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Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Housing Questions

1. 

   jeremymday
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Oct '10
   Posts: 132

   I will attempt to summarize my situation as best I can. Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

   Currently I have been living in a house that I have owned with a friend of mine for over 5 years. We bought the house when we were 25 which makes us now 30 plus in years.

   To me I would say I have a problem inside a problem...

   First off, at this stage in life both of us want to move on and do other things. (i.e. Get married, move to another location, etc.) All things that don't mix well with owning a house together.

   Also, we are seemingly underwater on our mortgage and if we sold we could be looking at a loss in the 10s of thousands of dollars.

   Renting is an option but we would also likely face negative cash flow there too as rents are just below what our mortgage payments plus taxes and insurance are.

   I have wanted out for years, and this whole situation has pretty much ruined our friendship.

   My friend insists on seeing this through to the bitter end and also argues that it is my responsibility to stick with him through this situation.

   My friend envisions us staying here for an undetermined length of time until the house is fixed up and desirable to rent, and it makes financial sense to move.

   I think for my own sanity about selling at a loss, telling him to get a new roommate, or telling him to rent the whole house out (instead of just my room).

   He absolutely refuses to have any other situation then me living there because he sees me moving out as abandoning him, or not living up to my responsibility. Or something else, Im not sure. Whatever the case he wants me to stay and help him take care of things.

   While I understand my responsibilities fully, I think I can manage the house from afar. My best option is to rent the house, and even if we have a negative monthly cash flow I can just make it up by living more cheaply elsewhere.

   For instance I pay $700 a month now. If we had a negative monthly cash flow of $200 and I lived somewhere else for $500 a month then it would simply be a wash.

   Now you might understand where I am coming from. Emotionally and Psychologically, and financially I am having trouble living in this house because I feel like I have given up some opportunities I could have had elsewhere because I am stuck here.

   The worst case scenario is that my roommate will let the house slip into bankruptcy or that he would force me to still pay what I owe instead of getting another roommate to meet the costs. Both our names are on the loan. (For all of you who are thinking about similar financial partnerships I would highly recommend against it even if you think you have it all in writing.)

   The problem is that we never had an exit strategy, and now my friend thinks he can make me live up to a promise that I never made. (we expected to be out of the house in 3 years, yes we were young and naive.)

   So, sorry that was so long, but I could really use some unbiased third party views about this dilemma that I am in...

   Do I stick around for my friend to get his finances in order so that we can exit this housing situation together? This could take years, years Im not willing to wait.

   Do follow my gut and just leave, and hope my roommate doesnt turn completely irrational on me?

   This is my biggest source of unhappiness in life right now.

   My roommate asks me why I can be happy, we have such a good situation.

   Yes, it was good as a bachelor. It was good when this was where I wanted to live.

   But I dont want to live here anymore, and I am very ready for the next stage in life. I want to pursue a more ERE lifestyle, but I cant until this monkey of a house is off my back.

   I thank you in advance for any thoughts, perspective, ideas, or advice you can give!

   Cheers,
   Jeremy

   Posted 2 years ago #
2. 

   HSpencer
   

   Master
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 770

   Your both obligated for the balance on the loan.
   You either both agree to stay, or you both agree to sell.
   What is the possibility of one buying the other out?

   In your part of the deal, you must either pay your 50% on the house, or buy his 50% and do something with the house on your own.
   You must sit down, and frankly discuss the situation. You would make a case why your through with the arrangement. He would make a case why he likes things as they are.
   You are co-borrowers on a legal home loan. Whether you stay or go, your going to be legally and morally obligated for your part of the payments and upkeep. If it was worth it to you enough, move out, retaining your equity, and make your part of the payments. The two of you may agree to rent out your part of the space, and you would be the receiver of the rent money, which you use to sustain your part of the payments.
   You must guard against failure to service the loan.
   What should have been done on purchase, was an agreement for one to buy the other out in the event of a split up.
   This is vastly different, but still an example of what I am saying:
   I bought 4 properties with three other silent partners. In the loan agreement, there is a stated provision that anyone of the four of us wanting out would be bought out by the other three. There is escrow in the loan to accomplish that. The one wanting out is released, paid, and the loan reverts to the other three of us. Yes, this was a bigger and business deal, but your deal could have worked the same way.
   All I could advise you at this point is to talk it out like gentlemen and try and reach a compromise that suits you both.

