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Down and Out on $250,000 a year.

(29 posts)
  1. Oz

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 9

    $250,000 a year is like....50 Jacobs.

    http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Issues/The-Economy/2010/12/07/Down-and-Out-on-250000-a-Year

    "And their spending is conservative, based on national averages for professional couples with two kids. Not included are those hefty run-of-the-mill payouts for charitable deductions, life insurance premiums, disability insurance, legal fees – or monthly sessions at the hair colorist, or membership at a gym."

    How do we sympathize with those still chained in the cave? It's hard when our definitions are no longer the same. "Conservative." It's like they're speaking a different language.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. halcyon

    Apprentice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 56

    I think that's the same data from this site: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2010/12/11/GR2010121100050.html which was mentioned in another post on this forum.

    Articles like this make me cringe. It's funny because I grew up in Plano, TX, one of the cities cited in that article so I can relate (well, not really).

    One glaring point, which i think is particularly funny, is that they budget in $5,000/year for home 'cleaning'. I just want to scream "clean your own damn house, if you are in the red with that kind of salary!".

    Property taxes are high in Texas but you would have to live in an effin' mansion to pay 11k in property taxes in my area. In my city, that would be 450k house.

    And $2900 a year in car insurance? Maybe for a BMW and a Hummer.

    Personally, I would find it very hard to sympathize with a person in this situation. Indeed, I would be envious: not of their situation but of their potential...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. Mo

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 442

    The car payment is $7600/year, or $633 per month-- in the text the author indicates that this hypothetical family has two cars, but that one is paid off.

    The article seems silly to me. The supposed hardships faced by this family are painted out in detail: "take a pass on a new suit, skip an annual vacation, and drop some kids activities. Unfortunately, the family would also probably save less, at the expense of their retirement or their kids’ educations." The sacrifice and hardship! It's too much to read...

    Who would have thought that ALL you get for $250k these days is a big house with heat,AC, and electricity, two expensive cars, almost limitless medical care, unlimited food and drink, a clean unlimited reliable water supply, suitable clothing, military and police protection, dental care, an annual family trip, gifts, various forms of entertainment, someone to clean your house, meals out at restaurants, a few retirement plans, a couple of college savings plans for the kids, and a dog. I really would have thought you'd get more than that-- like daily fireworks.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. halcyon

    Apprentice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 56

    @Mo I laughed out loud when I read that. We should petition our congress for daily fireworks!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. csdx

    Apprentice
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 46

    First off wow they're spending a lot in... everything.
    Also the article is a bit disingenuous it claims that they family is 'in the red' in some cases, yet they're squirreling away over $40k in college and retirement accounts. So they're actually doing better than the 'typical' American family that spends what 104% of their income?

    Some calculations and assumptions:
    at 6% interest rate, 30yr term, their home loan is ~$500k
    at 6%, 5yr their car is ~$40k

    Posted 2 years ago #
  6. investnoob

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 5

    I never saw the 5k for cleaning, until you mentioned it Halcyon. Mo, that was pretty hilarious.

    I thought I was a pretty big spender, but wow. 20k for cars; 20k for food, 15k for leisure; 5k for cleaning. A total of 60k that could easily be trimmed. Also, 4k/yr for dentist visits. I understand that braces for two kids can be expensive. However, the costs are not indefinite.

    Well, strangely enough, this article does motivate me to reduce my own spending.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. DividendGuy

    Master
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 414

    Just when I look at my own budget and think how far I still have to go to hit ERE....I read an article like that realize just how far ahead of the curve I really am.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. HSpencer

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 770

    These (and a lot of others) need to stop, sit down, and get a CLUE! Oh, I forgot, their living the "American Dream", AKA--"90 miles per hour, down a dead end street".

    Posted 2 years ago #
  9. Mo

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 442

    I agree with investnoob, the dental costs seem high, too-- considering 2 kids in the scenario.

    As a word of well intentioned advice to those who don't have the roughly $1k per year dental costs-- take care of your teeth. I didn't regularly get dental care for about 15 years. I brushed regularly, but didn't floss often.

