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1. 

   iProgramStuff
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Jul '12
   Posts: 35

   Thanks for looking at my journal!

   If you're reading this, it probably means that you are interested in my journal; my adventure; my journey to early retirement extreme! I'll begin by talking a little about myself, then move on to the nitty gritty numbers. I'm hoping that through these forums we can all help each other and be better off. I've already learned a lot from these forums (not to mention the blog & the book) and I am still learning all the time. I hope to spread this knowledge further!

   Now, on to me.
   I'm still pretty young - 21. That gives me lots of time to save money, while not being old enough to have already made the mistake of getting a costly mortgage. I'm an INTJ, and generally a quiet person in social situations. I think a lot. I read and research a lot. I feel compelled to learn everything I can NOW so that when I'm 50, there is no piece of information that comes by and makes me say "I wish I knew that when I was 20". I don't want regrets due to being ill-prepared for life. In this vein, I've started learning about money management, eating healthy, and generally trying to live a life of no regrets. I'm a first generation (first of my family) university student. Studying Computer Science and I just finished my third year this May. Along with that began a 16 month internship on April 30th, 2012 at Evertz, after which I will be returning to school to complete my fourth year and after that comes endless possibilties which have been at the forefront of my mind for the last 6 months intensively. I have a girlfriend who is very interested in the same stuff as me (disinterested in working 8 hours a day,5 days a week just to have a big house, nice car, lots of debt and no time to spend with kids and family; not to mention a common perspective towards food: meatless, maybe even completely raw and living location: we both think this (http://simondale.net/house/index.htm) is awesome). We've been dating for 6 years now (highschool sweethearts), and plan for a future together.

   How about some financial details now?
   I have no house, no car, and no major bills. I live with my parents, and although my mom would like $150 a month, I have not been forced to pay this yet (cheap or frugal? :P). I work in another city and the commute is about 40 minutes due to traffic. My dad drives me. Both of my parents are unemployed, so I pay my dad $200 a month to drive me (and I don't think this covers the gas so I believe he's taking a hit here). There is a bearded dragon in my room which I take care of in exchange for her guarding my room while I'm gone. She costs me about $15 a month in crickets, and once in awhile new lights and vitamin powder. I have a pay as you go cell phone (got the phone itself for free as a gift from my girlfriend: it is an iPhone that I have been contemplating of ditching). This costs me $20 a month (Or should I say $6000 in savings) for unlimited texting. I used to add a monthly $10 100MB add-on, but have stopped. I buy some food, about $75 a month. I have an Excel spreadsheet based off of akratics that I will evolve over time to represent information in new ways, and add some graphs and charts. Right now I am utilizing the +FI, and -FI tabs to track income and expenes and a Finances tab to sum it all up. I began tracking two months ago, so averages will start to get more consistent(or continuously drop :-) ), or meaningful.

   I have a student debt: $11,798, and I will need to pay for one more year of school which will be about $7,000. A part of me feels foolish now for going to school, especially since I was a freelance programmer before going to University. However, I feel it has given me prospects and the 'credentials' to get two of the high paying jobs I have today. It has sparked enormous personal growth and development, and imbued me with more confidence. It stole time from me, but I was very rarely going to class anyways. I decided that with a 1 hour travel time (each way) it was more beneficial to skip class. That would result in a ton of extra time which could be used for studying the material on my own. I found I could use the extra time to study, continue at the same level, and have additional time for personal projects (working, researching). Example: A normal day could have had 3 classes, with an hour break between (this is conservative, sometimes I had 4 or 5 classes, with even more breaks. The small computer science faculty has little flexibility in course selection as most are just offered in one slot - so I can't design a compact schedule) would consume 4 hours + 2 hours of travel time for a total of 6 hours. I could study for 3 or 4 hours to learn all the missed material, and still be left with two extra hours of time for personal projects.