   Posted 2 years ago #
3. 

   JohnnyH
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 1,393

   First thing I would do is make it pretty and put it on the market... If there is still debate, let a higher price tag decide for you both. You likely won't get it, but you should be ready -especially should a new FTHB credit come around.

   If you don't mind; how many bed/bath, square footage? Would another 1-2 roommates solve any of your problems?

   I am clueless how the partner situation would shakeout should one of you walk away... Very difficult situation. Still, unlike HSpencer, I do not feel this is a moral decision. It is a business decision, if it makes sense to walk away, do so... Seems to me that most people who go on about the moral duty to pay your mortgage are those worried about their property values falling (although I know this is not the case for you, HSpencer ;)
   You might want to consider asking this question on FatWallet Finance. You will get many responses, some of which will be very valuable.

   Last, you haven't come out as poorly as you might have... You've certainly learned, and you've avoided rent for the last 5 years, even if you're underwater.

   Posted 2 years ago #
4. 

   HSpencer
   

   Master
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 770

   @JohnnyH

   I do believe that a moral obligation exists.
   A gentleman's word should be his bond, be it verbal, contracted, or implied. In fact I believe the very fabric of our society depends on it, although our society has shown large cracks over the recent years.
   To walk away from one's legal obligation, except in the case of fraud, is irresponsible to me. I of course was raised this way, and it is such a deep rooted implication with me that I could not exit with no recourse being available to the lender.
   I was always so deeply angered by my tenants who would move out in the middle of the night on or about the 10th of the month, with no explanation whatsoever. That is in effect stealing ten days rent from the landlord. Had they come in, I would have offered five days grace to move out after the 1st of the month, but no, they slide till the tenth and move out at 2:00 am.
   I consider a lack in character to fail to meet one's obligations.

   Posted 2 years ago #
5. 

   Robert Muir
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 280

   I'm with HS on this one myself. Perhaps it's an age thing? But this is why I can't do the LendingClub thing. Seeing someone borrow $20,000 to "consolidate their debts" and then not make a single payment on the new loan boggles my mind.

   We learn a lot of lessons in our lives. Some of them are cheap, some of them are very expensive, and for some of them other people have to pay financially, physically, or with their lives for our mistakes.

   In the end, we're all dead. It's while we're alive that it matters.

   Posted 2 years ago #
6. 

   Robert Muir
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 280

   Jeremy, to your question, I would recommend paying for an hours worth of a real estate attorney's time to see what your options are. Make sure you take all the paperwork with you.

   Posted 2 years ago #
7. 

   JohnnyH
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 1,393

   On an individual and personal level, I wholeheartedly agree... Like stealing from a landlord. Or defrauding on LendingClub loans... Utterly low...

   But, in my mind a mortgage is a little different from your word of honor. The bank holds many advantages, such as confiscating all your principal and house should you be late... I always thought of a mortgage / HELOC in terms of the bank being the buyer, aka real owner... If they didn't want the house, or accept the possibility they would fully own it again, they shouldn't have sold the mortgage, or increased the rate.

   The bank SHOULD have priced in the risk of falling prices and how underwater people should react. They are the financial professional, that in reality are the real owners of the underlying property...

   I'm not sure I feel this way, but I don't think a mortgage agreement with a despicable bailout company is worth ruining your life over... They worked over the Congress and raided the treasury after all.

   I guess I'm unsure because I've never seriously considered such a burdensome mortgage. Bottom line, I do agree, do not take on agreements unless you intend to fulfil the contract... But at some point, like in a failing business, you just have to throw in the towel.

   Posted 2 years ago #
8. 