    The result is that I probably will average close to $100 per month for dental care for the rest of my life. It comes in waves-- some years it's just a few cleanings, other years a few fillings, a root canal, crown, etc... I anticipate I'll probably end up getting dental implants at some point. Some of the money is pre-tax; even so, in my experience, this is a lot like the health care issues we have discussed on this forum before: exercise some discipline and take care of your body on the front end, and you won't become a perpetual income stream for someone else.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  10. ktn

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 116

    I just got back from the grocery store (the big Xmas day here in Finland is actually tomorrow - Christmas Eve). The guy ahead of me at the checkout had a bunch of stuff I'd never buy - flavored bottled waters, fancy cheeses, a huge chunk of ham, etc. His total bill came to €166 or USD 218. More than I spend in a month!

    I guess he's one of these poor top-earners.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. MossySF

    Apprentice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 44

    Keep on driving ... don't stop to gawk at the crash at the side of the road.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. George the original one

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,939

    In this whole fantasy scenario, few people seem to notice that this couple is banking $41,000 per year (approximately 21% of takehome pay). Yes, this family will be fine.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  13. mikeBOS

    Master
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 554

    Those poor people. Maybe we should take up a collection?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. dragoncar

    Expert
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 1,287

    Not only are they banking $41k/year, they are putting around $18k/year toward principal on their mortgage (estimate based on $36k annual mortgage payments). I do not fall into the camp that you "can't count your primary residence" towards net worth. Once they are empty nesters, they can sell that $1 million house (estimate based on a 30 year loan), move to a $100k house and pocket the difference (estimate based on no taxes ;)

    Of course, just because they are "making ends meet" does not mean they aren't overspending. I'm just trying to put things into perspective. They will likely have a comfortable traditional retirement.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. Mo

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 442

    Am I wrong in figuring that in 7 out of 8 scenarios the family couldn't bank $41k without cutting other expenses? Of the $41k, $8k is for the kids college funds, $33k is for the parents retirement.

    The scenario family will be fine if: neither of the 2 workers faces prolonged unemployment, they earn a pretty good real return (net of taxes and inflation) on their investments, and they're willing to cut their expenses in the future, etc...

    One of the things I expect families who earn in the top 3% to "buy" first is financial security-- not $40k cars, and $400/mo maids.

    If the argument becomes that the scenario family will be fine by drastically cutting expenses in the future, it seems at least equally valid to suggest that moderately reducing expenses now might prevent the need for a drastic cut in expenses in the future.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. jampit3

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 16

    I think that the point of this article is that even with a very generous salary, the pursuit of the "American Dream" is elusive. The point that most of you make is being soundly being made there.

    Most of you live a spartan life (the rest of us are doing some variation that works for us). The people in this article, as most Westerners are, unaware that there is another way.

    In this Orwelian world of 24 hour media, it is dificult to see another path to happiness. If you don't know, you don't...

    I am sure that most of you didn't know what you know now before. It is often hardship that is the tuition of the education of life.

    It is easy, through snobbery, or perhaps jealousy? to ridicule, as is often done here, those not enlightened. I, as a clinician, teach better health habits to those with asymetric knowledge of the consequences. Sarcasm and snobbery seldom help (it didn't teach my child to speak or read either). Also pursuit of any lifestyle can be an addictive opiate.

    The arrogance here often parallels those that "have too much". The article, I believe, demonstrates the obvious: the treadmill to more is an illusion. Where is your treadmill headed?

    Hang the rich ;-)

    JP

    Posted 2 years ago #
  17. ktn

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 116

    @jampit3: Thanks for the contrarian point of view. You make some good points (and a couple of lousy ones).

    I for one disagree that this, You vs. Us divide you portray, is as black and white.

    I think many of us here have had (may currently have or could still have in future) spending patterns similar to those of the family in the article. What this community drives home for me is that it is very possible to live an interesting life with expenses far less than what society around us consider a minimum.

    I wish I had come across all this "sarcasm and snobbery" when I did have $100k+ earnings and was among the top 5% top-earners in USA.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. veganprimate

    Novice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 29

    @jampit3: You make one fatal error. You assume that the way the members on this forum talk ABOUT someone is the same way that they would talk TO someone. I see people asking questions of others on this forum, and the advice is never snarky or arrogant.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. jampit3

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 16

    Vegan and KTN-- you are both right. I was being contrarian and a little sarcastic myself. The views here are largely positive and instructive.

    Just don't forget that its about living a good life, that doing without for its own sake is not neccesarily the goal.

