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Early Retirement Extreme Forums » DIY Skills Questions

1. 

   SF
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 92

   We're wondering about growing vegetables again this year. We have about 300 sq ft of space for an organic garden, and we've done gardening off and on for ten years or so. But when we got serious for a few years, here's what happened:

   Year:

   1. great yield, relatively few bugs
   2. potato beetles found the potatoes and tomatoes, reduced yield
   3. potato beetles found the potatoes and tomatoes, japanese beetles found the beans, reduced yield further
   4. potato beetles found the potatoes and tomatoes, tomato hornworms ate the rest of the tomatoes, japanese beetles found the beans, even smaller yield
   5. all of the above, but wire worms ate the root crops too, HUGE tomato hornworms at the tomatoes, vine borers killed the squash, and the chipmunks decided to take some for themselves too

   You get the idea. The pests were winning. I handpicked the bugs, and tried some natural-ish techniques (soapy water, for instance). We did crop rotation. We planted Nasturtiums. It didn't really make a dent in the onslaught.

   Despite all this, we did get something from the garden, but we certainly wouldn't be self sufficient.

   My takeaway from this is that we'd probably need to use pesticides to get a good yield.

   Has anyone had good luck with a garden, year after year?

   Posted 2 years ago #
2. 

   Surio
   

   Sorcerer
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 601

   I'm on the same boat. But whenever I am dismayed at the loss, DW (bless her!) points out, we've accumulated more good karma by feeding God's other creatures than ourselves. I'm reading up on permaculture and Fukuoka who advocate planting techniques of interspersing other plants that feed/repel the "pests" (sorry, they are not, but that's how they are labelled) and leave the yield untouched. It is in Preliminary Literature survey stage.

   Jacob is right. It requires the same time and effort that one puts into a PhD!

   FWIW, most Indian organic farmers I know swear by this preparation. Many farming magazines have done independent trials and now swear by it. Of course, mainstream media don't get paid to run these stories, so it is always "this pesticide provided to this farmer with this loan/this grant/this subsidy increased yield by 20%" touted in the media!

   dpilot83 may have a few choice "told you all so!" words for us ;-) :-D

   Posted 2 years ago #
3. 

   George the original one
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 1,939

   My pests are slightly larger: one deer can do an amazing amount of damage with a single visit.

   300 sq ft is not enough area for crop rotation if your rotation consists of the same plants each year. It is, however, small enough to economically use barriers to prevent the plants from being marauded by insects... provided you're not trapping the eggs inside the barriers. See http://www.territorialseed.com/product/1672/s

   300 sq ft is also not large enough for self-sufficiency unless you do a fantastic amount of vertical gardening (I'm sure you were writing in jest... just want to make sure no one is dreaming an impossible dream). 1000-1400 sq ft is the ballpark for 2 people going for self-sufficiency provided they have ample water. If you follow dry-garden methods, then you'll likely need 2x-3x that space.

   Posted 2 years ago #
4. 

   BennKar
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 144

   I don't try growing vegtable, but I do have a number of fruit trees. I will say this past year the bugs all of a sudden got much, much worse. I hate to think about it, but I really think it has to do with the bat fungus that is killing so many of them off. I know I used to be able to see the outlines of bats swooping around the back yard at night, but this past year I didn't see it any more. I don't think thats a coincidence. I never bothered with any pesticides, but this year.... I may reconsider.

   Posted 2 years ago #
5. 

   JeremyS
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Jan '11
   Posts: 34

   Hello SF,

   I agree that 300 sq ft is too small to rotate crops to avoid pests. It is probably NOT too small to rotate crops to renew soil nutrients, however.

   What you could do is grow larger amounts of fewer crops, and switch each year. For example, if you only grow potatoes every 3 or 4 years, it is much less likely that you will encounter beetle problems. Then again, if you neighbour is a potato farmer you will probably have to live with the beetles, regardless.

   Otherwise, you could look at companion planting to reduce the numbers of pests. I have heard (but have not yet tried, although I've been meaning to) that planting flax with potatoes drastically reduces the number of potatoe beetles. It has something to do with the colour matching of flax flowers to potatoe flowers, which confuses the little bug(ger)s.

   Yet another potato trick is to fall plant them so they get a really early spring start and can be harvested before the beetles gather steam. Alternatively, you can late start them (after the beetle season) and harvest late. I have had good luck with late starts, but not with early starts.

   Lastly, there are many natural "pesticides" that you can try without going for the nasty chemicals: many people swear by spraying with a solution of tobacco-infused water (and tobacco plants are very easy to grow yourself).