   Surio
   

   Sorcerer
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 601

   Sorry about your plight, I can see it is not the pleasantest of situations to be in. However, I go with Spence and Muir's point of view (POV) myself. A person's word is his honour. And incidentally, it so happens that in this case the commitment pertains to a house. It may not be an age thing as much as it may be an upbringing thing, or maybe reading too many stories that bandy about "this" theme! :-)

   Perhaps, a small "cultural thing" to muddy the waters more. Have you considered that there's also the associated "good/bad" karma of our actions to mull over? You may walk away today, but the karma of the unpaid commitment to your old friend might manifest at the most inopportune moment to collect its dues ;-)

   But, having said all that, JohnnyH also mentions many interesting points for you that you could point to your friend while doing the "sit-down and let's have a frank discussion" talk Spence proposed. if all fails, then Muir's recommendation to consult a real estate attorney also sounds like the thing to do.

   Posted 2 years ago #
9. 

   VicTimRetire
   

   Novice
   Joined: Jan '11
   Posts: 7

   First, just to offer an opposing viewpoint:
   There was a time when I would have agreed with the "my word is my bond" philosophy when it comes to mortgages --- but a few years ago I made the mistake of taking the red pill (ala The Matrix) and read a book by Ellen Hodgson Brown called, "The Web of Debt" (her website: http://www.webofdebt.com/). If the Mortgage Bankers Association does a "strategic default" on the mortgage for their own headquarters, perhaps a "stategic default" in your case wouldn't be so bad. After all, I assume your debt is nowhere near $79,000,000. Of course you have to live with the consequences/karma of your action, should you choose to do so - namely, your credit will be ruined, you'll probably have all your credit cards canceled, you could be liable for a default judgment for 5 years for the remaining shortage on the mortgage balance, you'll be unable to purchase another home for several years, etc.

   That aside, it really comes down to your relationship with your friend. Do you want him to be the best man at your wedding? If so, you most definitely need to have a calm (if possible!) sit down with him to let him know that your goal is to move on, so he needs to plan accordingly. You've exceeded the time limit on your 3-year plan for the house...and unfortunately, it didn't work out the way you'd hoped. Quite honestly, I can't imagine you recovering the lost equity in your home any time soon ---- unless there is some hyper-inflation that jacks up the price of everything. It could be 15 or 20 years before you could sell your house profitably! Sad, but true. Hey, I'm in the same boat myself - I'm probably over $100,000 in the negative on my home. I quit looking at zillow.com a year ago. Just too depressing! And I bought my home 7 years ago - not at the market height.

   If he really wants to stay, I suggest he buy you out somehow so it's a "clean" break. Or perhaps you guys can re-negotiate your loan so renting it out wouldn't create negative cash flow. I would suggest an attorney that specializes in foreclosures and real estate...they will be up-to-date on all available programs for your mortgage situation. Unfortunately your situation offers no good easy answers. Good luck!

   Posted 2 years ago #
10. 

    captgwg
    

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 10

    @Jeremy
    Most non southern states have non recourse first mortgage loans. That's the legal agreement the parties have agreed to. The house itself is the collateral provided no second mortgage was involved. There's no legal requirement to pay the mortgage.

    I suggest you serve yourself first (which of course includes consideration of your friend) and
    “Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what’s right.” – Isaac Asimov

    Posted 2 years ago #
11. 

    Mo
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 443

    @Jeremy, sounds like a truly tough spot, sorry man...

    The first thing that is apparent to me is that this is not likely to be over soon. So, I would try to come to grips with that as reality. Often our minds focus on an improbable, but quick solution, while neglecting the more probable, but lengthy one.

    Why don't you buy your friend out, and then the house is yours?

    Posted 2 years ago #
12. 

    DC Waffler
    

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 22

    I took a negotiation class. One of the foundations of the class is negotiating interests vs. positions. For example, two kids want an orange, and their position is that they each need the entire orange. Mom comes along and asks what they will use the orange for (interest). One answers that he needs the peel for baking, the other just wants some OJ.