    Its easy to get caught up in the means and not the end.

    And some entries on some sights have been a little snotty, but hey, these are really intelligent people.

    PS: learning a ton of stuff here.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. MossySF

    Apprentice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 44

    Re last few posts -- remember the linked article is not even about real people, just a hypothetical family. What the ulterior motive is, I have no interest in guessing.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. HSpencer

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 770

    The formula is something like this: (Jacob likes formulas-more in his excellent book which I highly recommend)

    $250,000 a year annual income (minus) a brain to manage that amount. Expressed as: 250K - ~0~. The "zero" comes in financial management.

    Let's face it. They hypothetical family in the article are spendthrifts. There was a reference to gym memberships. Gym memberships? You don't need no friggin gym memberships! Anyone can walk for free. Spend the membership money on the fancy Nike running suit(whats wrong with a gray sweatshirt and jeans you already own?) even if you never jog a lick. Walk somewhere in the suit. Chop a few ricks of wood. Clean the house your paying someone else to clean. Do a few pushups or situps. Better than that do what I do at age 65:

    Biweekly---Four mile walk/run in an hour.
    Biweekly---20 pushups
    Biweekly---20 situps
    (yes, it hurts some at my age, but I have done it all my life)

    I don't have no friggin gym membership, just some get up and go.
    At home, I dust, put things away, run the sweeper or mop, take out the trash, clean our windows, wash down our porches, deck and driveway, and fix things, grow a fair garden, and mow and trim the lawn. I don't need no friggin gym membership. I cut trees and chop wood and split wood and stack wood and share with my neighbors. I cut a rick on his land and split up half the rick with him. Works great. Sometimes we both go out and cut all day and stack a cord of wood for both of us.

    Although the article is hypothetical, and the 250K is quite a bit above most people, the truth remains of it even down to 40K earners. Some 40-60K earners are trying to emulate the 250K earner. These people fold because the life they live is unsustainable. Meaning they cannot afford it. To determine if you can't afford something, ask yourself to produce the money for it. If you cannot produce the money, you can't afford it. Casually borrowing money at interest means you could not afford what you spent the money on. None of this is all that technical. No formulas needed. A hand held calculator is helpful in this exercise, and would make an excellent wedding present for newly married couples. I would get them the business model that displays loans, etc and their costs over the life of the loans. The gift is worthless if they don't use it, they don't know how to use it, or no one teaches them to use it. Or you could insult them with:

    OK--you have a dollar. You spend .10 and save .10. How much of the dollar is available for other things and uses? If you have .80 left, and your mortgage is .30 and your food is .10, then how much is left for other things and uses? Ok don't do this--you might get a blank stare and lose a friend or relative's friendship. But sometimes you feel like doing the above.

    So-- The thread and posts are not about arrogance or snobbery
    at all. They are about common sense and facts and suggestions that people begin to think their way out of the pit they are in. There are certain laws of mathematics. These laws cannot be changed. You have 'x' so you can accomplish "y". If you borrow money, "y" suddenly becomes much more expensive. We have all driven around subdivisions in the past, and watched expensive homes being built. We say to each other "Who can afford these houses?" Answer: Hardly anyone we know, but they being sold by brokers who appeared willing to lend money to a dead cat. (Don't worry, this is not a treatise on the housing bubble).
    So no one should take offense at this thread, or at least at the posts I have read on it so far.
    MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  22. Oz

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 9

    This thread came to be much longer than I expected! It feels like we're preaching to the choir here.

    I think it's safe to say that most if not all of us are on the same wavelength regarding the hypothetical family of four with a $250,000/year household income: they're stuck playing their shadow games on the wall.

    But back to my original question. In the allegory of the cave (516a) http://www.carroll.edu/~msmillie/perspectives/caveallegory.htm , our person who has seen the light goes back in the cave and takes pity on his companions only to be ridiculed. How do we sympathize with those still chained in the cave? Plato leaves us hanging and only goes on to describe a society run by a benevolent (we hope) philosopher-king.

    I believe the Buddha ran into a similar predicament. After his enlightenment, the Buddha inclined towards resting into the ease of his own awakening, tiring at the thought of trying to spread the word. "This Dhamma is not easily realized by those overcome with aversion & passion. What is abstruse, subtle, deep, hard to see, going against the flow — those delighting in passion, cloaked in the mass of darkness, won't see."