   And my income:
   Day job: $3000 per month
   Secondary freelance job: $300 per month
   Tertiary freelance job: $500 per month

   All of these jobs are relatively stable. My day job is at Evertz Monday-Friday for 8 hours. My secondary freelance job is a client that has regular work coming to me at $30 an hour. And the third is making flash games (currently commisioned by Armor Games to make a sequel to Master of Fortresses. See http://www.iprogramstuff.com).

   These are the categories I'm tracking (Looking for suggestions or category name changes, consolidating categories, breaking them up, etc. I am happy to refine this), and using averaged data from my 2 months of tracking:

   Transportation $213.01
   Food $106.85
   Housing $0.00
   Recreational $460.75
   Entertainment $99.26
   Rodney $15.04
   Clothes $0.00
   Gardening $30.00
   Cell Phone $15.07
   Clothes $0.00
   Contingencies $8.50
   Munchies $22.40
   Gifts $15.37
   Other $158.63
   FI Expenses $1,222.06

   Evertz $3,041.86
   PhilM $300.00
   Flash $971.00
   Other $250.00
   FI Income $4,562.86
   FI Savings $3,340.81

   TOTAL SAVED: $6,940.49

   My freedom plans involve a mesh of many strategies. I am definitely of the mindset that once I 'retire', my income does not need to stop. My goal is financial independence, not a life of no work. That is to say, if I work, it's because I want to be. I think I can live a happy life if I never have to be driven by money to do things; I want to be free to do the things I want, that make me happy.

   This post marks a step in that journey and I'm glad to be posting it in this community.

   Posted 10 months ago #
2. 

   secretwealth
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jun '11
   Posts: 1,505

   Wow--that's one of the highest savings rates I've seen yet. Good job--I'm jealous!

   Posted 10 months ago #
3. 

   JoeShmoe
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Dec '11
   Posts: 77

   No rent in there, clearly.

   Great job!! You will be so great when you are older with the power of compound interest....You are fortunate to have this awareness at 21.

   Thanks for sharing your trajectory!

   Posted 10 months ago #
4. 

   EMJ
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 171

   What is your reasoning behind spending $460.75 on Recreation and
   $99.26 on Entertainment but refusing your mother $150? You make a lot of money.

   Posted 10 months ago #
5. 

   m741
   

   Master
   Joined: Jan '11
   Posts: 731

   First off, this is very impressive. Looks like you have a lot of things under control.

   Second, I agree with EMJ - if both your parents are unemployed, you can probably afford to contribute a small sum back to them ($200 is good for daily travel expenses, and if you're father's fine with it that's cool, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a bit more if you're the only employed one in the family). Obviously I don't know the full circumstances though.

   Third - how have you gotten paid for flash games? Is it purely through commissions? Seems like a reasonable way to make some decent money on the side.

   Finally I just posted an update to akratic's spreadsheet here: http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2557
   You might find some of it useful. A lot of it remains the same as what akratic put together but there are some changes.

   Posted 10 months ago #
6. 

   Bytta
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 55

   Hi there, congrats on your realisation and journey towards freedom. I'm sure you will get there faster than expected.

   Secondly, I agree with EMJ and m741. If you unemployed parents are generous enough to let you stay, I think it's not against the ERE principle to return the generosity. Sometimes when you have a tunnel vision to go somewhere, you forget to care about people around you who are pretty much one of the sources of your happiness and contentment.

   Again, like M741 said, obviously I don't know the full circumstances in which you and your family are. Good luck and looking forward to reading more entries.

   Cheers.

   Posted 10 months ago #
7. 

   iProgramStuff
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Jul '12
   Posts: 35

   secretwealth: Thanks! It isn't too hard - I'm still lucky to live like a broke student, and with my parents!