    So to get this negotiation to work to your best interest, you should find out what it is your friend really wants/needs and lead him into a joint solution. Does he really want to move on? Then the argument is how do we cut our losses so that we can both take advantage of new opportunities? Does he want to stay? Then the argument is how can he stay while you move on? Does he have a financial problem, i.e., you wrote "Do I stick around for my friend to get his finances in order..." Then the argument is let's find options (e.g. having roommates) that you could brainstorm together that would improve his finances.

    Posted 2 years ago #
13. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    My friend is uncompromising.

    We live in a ranch house with 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms.

    Currently we have two roommates who pay a lot less then I do to live there. One of the roommates is my friends girlfriends sister and her friend. Both have fulltime jobs. We originally lowered their rent to entice them to stay because they wanted to go back to school. Originally we thought this was a good idea because then we wouldnt have strangers living with us, but now Im not sure it was such a good idea.

    My friend refuses to buy me out or let me buy him out. In fact, there really isnt anything to buy out since we are probably $20,000 to $40,000 underwater on the loan. Yep, no equity.

    His plan is to stay "till its done". Meaning, stay till the situation seems right to leave. We have already done an entire kitchen remodel, and basement remodel including a bathroom in the basement. What he would like to do is a full remodel of the upstairs bathroom among other improvements.

    I think most of what he wants to do is unnecessary and costly. To get out faster Ive even suggested putting more money in to get contractors to do some of the work. (Time is money). He says, "Im not going to have contractors do what I can do myself." Meanwhile Im sure he would have broke even had he not bought all these expensive tools to do work he is learning how to do in the process. And he wants me to help pay for the tools. ha!

    Again, time is money and I feel Ive wasted too much time here already.

    Ive stuck around because as HSpencer said I do feel a moral obligation to see this thing through. Unfortunately, my friend is ruining my sanity.

    BTW, other disagreements with my current girlfriend has led my friend to say, "I wont be your best man at your wedding if you marry her, but Ill at least come to the wedding"

    So I dont care about the friendship anymore. He isnt a very good friend, but he expects me to be. ha!

    Im just really done with him and this whole situation.

    Hope this helps you guys understand this a little better. Thank you for the advice thus far and I look forward to any other thoughts you have.

    Cheers,
    Jeremy

    Posted 2 years ago #
14. 

    Mo
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 443

    The idea that you are underwater on your mortgage does not mean that there is nothing to buy out. To the contrary, my guess is that neither party can buy the other out due to a lack of money and/or financing-- paradoxically, the buy out is too expensive.

    One of the things that comes through in your writing is that there are a lot of extra side-issues here (girlfriends, friends, sisters, room mates, tools, home improvements, etc...) that seem to distract from the ultimate issue, which seems to be that you want to move out.

    I might handle such a situation by saying to my friend: "This housing situation is no longer working for me. I am going to move out on X date. I would like to try to work out an agreement as to how things will work after X date." I would chose X date to be something like at least 6 months in the future-- possibly even a year. Use the intervening time to work out an agreement. If none is reached, you still move out, but continue to attempt to reach a constructive agreement. I would keep very clear records of my attempts to reach a constructive agreement: proposals would be formally typed out and signed, communication would be by email, with copies sent to all involved parties, etc...

    This situation appears to be one that will be both painful and expensive to remove yourself from. You very well may end up moving out, but still sending a monthly check over to your friend. I don't see too many realistic options that will allow you to move out and not cover your half of the payments.

    It would seem that not covering your half of the financial obligation is most likely to lead you to a legal battle. As you remark, time is money-- legal battles take an awful lot of both time and money.

    Posted 2 years ago #
15. 

    George the original one
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,972

    From my reading of this thread, Mo's most recent comment is spot on. There's a hairball of side issues obscuring the main issue and you two need to negotiate on the main issue or else pay lawyers to do it for you (which is never a good situation... it's akin to HSpencer's earlier thread on divorce).

    Posted 2 years ago #
16. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    @ Mo - Honestly, money isnt the issue, either one of us could buy the other out at any time. The problem is my friend won't compromise. He would say, "Im not allowing you to leave until this is over." I would say, "When is this going to be over?" He would say, "When its over." Obviously not much to work with.