   And finally, a disclaimer: I live in Northern Ontario (about a zone 3b for gardening) and some of my timing strategies rely heavily on seasonal frosts and insect emergence which might not be at all similar to yours.

   Posted 2 years ago #
6. 

   HSpencer
   

   Master
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 770

   Gardening in itself is an annual gamble. I have had very good success at doing it however. On the potatoes, I have stopped growing them, mainly because they are so cheap to buy at the store, and they take up too much of my garden real estate.
   I usually plant around 25 - 30 tomato plants, as that is something we want a lot of. I lost about 10 plants last year to what is called tomato bottom rot. I found this is quickly cured by the application of lime to the soil. In fact I tiller in about 250 lbs of lime prior to any planting. We grow tomatoes, squash, lettuce, radishes, corn, bell peppers, hot peppers of several types, okra, and speckled butter beans on a fence.
   Last year I had trouble with insects, but it did not seem more than usual. I use a pump up sprayer, and add a cup of dishwashing soap to 2 gallons of water. I spray the plants at least once a week. For stubborn problems with bugs, I use a sprinkling of @Seven Dust around the base of the plants, and it usually works, or the plant is lost eventually.
   I also have the same problem with deer as George Original. The deer are getting into the garden in the middle of the night, and there is not much you can do about them. I tried a deer feeder in another part of the property, but we decided it only served to attract more of them. I see their footprints here winter and summer, and wife loves them, so there is no turning them away on her part.
   My neighbor claims he has good pest control by planting sunflowers in the very back of his garden. He claims the sunflowers attract the pests away from the other plants. I would not go to the bank on that however.
   There is a lot of stuff on the internet about natural pest control, and pesticides as well. I would consult my local Farmer's Co-op manager, as they are usually up to the latest on current problems.

   Posted 2 years ago #
7. 

   mikeBOS
   

   Master
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 554

   I can't be the only one who clicked on this thread expecting an entirely different topic... :-)

   Posted 2 years ago #
8. 

   KevinW
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 577

   Last year I did a trial run of square foot gardening in a small 2x3 = 6 sq ft raised bed. The idea of square foot gardening ( http://www.squarefootgardening.com/ ) is that you build a raised bed with ideal soil and plant in very high concentrations. That way the plants can outcompete pests and weeds and the small size allows you to focus your labor. Supposedly a 4x8 = 64 sq ft bed is enough for vegetable self-sufficiency for one adult.

   The trial run worked as advertised. I am in the process of switching the 2x3 bed over to a kitchen herb garden and building full size bed(s) on my patio. My first goal is tomato self-sufficiency and if that works I'll branch out.

   So far the square foot approach is working well for me, but I don't have multiple years of experience as the OP asked for.

   Posted 2 years ago #
9. 

   Freedom_2018
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 175

   @ mikeBOS..ha..ha..I initially read the title as "Grow a Pair"..maybe there should be a thread on that too :-)..though I woudl have to say that those already committed to an ERE type scenario are well on their way...

   Posted 2 years ago #
10. 

    HSpencer
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 770

    Yikes!

    http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Produce-prices-skyrocket-overnight-115985429.html

    Posted 2 years ago #
11. 

    Piper
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 138

    I've decided to eat the weeds in my garden instead. Turns out some of the most prolific ones are quite edible and delicious. My garden is just a bookcase I found on the street turned into a roof-top planter box. I've got herbs in there now and sometimes volunteer things like tomatoes and squash pop up from the compost. I don't have much of a green thumb.

    Posted 2 years ago #
12. 

    dpilot83
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 41

    @ Surio

    I haven't been on here as much lately so I'm a little slow to the party. However, I do not intend any "I told you so" comments.

    Since my last thread on here I have learned quite a bit. I do not know how to implement the things that I have learned in to a large scale operation like the one I have.

    I do believe there is a decent chance that sustainable agriculture is more than just a pipe dream.

    I believe that the food production problem cannot be solved by farmers. Farmers are good at producing food with limited labor resources. Low labor inputs and high productive capacity are not synonymous with sustainable agriculture.

    The only people who can solve the food production problem are the people who are not farmers. If you all go out and buy a couple acres of land and start earning your PhD in sustainable agriculture, the need for commercial agriculture will go away.

    The unfortunate part is getting the masses to become interested on a personal level in sustainable agriculture is indeed a pipe dream. It will only happen when it is necessary to survive. Then it will be too late to learn. Therefore, many will not survive.