   Jon Shmoe: It would be nice to take advantage of compound interest. I feel like the numbers behind this is what first gave me the nudge towards the "What else should I start young?" thinking. That just snowballed and led to lots of research and where I am today. Though, If I'm retiring early, I can't rely too much on compound interest. I hope to be lucky enough to continue to grow my savings after retiring though, as Jacob does. Then I bet I'd see better things from compound interest :-)

   I don't mind delving into a bit more detail regarding my family life, so here goes. My mother is legally blind, almost entirely. She has major health problems (mostly due to her complete lack of care of what she puts in her body. Pepsi is almost an exclusive drink for her, and fried, or extremely processed foods are a staple. She is also poor at making household decisions, in my opinion. I can usually see ways to improve her decision or a better alternative but she is unreasonably stubborn and impossible to negotiate with. She always does what she wants, and my dad always goes along with her (he stays near silent in every 'negotiation'). She receives ODSP (Ontario Disability Support Program) money from the government. She is asking for $150 because they reduced the amount given to her when I began working. I have several reasons for not paying. 1) She /only/ wants me to give her money, but will accept no other help (time, knowledge, etc). 2) I'm of the understanding that she receives money for me, but less. This implies that she receives money to cover say, the extra rent of a 2 bedroom apartment over a 1 bedroom apartment, and that the money reduced were for entertainment, food, or other such which I now spend my own money for. 3) She, in general, is a very angry, bossy person, and I would pay $150 to get away(1), not stay. People who have met her actually worry about my sanity due to living with her. This is not an exaggeration, and more than 5 people have said similar sentiments to me.

   Though, I still feel a little guilt for not paying, and your opinions made that come on again. When it boils down to it, I am still living here, and they do struggle financially (but again, due to her bad decisions. She just bought 2 laptops, and a new $800 couch set when we had a perfectly good one. Not to mention when she moved out of a house we were renting before she had a place to go to, and ended up staying in a good shepherd home for a few weeks. This was due to her stupidity, as we were legally still allowed to stay in the house. I talked to the land lord, and ended up staying at the house with my brother. If this has you confounded: good).

   (1) On that note, if I moved out closer to work, I would save the $200 transportation costs and ride my bike instead making a move worth $380 ($200 + $150 + $30 for time saved in transit).

   m741: When I first started, I had nothing to show. So I just made a game I had an idea for (Ninja+) and posted it on http://www.flashgamelicense.com and got a sponsorship for $2000. That's how I got into the business :-) From there, I did a lot of mixed work. I did some commission jobs (some reskins, some entire games) and some games 'for myself' hoping to snag a sponsorship or get lucky enough to make a viral hit with ads in the game. I even attempted a MochiCoin game (selling in-game items) but that flopped. Few games make it with micro transactions. Thanks for the updated spreadsheet! I've bookmarked it and will move my data over, or port your ideas into this existing one (whatever seems easier) when I find the time.

   Thanks for taking the time to post, all of you!

   Posted 10 months ago #
8. 

   EMJ
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 171

   There's often more to $ than meets the eye, eh?

   Could you find a better, cheap living situation closer to work/away from your parents? You seem to be well organized and well on your way already

   Posted 10 months ago #
9. 

   iProgramStuff
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Jul '12
   Posts: 35

   Hi EMJ,

   A negative to moving out would probably be the extra work involved. Handling bills, doing laundry, doing dishes, etc. These are done for me (an argument for paying my parents an extra $150). I have A LOT of personal interests, research, hobbies, and activities that make me feel like I have little time already. When the extra chores are thrown on top, I may lose time, which means less research and preparations for my future. Additionally, my girlfriend lives in Hamilton (though commuting to Hamilton to see her happens less than commuting from Hamilton to go to work), so that is convenient (I bike to her house).

   Thanks for the words of encouragement everyone. It's feels nice to 'expose' my life and hear that I'm doing well, or headed in the right direction.

   Posted 10 months ago #
10. 

    mds
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 77

    One of my biggest regrets from college was not realizing that I could have made quite a bit doing contract programming on the side. If only I had know about ERE, Pomodoros, investing, etc back then. It wasn't that I was lazy, it was that I was just ignorant of the possibilities. I had a blast in college, so it's not all bad, but it's great that you've figured all this out 6+ years before most ERE folks and 15+ years before everyone else. That's a huge advantage.

    Posted 10 months ago #
11. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    I'm hoping. My goal used to be retire by 40, but I'm thinking that is not even a challenge assuming I continue on this path. I lowered it to 35, but I'm thinking of lowering it even more.