    Also, two years ago I proposed a 6 month plan of me moving out. My friend got so mad that he blew up on me and then wouldnt talk to me for awhile. Like I killed his dog or something.

    He is basically stringing me along for as long as he can, till he gets his life together.

    Renting the house out has always been an option, but he won't do it till its "perfect". "I still need to fix that plumbing." "We still need to do this, we still need to do that." We are talking about stuff that works that simply needs upgraded or would eventually need fixing at some point anyhow. Our house is really nice and anyone would be happy living here.

    So thats the point Im at. There are plenty of options that dont involve me living there, but my friend will not accept ANY option except me living here "till its done".

    All of this is why I am to the point of issuing ultimatums, considering legal action, etc....

    Posted 2 years ago #
17. 

    Robert Muir
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 280

    Forget my advice for an attorney; you need psychiatric help for your friend.

    Seriously, you need to engage an attorney ASAP to help you get out of this mess.

    Posted 2 years ago #
18. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    @ Robert - Or to play devil's advocate, suck it up and stay till it's easier for both of us to get out of the situation.

    On a side note, I talked to him again last night.

    No on a buy out for either person. His pride in all the work he has done here won't allow him to give me the house. On the other side, He says he can't take the house because who would pay $700 in "rent" and pay half of all the upgrade expenses. I told him I would still pay for upgrades he just would get a renter for my room. Still no go.

    He asks me why I want to give up now after all the work we have done, and because we are over half way finished. I say because I am just done and want to move on. Not an acceptable answer in his book.

    Then he says I dont understand him. That he wants out of this situation too. I say let's try to sell the house and maybe get lucky on a price. He says it won't happen and even if we broke even we still wouldn't get our investment in upgrades to the house back. I say so what.

    Eventually he says that I need to take the long term view on the subject. That eventually this place will pay off. That we will have renters that will pay down the mortgage and 20 plus years from now we will have the house free and clear. We could keep renting it or sell it later for a nice chunk of change to pay down mortgages on the houses we will live in later with our families.

    Besides we would just have to pay rent elsewhere anyhow...

    I say all fine and good, but the money just doesn't matter to me. The way Im going Id probably have any house I live in paid off before this mortgage gets paid off. More retirement income? I guess so. It would be nice of course, but not necessary.

    He also says that this can't be the only reason that I am unhappy and miserable. I say there is a real good chance it is.

    Putting other issues aside for a moment. Do you guys think it is best that I keep improving this house so that it will be easy to maintain once we rent it out? Or is landlording not worth the big payout in the end?

    Honestly, if you guys can just help me answer that last question, Ill stop making this thread so long. haha. Thank you for all your help!

    Cheers,
    Jeremy

    Posted 2 years ago #
19. 

    photoguy
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 202

    What is your BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement)? What happens if you just walk away and can you use that as leverage?

    Posted 2 years ago #
20. 

    JohnnyH
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,393

    Many improvements will never pay off... Consumers aren't building inspectors. If it LOOKS nice, they won't really dig deeper... If you aren't building for yourself, it certainly shouldn't be perfect and perfectly done. Quick, cheap and pretty if you want to make money.

    He can never know if no one will buy... Let the realtor worry about that. It doesn't cost 1 dime to try and sell at a ridiculous price... It only takes 1 fish to bite, and there is a sea out there. He really should cede on this, it is illogical and selfish not too.

    Be sure to factor rent saved into your calcs. Over the last 5 years, even if you two rented a house for $700 a month (probably way low) that's $42,000... Likely more than you're underwater.

    Help with the work? Or hire a cheap, good contractor, entirely out of your own pocket? Set an attack plan to finish the work quickly so there will be no more excuses?

    Posted 2 years ago #
21. 