    Developing a personal interest in sustainable agriculture means a reduction in quality of life (as it is defined by the majority, including myself). People will not accept a reduction in quality of life unless it is forced upon them.

    Posted 2 years ago #
13. 

    DanielZ
    

    Novice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 12

    I just finished my second year of growing some of my own food. The first year i didn't get much out of it because of the limited space, but i have been expanding it since, which is a lot of work because when our house was build they apparently dumped some soil on top of a mountain of stones, so it takes a lot of time to excavate and move all those stones. Last year we did get a few meals worth of food, but this year the garden should be at least twice as large and really make some impact on what needs to be bought in the store during the growing season. I have't had any problems with pests thus far, except for slugs, probably because it gets quite cold here during the winter.

    I will move out this summer, so I won't get to eat most of the produce, but there is a permaculture community garden near the place i'm going to live, so there will be an opportunity to get some fresh food there too.
    ¨
    dplot83, I also think today's population of the 'developed' world won't voluntarily move toward a more sustainable way of living, probably because they don't see the benefits. About the only thing that has to be given up is possessions, but people don't understand that most possessions only lock them up and limit their freedom, and that the best things in life are free (and don't harm other living beings).

    Posted 2 years ago #
14. 

    SF
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 92

    From what I've read, some other gardeners have had the same problem. There's some threads on Gardenweb.com. And then there's the story in the $64 Tomato. Our experience roughly parallel the author's, but at a smaller scale, and we haven't resorted to pesticides.

    It's just tough to fight the bugs, and harvest a full crop. I wonder if something was different back when Thomas Jefferson was growing crops?

    Maybe the solution is, as Surio says, to assume you are going to lose some.

    We've tried some of the other suggestions, without luck. It might just be that there are too many farms nearby, each of which attracts bugs to the area. Fortunately, the deer seem to be drawn to the farms as well, which may be why we don't also have deer problems.

    But I'm not sure I want to include organic gardening in my ERE network graph, or perhaps it should be weighted as a hobby that may sometimes provide food.

    Posted 2 years ago #
15. 

    Surio
    

    Sorcerer
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 601

    @dpilot,
    Actually, you gave me some sense of hope in our previous discussion that farmers like you were very comfortable with the scale of those operations and would be able to re-calibrate and re-tool if the circumstances demanded it. Reading your views makes me even more concerned! ERE forum, battle stations! Food is definitely a problem. I know, it has been an issue for awhile here in India for us as well!!

    @all,
    FYI, John Michael Greer who blogs at Archdruid report about some of the immediate issues facing America runs another forum called Green Wizards project, where all backyard gardeners (he calls it extensive farming as opposed to intensive as practiced today). Very very North American in its scope, so it is not very relevant for me living in India, but you may find more information there as opposed to here. Just a thought. And if something is relevant, please do post it here, so the rest may benefit :-)

    Posted 2 years ago #
16. 

    Marius
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 258

    I was surprised to discover that Uncle Same actually used to encourage people to grow their own food to save money. :-)
    

    Large printable version:
    http://www.atomicantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/uncle-sam-says-garden.jpg

    More info:
    http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/00653180/

    Posted 2 years ago #
17. 

    George the original one
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,939

    That's a WWI poster. Similar posters were used during WWII, but with more of a war effort theme ("Plant a Victory Garden").

    Posted 2 years ago #
18. 

    S
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 288

    I started my summer planting today. I'm excited to get a chance to garden again, but it could be a challenge learning a new climate. With only $8 worth of seeds almost any harvest should make it worthwhile.

    Posted 2 years ago #
19. 

    learning
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: May '11
    Posts: 72

    An alternative to the garden or grocery store decision is to buy from produce distributors who sell to restaurants and caterers. I found their prices on tomatoes and onions to be 80% cheaper than Wal-Mart (yes, WM was 5x more expensive for these 2 items). These were the best bargains. Other items varied in price right up to the retail price on some items. You have to shop item-by-item. You would have to buy in quantity so organizing a group of friends would be necessary, but still much less work than gardening and much less $ than grocery stores.

    Has anybody else tried this?

    Posted 2 years ago #
20. 

    M
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 164

    @learning - this is probably a dumb question, but how exactly do you find produce distributors to buy from?

    Posted 2 years ago #
21. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 918

    A close friend of mine is having luck with organic commercial production year after year. He says that if you don't give back to land what you took from it, the plants will grow weaker and attract much more pests. Plants have their own defenses against predator, which they loose if they are weak. He spends quite an amount of money putting cow manure, bones powder, humus, and some other kinds of organic matter.