    I checked out your journal too, and I like your "significant other book club" that you started with your girlfriend :-p. It would be a nice way to get my girlfriend to read some books that have changed my views. Though, I wonder what she'd pick for me, haha. As you said, it could be a good way to expose myself to things I wouldn't have been exposed to. As dragline said, we might both just end up reading books we don't like. I'll probably mention this idea and see where it goes with us!

    Posted 10 months ago #
12. 

    mds
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 77

    Yeah that's always a risk. I'll report back when she chooses the second book, but so far she's liking the ERE book. We may also have to put a page limit on it too just to keep things moving along.

    Posted 10 months ago #
13. 

    Spartan_Warrior
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 500

    (Okay, I'm going to come down harder than anyone else in this thread, but this is a personal issue to me and I just can't keep this to myself.)

    Let me get this straight. Your parents are letting you--a fully employed adult--live in their house, doing all your laundry and housework, probably paying for food and cooking for you as well... you're the ONLY one employed in the household, with an outrageously high salary for your age... spending hundreds of dollars a month on "entertainment"... and you balk at paying a measley $150 for rent?

    Jesus H. Christ. And to think I just posted in a thread defending ERE as NOT being stingy. This kind of crap is distorting the values of ERE completely.

    Seriously, either move out or pay the full rent asked, WHATEVER it is. Is this honestly a foreign concept?? It's not up to you what your parents do with their spending. Sure, it's sad to see loved ones make stupid financial decisions, but bottom line is your relationships to them are as "child" and "boarder/tenant" and neither of these gives you say in how the household spends its money. The money owed for rent is in exchange for your residency, not as a "reward" to be doled out on condition of spending behavior you find acceptable! Would you refuse to pay a landlord rent because you disagree with how he spends his income or because you believe he can cover the costs associated with you via other income? That's basically what you're saying here except, even worse, it's your own freaking parents you're screwing over!

    Sorry if I come across as nasty. It's personal for me because my younger sister, same age as you, has moved back in with our parents again and is ripping them off the same way. She spends ridiculous amounts on entertainment, cigarettes, and booze, but then "can't afford" to pay anything toward rent, car insurance, or student loans. To add insult to injury, she brought home two highly obnoxious cats (this coming from someone who loves cats) and since she's rarely around, my parents get to be unpaid pet babysitters too. It makes me sad to see them taken advantage of. It's also frustrating seeing my generation living up to (or rather living down to) all the stereotypes of self-entitlement and egocentrism.

    But her story pisses me off even less than yours, since I KNOW she really does make jack shit for income... while yours must be close to six figures?

    It's incredibly freaking generous for your parents to let you stay with them at all, even WITH rent!

    From the way you describe it, it's time to move out anyway IMO. I hit the same point of frustration myself when I lived at home the first couple years out of college. The benefits of the housing cost subsidy become outweighed by the negatives of the living situation (albeit my subsidy was less since I paid the couple hundred bucks of rent being asked of me). I love my parents and it's not worth introducing friction into the relationship just to save money.

    (The wasted time and frustration from a long commute also contributed to my decision to move out, and it sounds like you'd benefit in that regard too.)

    You're doing fantastic in terms of income, and okay on spending. Tighten up the frivolous expenses, find someplace cheap and close to work, and you seem set for FI well before 30--not sure if you mentioned your goal timeframe. There's no need to throw loved ones under the bus over what amounts to tiny fractions of your total earnings. That is not the spirit of ERE or even basic ethics.