    Then, Brahma Sahampati invoked the Buddha to search for those "with little dust in their eyes" and to teach them: "There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma." Only then did the Buddha go forth, out of compassion and seeing that not all were hopeless. Whether or not you believe the Brahma was the spiritual being or a manifestation of the Buddha's own charisma is up to you =P

    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn06/sn06.001.than.html

    We're not all hopeless. For those on the fast-track, welcome to your place of refuge. For the rest, there's always the gradual path.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. ktn

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 116

    Great post, Oz. I loved the allegory as well as that episode from the life of Buddha. Herman Hesse's book "Siddhartha" happens to be one of my all time favorites - highly recommend it.

    "It feels like we're preaching to the choir here" - do remember that many of us 'choir members' live in societies where we are the odd ones out. I certainly feel pressure from family, friends and colleagues to conform/consume still. This forum helps clear some of the dust in my eyes.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. George the original one

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,939

    It's not only the pressures from friends & colleagues that cause us to break the good habits. There are also the jealousies within ourselves, driving us to consume like others because "we deserve it" and "why can't I live in that McMansion?"

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. Oz

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 9

    @ktn: At first, I was disappointed when I started reading Hesse's "Siddhartha" because the title led me to think it was about Siddhartha Gotama, the Buddha, not about a fictional contemporary named Siddartha. Nevertheless, it is a poignant story about the spiritual journey.

    As an economic fact, the Buddha and his monastics, as well as other teachers and their groups, were also in the minority in their times. There had to be enough lay followers to provide the material requisites for the monastics who devoted their lives to non-materialistic goals. The difference though is that India had and continues to have a long tradition and culture of supporting this alternative lifestyle. ERE definitely goes against the stream in this American life. And we have to do it on our own without that same culture of support.

    The advantage we enjoy is that the division of lay/monastic and material/spiritual is no longer an economic necessity. Those of us who enjoy the material abundance of western modernity have access to the tools and materials necessary to fashion a life of our own with with that kind of austerity, if we so choose. No need to go begging for food with an alms bowl.

    The problem is that we no longer have to be connected to a community. The marketplace has taken over many of the functions that a tightly knit community use to provide (i.e. daycare) and we have to be careful in choosing to still be a part of a community, lest we begin to harbor misanthropic thoughts.

    @George: I sometimes feel the same tendency. I chalk it up to not developing a large enough sense of disenchantment. All the necessary logic can be mustered and written on the wall, and it still won't matter if I feel an attachment tugging away. Maybe a "scared straight" session would do the trick? We no longer have debtor's prisons, so we'll have to look a little harder to find people to yell at us to change our ways.

    We can also find other illustrative examples. Currently, I like Thales, the pre-Socratic philosopher who was ridiculed for his poverty-inducing occupation with philosophy (which included the sciences). He took it as a challenge and applied his knowledge of astronomy to predict a large crop of olives the following summer. He then went on to corner the market by buying all the olive-presses before demand picked up. Having made his fortune, he went back to the life of philosophy. Neat, huh?

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Aristot.+Pol.+1.1259a&redirect=true

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. slacker

    Journeyman
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 110

    > Who would have thought that ALL you get for $250k
    > these days is a big house with heat,AC, and electricity,
    > two expensive cars, almost limitless medical care,
    > unlimited food and drink, a clean unlimited reliable
    > water supply, suitable clothing, military and police
    > protection, dental care, an annual family trip,
    > gifts, various forms of entertainment, someone to
    > clean your house, meals out at restaurants, a few
    > retirement plans,a couple of college savings plans
    > for the kids, and a dog. I really would have thought
    > you'd get more than that-- like daily fireworks.

    lol!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. freudgirl

    Novice
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 23

    @OZ: The way that ERE-minded folks live will be very inticing to those who see the value in it (those with "little dust in thier eyes"). I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing and be an open book to the curious.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. freudgirl

    Novice
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 23

    This thread also reminds me of Orwell's great book "Down and Out in Paris and London", where he chronicles living on poverty wages in those cities.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. BeyondtheWrap

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 266

    What I don't like about the chart in the article is where they failed to research the costs in different areas. According to that chart, food, medical insurance, car insurance, and utilities cost the same everywhere. Preposterous!

    Posted 1 year ago #

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