    Also, some kinds of products are very land-depleting, like tomatoes and potatoes. If you plant in fertile land, you have success in the first year, but not in the others. The same friend of mine told me to never believe if someone tells me that some tomato is organic. He says it's very hard to grow organic tomatoes.

    Posted 2 years ago #
22. 

    EMJ
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 171

    @bigato
    I suggest you (and your friend) look into the organic certification process and standards before deciding about the credibility of growers.

    I know several organic growers - they grow excellent tomatoes commercially, I have grown organic tomatoes in my home garden as well.

    Posted 2 years ago #
23. 

    learning
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: May '11
    Posts: 72

    @M - no, that's a good question. Here, I asked some friends who knew where a meat distributor was, then we went there and asked the meat distributor where the produce distributors are. You could also try web searching, asking somebody who works for a restaurant, asking a caterer.

    Posted 2 years ago #
24. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 918

    EMJ, that friend of mine was certified organic. But he spent so much money on that and get so little return. Because most of the people here don't want to pay higher for the organic. And the most of the people here that really cares about organic don't care much about the certification. As we are in a small place, people come over to see in person how he deals with his crops. We also know about people that are still certified and aren't fully organic in their practices. But the inspector comes once in a while, and he can't see or test everything. Because of all of that, he gave up certification this year. And I gave up to believe in certification as I think it's mostly a kind of mafia.

    Sorry for the rant, I'm not trying to say that you can't grow organic tomatoes. If you are saying that you get some from your garden, I have no reason to doubt it. In fact I was targeting the certification process and not the tomatoes. I also think it's possible. I growed some (very little) in my backyard garden last year. I just mean that, growing year after year, it's harder to grow organic tomatoes than say, organic lettuce. But that probably is because we should study more.

    Just out of curiosity, how many years in a row did you get organic tomatoes from the same land? How did you take care of the soil?

    Posted 2 years ago #
25. 

    methix
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 37

    Tomatoes are my main garden plant. Roughly half my backyard has been turned into garden. Last year I planted 36 tomato plants. As HSpencer mentioned, lime really helps if you get bottom rot.I also compost everything and put it back into the garden. This year I covered the tomato patch with about 3-4 inches of compost. This coming weekend I'll plant nursery bought plants and lay out the soaker hoses between them all. In a couple weeks when the plants are established, I'll put down a layer of leaf mulch over top the tomato bed. This will reduce evaporation and take care of weeding (the weeds will be choked out and deprived sunlight).

    I've been fairly lucky with insects or the lack of damage from them. One thing I do is to mix flowering plants into my garden. Much has been written in permaculture about balance, I however haven't had to delve to far into it. The jist of it is that if your plants are going to draw pests, you want to balance this by attracting the insects that keep them check. Drawing more pollinators doesn't hurt either. I have a mint patch that I let go to flower that seems to work well. I also plant lots of marigolds. You can save the marigold seeds at the end of the season and you never have to re-buy them. Another odd plant I keep around is an herb called borage. As an herb it was fairly pointless, but it flowers like crazy, the bees love it, and it drops so many seeds it comes back yearly on it's own.

    Two Perennials I'd recommend if they fit your needs would be rhubarb and chives. The rhubarb once established will continue on indefinitely, it'll probably outlive me. As for the chives, you can use them to perk up just about any dish. I dice mine up in quarter inch lengths and freeze in ziploc bags to use year-round.

    If I had more space, I'd experiment a lot more. Something to to do if make it to ER.

    Posted 2 years ago #
26. 

    Piper
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 138

    Maybe you need some ducks.

    Posted 2 years ago #
27. 

    fancyfree
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 20

    so how's your garden going so far this year, SF?

    +1 for what bigato said - feed your soil. are you composting? you said you were rotating crops - are you planting beans each year? i'm thinking about trying to sow a winter cover crop (clover or alfalfa) to feed the soil over winter .. haven't tried that yet.

    comfrey makes a great natural fertilizer. stinky but effective. and you can grow your own.

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. 

    EMJ
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 171

    @bigato
    At least a 4 year rotation

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. 

    SF
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 92

    so how's your garden going so far this year, SF?

    Not bad, thanks for asking. The bug and disease problems don't usually hit until August, so we'll see then.

    We do compost, and we don't plant beans each year. Actually we grow relatively few beans. Clover grows naturally here, but really nothing at all grows during the winter, during which one typically does not see the ground due to several feet of snow. :)

    Posted 1 year ago #

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