    </third rant today, better stop before a torch-bearing mob drives me off the forum>

    Posted 10 months ago #
14. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    Another month is over, and here are my stats for July:

    Transportation $266.60
    Food $129.77
    Housing $40.00
    Recreational $330.00
    Entertainment $67.83
    Rodney $0.00
    Clothes $255.42
    Gardening $4.40
    Cell Phone $22.60
    Bicycle $0.00
    Contingencies $0.00
    Munchies $4.51
    Gifts $150.38
    Other $90.78
    FI Expenses $1,362.29

    Evertz $1,495.57
    PhilM $300.00
    Flash $0.00
    Other $191.50
    FI Income $1,987.07
    FI Savings $624.78

    % spent 68.56%
    % saved 31.44%

    TOTAL SAVINGS: $7,565.27
    TOTAL % SPENT: 52.10%
    TOTAL % SAVED: 47.90%

    It was an expensive month, as I had a wedding (didn't own dress clothes, so that is the clothing expense), my girlfriends birthday, our 6 year anniversary (bought a dealfind last month under Entertainment, so entertainment costs managed to stay lower this month), and I only got paid once in July (I'm paid bi-weekly, I will be paid 3 times in August). Transportation is an extra $66 due to cabbing around Toronto for our anniversary. The "Housing" is my contribution towards a tent shared between me and my girlfriend. Months like this skew results until I've got more data to get a better average. Anyways, I'll slap myself on the wrist for this month, and try harder next month.

    @spartan_warrior:
    I read your post a few days ago and have been thinking about it. I will respond to you when I've made a decision, and have more time to write a longer response regarding this.

    Posted 9 months ago #
15. 

    Spartan_Warrior
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 500

    Haha, I'm glad you're taking a level-headed response. In rereading, I was perhaps not level-headed when I wrote it and I apologize for the tone... but I do stand by most of my root points.

    Posted 9 months ago #
16. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    @Spartan_warrior: Here's that response. :-)

    You said a lot, so I'll address pieces at a time. My decision, at the moment, does remain to not pay the rent fee, so please humour my attempts at justifying that decision.

    Relationship dynamics are very hard to communicate unless you're a part of it, in my opinion. My mom makes bad decisions, my dad tends to have ideas for better decisions but he seemingly blindly listens to my moms decisions. She always gets her way. My mom is very unhealthy and does little beyond sleeping excessively, and waste hours upon hours on those "MAKE $12,323 A DAY ONLINE AT HOME". I have attempted on many numerous occasions, and using different approaches to stop her from doing this as I can see that these are all the spammy scam stuff. This included offering alternatives, and educating her about how she could actually make (and save) money, and why these are not going to make her money. Ie: Her latest attempt needed my credit card, and she wanted to buy a domain. She claimed that if she bought the domain, someone else would do everything else and make her lots of money (thats what the program claimed, said she). I could not get it through her head that everything else is the hard part. If they can do all that to make her money, they can buy a domain themselves. My dad doesn't do anything to make money, though he is perfectly capable. It seems they want easy handouts: from me, the government, or bingo. My dad doesn't show an interest in collecting the $150, it is my moms request. She handles ALL of the money in the relationship (which is just a bad decision, again). He doesn't always agree with her decisions (and I KNOW we'd be better off if we went with his decisions at least some of the time), but again, he does nothing about it..

    "(Okay, I'm going to come down harder than anyone else in this thread, but this is a personal issue to me and I just can't keep this to myself.)"
    -Warning duely noted, and future apology for tone accepted (but not needed) :-)

    "Let me get this straight. Your parents are letting you--a fully employed adult--live in their house, doing all your laundry and housework, probably paying for food and cooking for you as well... you're the ONLY one employed in the household, with an outrageously high salary for your age... spending hundreds of dollars a month on "entertainment"... and you balk at paying a measley $150 for rent?"
    -This is close. My parents are letting me--a fully employed adult--live in their house, doing my laundry for a fee ($5-$10, since the machine needs coins) about once every two weeks. They do not pay for my food, and they rarely cook for me. When they do, I can usually eat what my dad makes, but I never eat what my mom makes as it is generally cooked poorly, and always meat (boiled chicken anybody?), potatoes, and/or spaghetti, and she pours the salt on. She does not eat ANY green veggies (not an exxageration, doctors orders due to warfarin, but thats another story). I do spend hundreds a month on "entertainment" (recreational + entertainment). I'm the only one employed because I'm the only one who seems to have the motivation and desire. They are not trying to get jobs. Also, being the only one employed is a good reason to pay, but I'm 90% sure she would not be okay with payments stopping when I leave my job, and return for my last year of university.

