Hello from Listmaker! 20F US

[Listmaker]

Hello everyone, I've decided to come out of the lurking shadows. I'm Listmaker, a 20 year old lady from the east coast. Currently living with my parents and attending a community college. I'll be graduating with an associates degree in business soon. I'm hoping I don't have to get a bachelor's degree to get a decent job.

Right now I attend college full time and work part time in a minimum wage retail job. I had to take out student loans for college because my parents make too much for me to get financial aid (besides federal student loans).

I'm looking for more inspiration from here because although I am very good at saving money, I do spend more then I should on "fun". Plus I'm single so dating is an issue on my mind.

[Riggerjack]

Well, as Jacob said in the blog, the fastest way to ERE would be a skilled labor job. No detour for college, move directly to paydays, and by the time you would have graduated, you have years of experience and raises.

Mind you, without college, luck and extreme effort, there is a low ceiling on wages...

But for fastest ERE, it's hard to beat toll booth operator/records clerk/electrician, etc. Earn while you learn, and start saving immediately.

[vexed87]

Yep, if I could do it all over again I would have gone into a skilled labour career, mind you, my student loan was minimal and I worked all the way through whilst living with parents so I could still have saved a sizeable chunk if I had know about ERE back then.

I would think long and hard about whether getting into loads of debt to work a white collar salaried job is really worth it in the long run.

[Listmaker]

Thanks for the responses! Perhaps I should explain my finances in more detail. I will have 12.5k in student loans at about 4.25% interest when I graduate. I am not really interested in going into any kind of trade. The records clerk that Riggerjack mentioned, that would be a possibility.

Currently my only expenses (besides college stuff) are car insurance $46, cell phone $44, and gym membership $20. I typically spend about $100 a month in entertainment/fun. I am going to eliminate the gym membership soon. As far as income I have three main sources. All of my income is listed after taxes. Part time retail job $400, Freelance work $500, and $1400 (sort of a gift/support). Total income after tax: $2300. I know my parents are cool with me living with them until I'm at least 25 to pay off student loans and save up for a house.

Right now I'm just looking for a full time job in an office. I'm hoping to get in with the state government. If not, working as a bank teller, general office person, or perhaps even working in a call center are all on the table. I'm just hoping to break 30k in my full time job by 24. No matter what my full time job is, I'll probably continue with the freelancing and part time retail job. I expect the $1400 to continue for at least another 6 months but it could continue for up to two years.

I suppose I should also mention that I currently have 8k saved in my credit union and I have 5.5k in an Roth ira with vanguard. Thoughts?

[George the original one]

$12.5k in student loans costing 4.25% yet you have $8k savings likely earning <0.5%? Unless you're going to use that $8k within the upcoming year, you'd do better to pay down the student loan.

Check into prepaid cell plans... it's easy to knock that $44/mo figure down to as little as $6/mo (voice only) or $12/mo (some texting, occasional internet).

Are your other car expenses (fuel, maintenance) paid for by someone else? Or are you keeping car insurance because you're using parents' car?

[JL13]

+1 on paying off student loans

+1 Republic Wireless or prepaid phone is much cheaper.

+1 other car expenses. Depreciation, repairs, washing/waxing, opportunity cost are probably quadruple the insurance figure.

[Listmaker]

I am holding the 8k as an emergency fund for now and I'd actually like to get up to 12k. The majority of my student loans are subsidized for now because I'm in college. I believe the first payment is only due in February of next year. I was not planning on making any payments until then.

As far as other car expenses, yes they are paid for by someone else. I own my own car and it's an old American piece of crap but it gets me where I need to go. I bought it for 3k and I've had it for a little over a year. I am hoping it will last another 2 years. I also have my car insurance policy by myself. I used to have a policy with geico but it was $150 a month just for liability insurance because I am a newer driver and I'm 20. I switched to a car insurance company that charges per mile driven and that is working out well because I don't drive very far compared to the average American.

I know this will be a bit controversial on this website (I'm more of an MMM person, but I like the feeling of a tight knit community here) but I am happy with my cellphone provider. I have AT&T's GoPhone plan, which is prepaid.

With all of that aside, do my career plans look okay? Is there some other type of office work that pays higher that I am not aware of?

[JL13]

Without a specific skill, pay for office work (or any work) is more based on luck and knowing the right people. I've worked at offices where two people with the same job title will have completely different salaries. For example one secretary who makes $40k and another who makes $100k.

I don't do any meaningful work in my office but I make around $75k. There are definitely people here who work harder than I do and maybe even have better skills that make only $30k. It's all luck, unfortunately. Institutions can be really, really ridiculous.

[George the original one]

> Is there some other type of office work that pays higher that I am not aware of?

Commission sales. Real estate, insurance, corporate sales.

The problem with office work in a bank or brokerage or the government is that there can be restrictions on investments.

