Finding sustainable happiness

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SustainableHappiness
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:39 pm

Finding sustainable happiness

Post by SustainableHappiness »

Hello ERE-ers (that is a lot of er)

Hopped over here from the MMM forum, loved the conversation there, already challenged and enthralled with the conversation here.

Mid-20s Corporate Ladder Riser
Working in CPG (Consumer Packaged Goods), i.e. the anti-thesis to ERE and MMM. Yes, I am aware of this and it is partially the reason for my pursuit of ER. I'll likely start off with a blog post on the ethical viability of working in Consumer Packaged Goods, or any environmentally or human damaging industry.
Searching for and sometimes finding or glimpsing sustainable happiness (if it's sometimes is it sustainable? goooooood question).

Goal is to go on a 1 year mini-retirement at >500K invested assets (~3 Years) between DW and I around the same time as having our first child. Depending on how that goes will decide whether or not to return to full-time work based on side hustle viability and how I feel after becoming a parent (will I want more buffer, or will I want more time reading the entire Redwall and Harry Potter series to the babes?)

Keep on rockin'.

sky
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by sky »

How do you define happiness?

SustainableHappiness
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Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by SustainableHappiness »

Happiness to me is having the presence of mind to live with ease moment to moment through the inevitable daily ups and downs. Some might call it contentment or living a mindful life (the "flow" concept comes to mind), both of which I agree with, but Sustainable Happiness just has a certain ring to it that makes me want to write a book with that title.

sky
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:20 am

Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by sky »

Thanks, I was curious, because the definition of happiness is a key concept in greek philosophy. Some define it as living a virtuous life, some as following pleasure, some as elimination of desire and some as tranquility.

Did
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by Did »

Welcome.

I'm more of a shallow sunshine, beer and sexual gratification type of guy when it comes to happiness.

But living with ease sounds good too.

SustainableHappiness
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:39 pm

Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by SustainableHappiness »

Did wrote:Welcome.

I'm more of a shallow sunshine, beer and sexual gratification type of guy when it comes to happiness.

But living with ease sounds good too.
Those sound like an excellent afternoon! But consuming them in life-sized quantities may be unsustainable for health and balance reasons? Hence my quandary and the crucial elusive sustainable aspect.

Dragline
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by Dragline »

Yes, I agree -- not all methods of achieving "happiness" are necessarily sustainable or healthy. Here, I posted this in another thread last week but it goes with this topic:

"[A]fter satisfying basic needs, human beings always seem to need or look for something transcendent, or making themselves part of a greater whole, to be really satisfied with their lives. I was trying to list all of the various methods, starting from those we share with other animals/primates and moving up the cultural complexity scale.

So at the most primitive level, we are talking about acts of sex and violence (conquest), other basic physical acts that release endorphins and other happy hormones, parenting, and participation in crowds or other herding/group behaviors.

Then in no particular order you have things like meditation/prayer/communing with nature, drugs, creative pursuits (like those listed above), activities that put you in Csikszentmihalyi "flow state" which could be physical or mental or both, forming and maintaining relationships with other people or animals (especially those activities that mirror parenting or care-giving), various religious practices, consumptive behaviors (like collecting and just buying shit), and now probably some futuristic things involving new technologies that I haven't even heard of yet.

I think human beings are wired such that they need to engage in one or more of the foregoing -- and they usually are combined -- to actually achieve a mental state of well-being; otherwise, they will experience a general dissatisfaction or ennui with their lives that is all too common. The main trick is to avoid the multitudinous negative aspects that are associated with many of the foregoing, especially addictions. Note especially that some, like sex, drugs and consumptive behaviors, only get you to that state for limited amounts of time before they wear off."

**********************************************

I think as a practical matter, after satisfying basic needs, you are going to be looking at or for some combination of the activities listed above, which may change over time, but generally need to be approached in moderation to be "sustainable". I think if you don't make an effort to participate in some of these things, you will find yourself kind of bored and unfulfilled. But its a pretty big menu.

Esau
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by Esau »

Talk about happiness, for me, it's self-sufficient. You don't have to rely on other people or circumstances.

One of my favorite quote that help me: "When I get sad I stop being sad and be awesome instead!"

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc01V_mygzg

BRUTE
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by BRUTE »

brute believes that beyond basic survival needs and a little creature comfort, humans are biologically wired for change. especially change they perceive as progress of some kind. higher, faster, better, stronger, more, richer, fitter, thinner. running on the hamster wheel. "flow".

it seems different humans find different types of hamster wheels that make them happy.

problems arise when a human's hamster wheel stops working for whatever reasons. thus, another wheel must be found, or soon, discomfort will settle in. some hamster wheels are prone to break, like heroin addiction. happiness or sure, but not so sustainable.

for human happiness, it could be argued that the maximum definition of happiness is "the rest of a human's life". thus each human would do well to find one or several hamster wheels that, at least in combination, will enable the human to run and make "progress" until death.

IlliniDave
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by IlliniDave »

I differentiate between 'having fun' and 'happiness'. Happiness I see as a largely internal quality that flows out from the person. Fun is most often derived in part or wholly from external sources and on balance flows towards the person. I've had an ongoing discussion about this with a certain friend of mine that's gone on for several years. She disagrees with me and largely equates happiness with having fun. I don't know which of us is more correct in an absolute sense.