    "Jesus H. Christ."
    -Who?

    "And to think I just posted in a thread defending ERE as NOT being stingy. This kind of crap is distorting the values of ERE completely."
    -My reasoning for withholding the money isn't because I am stingy.
    stingy: Unwilling to give or spend; ungenerous:
    Counter point: Her birthday is in a few days and I bought her a $100 gift. I have been told I'm being too generous and she doesn't deserve that. I wouldn't have a problem forking out $150 if I felt I needed to. I am willing to give and spend.

    "Seriously, either move out or pay the full rent asked, WHATEVER it is. Is this honestly a foreign concept?? It's not up to you what your parents do with their spending. Sure, it's sad to see loved ones make stupid financial decisions, but bottom line is your relationships to them are as "child" and "boarder/tenant" and neither of these gives you say in how the household spends its money. The money owed for rent is in exchange for your residency, not as a "reward" to be doled out on condition of spending behavior you find acceptable! Would you refuse to pay a landlord rent because you disagree with how he spends his income or because you believe he can cover the costs associated with you via other income? That's basically what you're saying here except, even worse, it's your own freaking parents you're screwing over!"
    --Right. I've said this to myself to. Ignoring every dynamic, this is what should happen. Bottom line: I'm living here and should pay rent if asked. This makes me feel guilty (as previously mentioned) for not paying. However, if pushed in a corner, I'd look into moving out. I haven't been pushed in a corner, and lately she has not asked for the money. She says it would help, but doesn't threaten to kick me out anymore. I feel guilty not 'helping'. I also want to imagine the hypothetical situation of my parents posting such a journal, and then getting railed for asking their kids for rent. Then you come in with your rant, and ask:
    "Would you refuse to let your child live with you for not giving you $150/month that you never earned or deserved in the first place? He's worked hard to be where he is and now you're simply attempting to mooch off of him because the government has decided to give you less taxpayer money"

    "Sorry if I come across as nasty. It's personal for me because my younger sister, same age as you, has moved back in with our parents again"
    -I never left: I feel like this makes my situation different, but in a way I'm having a hard time communicating. Maybe it doesn't.

    "She spends ridiculous amounts on entertainment, cigarettes, and booze, but then "can't afford" to pay anything toward rent, car insurance, or student loans. To add insult to injury, she brought home two highly obnoxious cats (this coming from someone who loves cats) and since she's rarely around, my parents get to be unpaid pet babysitters too. It makes me sad to see them taken advantage of. It's also frustrating seeing my generation living up to (or rather living down to) all the stereotypes of self-entitlement and egocentrism."
    -My parents don't do much for me. My mom makes my life more difficult by being against many things I try to do (bearded dragon, gardening, etc). It sounds as if you have parents who really want to take care of your sister and she is taking advantage of that. I have not brought home cats, I pay my bills, and I don't claim to not be able to afford the rent. It sounds as if she just doesn't have her priorities straight.

    "But her story pisses me off even less than yours, since I KNOW she really does make jack shit for income... while yours must be close to six figures?"
    -Not sure what you used to estimate 6 figures, but at my estimation (which is an overestimation if anything - looks like I've learned nothing about the awesomeness of safety margins from MMM...Or maybe this comment means I have) of $3800 per month = $45,600 per year. I believe my parents are given about $30,000 per year. When you compare the amount of work I do (I work hard), and the amount of work they do (none), is it fair for me to give them $150?

    "It's incredibly freaking generous for your parents to let you stay with them at all, even WITH rent!"
    -I must disagree. It is nice, but not "incredibly freaking generous". Isn't that kind of expected when two people decide to have kids? You provide for them. Kids around the world are given this luxury, plus much much more (eg my girlfriend has it amazing. Her mom is an amazing cook, they do so much around the house for her, they catered to her change in diet (when she went vegetarian), and they pay for all her school. They have two kids, and one is like me (employed full time, graduated university) and lives there rent-free. I would classify THAT as incredibly freaking generous.)