In government, for example, if your career is good enough to put you at a level where you can procure things, then you have to avoid investing directly in companies that you are likely to deal with. In other words, you have to avoid investing in the very companies that you most likely understand best.

[JL13]

Yes sales is probably the quickest way to make real money if you have the personality for it. My mom went from homemaker to furniture sales and made $70k her first year.

[Listmaker]

I'm not a super outgoing person, I don't think sales is for me. I did manage to pull off being a server in a fancy restaurant for about 7 months. I could always go back to that if there was nothing else I could do. With tips I was making an average of $26 an hour for dinner shifts. The customers were always terrible and demanding.

I have thought about being a real estate agent but I feel like it would be a big investment. I would need a new car, fancier clothes, etc. I have also thought about working for an insurance company but it looks like most of them want someone with a four year degree.

[JL13]

To skip the degree and start making money then:

Extrovert = sales
Introvert = programming

?

[George the original one]

> The customers were always terrible and demanding.

When you work in an office, you have "customers". They will also likely be terrible and demanding, so learn how to cope.

Insurance & real estate customers are a notch better than restaurant customers. Retail and food service and hospitality are the bottom of the sales ladders.

Corporate sales is probably not like what you think it is. Typically it involves coordinating a technical representative meeting with the customer, so that the techie isn't saying the wrong things and the customer is getting the answers they need. Home office rewards you well when a sale is made and you get to pull the strings of the techie (just ask any of us who have been on the tech side how we feel about the marketing department, LOL!).

Hmm, I think we also left out project management. Get the stupid certification in 6-12 months and right now you'll be earning $60k-75k entry level. No, you don't need to know the technical stuff (though it helps), but you do need to be able to make plans and be highly organized.

[Chris]

Nice job on banking > $13k. I agree keeping an emergency fund is a good idea.

What is your freelance gig?

Why do you want to avoid a bachelor's degree? Solely for cost reasons?

[inchicago]

> The customers were always terrible and demanding.

When you work in an office, you have "customers". They will also likely be terrible and demanding, so learn how to cope.

This is beyond true. I just got yelled at on Friday by a "customer" because apparently I should have turned his project overnight although this was never specified. Sorry buddy, I have 300 other people I have to deal with. Not just you.

>Hmm, I think we also left out project management. Get the stupid certification in 6-12 months and right now you'll be earning $60k-75k entry level. No, you don't need to know the technical stuff (though it helps), but you do need to be able to make plans and be highly organized.

As far as the project management thing goes. Not true in my experience. I have been certified for three years and I have not had one positive reply to my job applications. I tried, got a mentor, networked, and even joined the local PMI chapter here in Chicago. No luck. I will agree that certifications are somewhat stupid. They are a made up program which "volunteers" put together in order to make whatever association holds them, money. They are HUGE money makers and sometimes the sole source of an association's income. Are they necessary? Well, there are arguments on both sides. From what I've seem, they aren't, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'd rather look at someone's experience and skill. Not that you could pass a test, which is mostly what college is, anyway.

[plantingourpennies]

To skip the degree and start making money then:

Extrovert = sales
Introvert = programming

?

Corporate sales is probably not like what you think it is. Typically it involves coordinating a technical representative meeting with the customer, so that the techie isn't saying the wrong things and the customer is getting the answers they need. Home office rewards you well when a sale is made and you get to pull the strings of the techie (just ask any of us who have been on the tech side how we feel about the marketing department, LOL!).

I'm considered an introvert but had a very successful "career" in technology business to business (corporate) sales. My path to FI (I'm in year 5):

year 0-Retail sales, cellphones in a kiosk, only job I could find. Probably similar to high-end restaurant, 50k per year
years 1-4 Account management, then business development. Average 104k per year, actually missed my quota in year 4!
years 5-7 Sales Training, 105k per year. Training salespeople is a passion of mine, I may do an extra year before declaring FI.

Managing complex sales is less about having an outgoing personality and more about traits like intelligence, empathy, coachability and skills like business acumen and communication. If you are selling remotely (and many, many organizations sell over the phone), you may never see the customer.

I truly believe that sales, particularly corporate IT sales, is currently one of the quickest paths to FI. Yes, even for "introverts."

[JL13]

@plantingourpennies

Any recommended resources to get started?

[plantingourpennies]

@JL13-I just sent you a PM.

In general I think my path (retail sales-->Entry Level B2B-->Some other role inside the bigger organization) is something that can be replicated pretty easily. The "trick" is that entry level retail sales are always hiring (even during the downturn in 09/10, and many larger organizations view these kinds of roles at stepping stones into their own entry level sales positions. Similarly, I've found that once you're inside a larger organization the skills that you've learned over the past 3-4 years of selling make you very marketable for internal transitions inside the larger company. The performance based nature of sales means that nobody in the entry level retail world cares if you have a degree or not, and the entry level corporate world only cares if you have had success in the retail world.