We also have to take into account that the US really hadn't taken the mantle "Team America World Police" at that time. I'm not sure we thought we had, or could have had, much of any influence on any European countries one way or the other, concerning the rise of Hitler. Thus, we probably wrote our history based on that.

I don't think that's true at all. America very much propped Hitler up economically and there was extreme right wing dissent against possible involvement in the war economically or militarily. America could have stopped economic trade much earlier on.
Last edited by vivacious on Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BC #4: Dirty Wars - No, it's not porn with a war them

Post by Chad »

Yeah, I'm not talking about being critical of the obvious criminals. I'm suggesting that maybe some criticism of soldiers who followed obviously questionable, but not criminal orders, would create the real possibility of soldiers refusing on principle. This might encourage commanders to make sure the mission matters. I don't actually think this is possible or the correct way to go, it's more of mental exercise. Thanks for responding to it.

There is definitely a false idea that we can be extremely surgical with our current tech. While we can compared to previous wars, it doesn't mean only the person we want dead is killed. Most people don't really understand how these weapons are targeted, what stealth really means, etc.

Concerning the US creating some of our problems with our invasive worldwide military presence...I agree. The question would then be what would happen if we pulled all of these assets back? I would agree we do go too far, but I wouldn't advocate isolation (not saying you are).

I do agree that the first Gulf War was a much better political situation and a good example for the future.

I don't give Powell any credit for leaving when he did. He knew Iraq was bullshit before we even put a few carrier battle groups outside the Gulf. We, as citizens, actually seemed to do the right thing supporting his career. Unfortunately, he failed everyone.

Current drone tech won't do anyone else any good. It's really only viable when you completely control the skies, which would be impossible against us.

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