    Dorothea
    

    Novice
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 26

    My opinion without any regard to mortgage, estate market or legal issues:

    You sounds like you really hate the situation your in. You want to improve it. You have identified what bugs you, but it involves other people, so now you involve them.
    Your friend will not have any of it. He blocks your suggestions and the only acceptable option appears to be the status quo, which of course isn't acceptable to you. Your relationship has suffered to the degree that you are no longer close friends, certainly not close enough to be best man or share investments with.
    The last post sounds like he either has his head deep deep in the sand because of the financial situation, or he is being downright manipulative. Either way, change in the near future is unlikely baring any major enlightening events for him.
    If this was a marriage I'd say get a lawyer and get out. As it is, the lawyer needs to have a different speciality, but the advice stays the same. You seems to be begging a brick wall to move. Get some heavy machinery.

    p.s. Honour when dealing with utter disregard is being a doormat IMO.

    Posted 2 years ago #
22. 

    Maus
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 505

    *** NOT LEGAL ADVICE ***

    Sorry, just have to CMA.

    Robert is giving you good advice. Consult an attorney. Depending on how the title to the house is held, you can force a sale or buyout by bringing an action for partition. Since there is negative equity, the likely result will be a forced sale at a loss. You stated that you don't care about the money. Just walk away from this anxiety and move on with your life. Let your lawyer be the bad guy and force you friend to do the rational thing. It will be money well spent.

    Posted 2 years ago #
23. 

    Kevin M
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 211

    Similar to Maus' advice, try like hell to list it. Maybe an agent (a non-biased third party) can talk some sense in to him. Throwing good money after bad isn't something I'd do unless you have a firm offer in hand that says "fix X or Y or we'll walk". Do you really want to get into land-lording with this guy? I'd explore every opportunity until finding a way to part.

    Posted 2 years ago #
24. 

    VicTimRetire
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 7

    To answer your last question, here is a question: Can you rent the place out for a profit right now? If it can't rent at a profit as it is right now, putting additional money into the house is just throwing more money into a black hole. Of course I am of the opinion that the real estate market will be falling and/or floundering for many, many years, so I don't imagine an appreciating real estate market factoring into the picture....but maybe (hopefully!) my assumption is wrong.

    If you can rent it at a profit, then my answer to any improvements would be: Don't do them until it is a rental property so they can be deducted as expenses against income. I could go on for hours about all the things that you should do (or not do) to a house that is going to be a rental, but I won't because I can clearly see you want to bail on this whole situation.

    Tell your friend that if the long term scenario is going to work out so rosy, he should be thrilled that you just sign the house over to him and for him to refinance the house in his name only....so when that "long" time is finally here he can take 100% of those gains for himself. If he really believes the line he's feeding you, then that should be a suggestion he'd jump at.

    I say go to the attorney for solid advice in your state, but try to avoid litigation....it is very expensive (I know, I work in real estate law) and you're already going to be walking away from a lot a money in this situation already. No need to come out of pocket any more than necessary.

    Posted 2 years ago #
25. 

    learning
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: May '11
    Posts: 72

    Hey VicTimRetire,

    My GF and I live in Broward - wondering if you would like to meetup sometime or talk by phone? Let me know.

    Learning

    Posted 2 years ago #
26. 

    CityGirl
    

    Novice
    Joined: May '11
    Posts: 16

    Am I really the only one who sees that he is in love with you, Jeremy, and doesn't want you to leave? You are all acting as if this is a financial issue when clearly it is an emotional issue for the roomie. It may not be a 'romantic' love, but your roomie doesn't want you breaking-up with him. Trust me on this one. Move out and swallow the bitter financial pill that follows. And do it before he goes all Fatal Attraction on you and your girl. He is an emotional manipulator and there is no winning argument for you. Sorry.

    Posted 2 years ago #
27. 

    pka222
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 64

    @Citygirl
    I was thinking the same thing as I read this thread- the roommate is has very strong feelings for his co-investor. Perhaps Jeremy can use this to his advantage and tell the roommate that while he values the friendship, and never wants it to end the living situation is forcing him to consider all options. No matter what - you have to get out- no one should be able to shackle you to a situation- not even your old lady - and certainly not your roommate.
    How is it going? Any update?
    Good luck
    Cheers

    Posted 2 years ago #

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