I can't say that I have sustained, uninterrupted happiness, but I've learned to have a underlying bias that lies on the happy side of the spectrum. So I tend to use the term contentment rather than happiness to avoid confusion for those who use happiness and having fun interchangeably. I think you're on the right track pursuing it from sort of a Zen angle. For me 'mindfulness' was the term that solidified things (hence the title of my journal here). It's difficult to be consistent in mindfulness/flow, at least it is for me, but I improve gradually with time. Good luck!

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fiby41
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by fiby41 »

Timeframe and cost/tradeoff can be used to check if happiness inducing activity is sustainable.

Short term pleasure/fun+Long term regret/cost

Short term pleasure/fun+Short term regret/cost

Long term pleasure/fun+Long term regret/cost

Long term pleasure/fun+Short term regret/cost

SustainableHappiness
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by SustainableHappiness »

Since this thread is flowing a little, I'll take the time to ask a question based on your responses.

I am fairly content with my current hamster wheel and I by no means equate money with happiness, unless approached from the FI = Freedom, Freedom = more opportunities to engage in the activities noted by Dragline below. However this means I can't avoid the logical conclusion that becoming FI/ERE-ing (or semi-retiring) will enable me to be undeniably MORE sustainably happy. This conclusion is both worrisome and awesome, worrisome because it is like my wife going through 4 years of undergrad only to find out she despises her 18 y/o self's dream job (although the schooling was fine). Awesome because it is like the opening of a 20-60 hour per week window of opportunity to self develop on skills other than those learned through office analytics, which in my current state I don't think I can truly comprehend

I realize the worrisome, like most worries is not worth worrying about until the journey takes us into a place where it can be properly faced, but this leads to my question, can you give some wisdom or anecdotal evidence of FI leading to sustainable happiness? This is in the spirit of both curiosity and an underlying need for choice validation from an external source (i.e. YOU GUYS/GALS!).
Dragline wrote: the most primitive level, we are talking about acts of sex and violence (conquest), other basic physical acts that release endorphins and other happy hormones, parenting, and participation in crowds or other herding/group behaviors.

Then in no particular order you have things like meditation/prayer/communing with nature, drugs, creative pursuits (like those listed above), activities that put you in Csikszentmihalyi "flow state" which could be physical or mental or both, forming and maintaining relationships with other people or animals (especially those activities that mirror parenting or care-giving), various religious practices, consumptive behaviors (like collecting and just buying shit), and now probably some futuristic things involving new technologies that I haven't even heard of yet.
Keep on rockin'.

BRUTE
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by BRUTE »

brute asked a similar question recently and basically got the answer "FI won't make brute happy or fulfilled, happiness come from within!".

brute thinks of FI more of a floor to sustained happiness. a human who's FI will likely never fall back to the poverty/starvation/shelterless level of unhappiness. above that, it doesn't guarantee or do much. maybe consider it a platform.

brute would also like to point out that while it's fun to reject "equating money with happiness", equating anything else with happiness has pretty much the same effect and is as arbitrary. just because a hamster wheel is called "friend & family" or "ecological activism" doesn't make it not a hamster wheel. what makes these more sustainable (and therefore seemingly more valid) for some humans is the constant uphill struggle, making sure that humans rarely "outrun" these hamster wheels.

SustainableHappiness
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by SustainableHappiness »

That idea of FI as a floor for sustainable happiness and the rest is up to you is great. I will keep that brute.

Imagine what outrunning the "friend & family" hamster wheel?? What would that look like? I can imagine the click-bait.

"Man/Woman has happy family and relationships of 6 kids, 100 regular social connections, and general relationship satisfaction...You wouldn't believe what happened next"

Dragline
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by Dragline »

BRUTE wrote: brute thinks of FI more of a floor to sustained happiness. a human who's FI will likely never fall back to the poverty/starvation/shelterless level of unhappiness. above that, it doesn't guarantee or do much. maybe consider it a platform.
Yeah, I agree with that.

The other thing about happiness/fulfillment I think is that you can't consciously "know" what will make you happy just by sitting around thinking about it, wishing it, trying to predict it, or taking career compatibility quizzes or whatever, because happiness comes fundamentally from the unconscious self. SH's wife's realization is an example of that -- rationally, she thought she knew what would be fulfilling, but it wasn't. Sometimes you might guess right, but often you won't. Or you may change over time.

It's thus an experiential/experimental journey -- you actually have to go out and do some of those things in that big list I mentioned, probably the more the better and even the ones that don't seem to make any sense, and then rely on your own personal feedback (as in "how did that make me subjectively feel after-the-fact") to see what works for you.

And if it doesn't work out, forgive yourself for being mistaken and move on. Avoid that "foolish consistency" of the rational self . . .

BRUTE
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Re: Finding sustainable happiness

Post by BRUTE »

SustainableHappiness wrote:Imagine what outrunning the "friend & family" hamster wheel?? What would that look like?
hard to imagine. this particular wheel is more likely to break than to be outrun, brute thinks.

then again, maybe a question of definition. if brute defines "outrunning a particular hamster wheel" as going forward on it until it loses its happiness-inducing traits, maybe that's what many humans experience as their midlife crisis? discovering 20 years into a marriage that humans don't care about each other? or is that "broken"?

metaphors.

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