    "From the way you describe it, it's time to move out anyway IMO."
    -Agreed. But I plan to move out after University with my girlfriend. I'm bearing with it for cash savings, mostly. That becomes a bit more moot if I'm paying $150/month to live there (and $200/month for gas, which I'd save since if I moved out I'd almost definitely live within bike distance of work). I'm kind of just riding the tide till I graduate on this one.

    "I hit the same point of frustration myself when I lived at home the first couple years out of college. The benefits of the housing cost subsidy become outweighed by the negatives of the living situation (albeit my subsidy was less since I paid the couple hundred bucks of rent being asked of me). I love my parents and it's not worth introducing friction into the relationship just to save money."
    -My mom has driven my brother away because of the way she is. He has almost 0 contact with us. I've told her many times that this will be me (Everytime I'm around her I have a negative experience, why would I put myself around her?) if she keeps pushing me away. She says she doesn't care (too stubborn?). She also always reminds me where the door to leave is after saying this. She also wants to die. She's bitter. I'm not too worried about "introducing friction". It's been introduced already, and there is no getting rid of it. Now, if we had an otherwise perfect relationship, that's a different story..

    "(The wasted time and frustration from a long commute also contributed to my decision to move out, and it sounds like you'd benefit in that regard too.)"
    -Agreed. The commute is life threatening, and boring. It would be nice to remove it from my life.

    "You're doing fantastic in terms of income, and okay on spending. Tighten up the frivolous expenses, find someplace cheap and close to work, and you seem set for FI well before 30--not sure if you mentioned your goal timeframe. There's no need to throw loved ones under the bus over what amounts to tiny fractions of your total earnings. That is not the spirit of ERE or even basic ethics."
    -Thanks for the advice! I'm going to tighten expenses. I'm going to try restricting my recreational spending more, and find free ways to be entertained (sex anyone?). Maybe I've changed your mind a bit. I'm interested to see what you think now that you have a better glimpse of life here, but I'd like to steer this conversation in a direction away from rants about family life, so keeping this to a minimum would be nice. I am on the fence about this decision, and I am erring on the side of saving the extra money - due to my ERE goals - so it's funny that you say it goes against the spirit of ERE. Maybe I've got it wrong.

    </third rant today, better stop before a torch-bearing mob drives me off the forum>
    -Torches? It's the 21st century man. Lasers!

    Posted 9 months ago #
17. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    Now, that's getting into quite some detail about my family life, which isn't really what I intended for this journal. In fact, when I was finished writing that, I had second thoughts about posting it. How about we move on to some more ERE goodness? :D

    I've been researching about asset allocation, and I am interested in the Permanent Portfolio. My original plan was dividend investing, but I feel like that makes the market a larger part of my life than I want it to be. I'm not afraid of doing the work to get the results I want, but for now, I think the permanent portfolio will deliver that. I will begin purchasing assets soon (probably around the $10k savings mark) to implement this.

    My pending asset allocation is as follows (I know some PP purists will cringe at the speculation I've decided to do. I'm second guessing this myself, but I feel our market state is clear: interest rates are at an all time low, and stocks are doing poor. There is almost nowhere to go but up):
    Cash (20%)
    -Bond ladder (1-3 yr term), maybe some cash in HISA (up to 100k due to CDIC). An alternate would be the ZFS fund.

    Stocks(35%)
    XIC – Top 250 Can Comp. based on market capitalization (10% cap) (MER = 0.25%)
    (Optional) US/International Stocks (5%): XWD

    Bonds(20%)
    -2045 Canadian Government bonds. Alternate fund: ZFL, BND
    (Optional) US Long Bonds (5%): TLT

    Precious Metals (25%)
    -20% Physical Gold Bullions (1 oz Maple Leaf Gold Coins)
    -5% GTU.UN for simpler rebalancing. I would not buy GTU.UN if the price is 5% greater than the NAV. (MER = ~0.40%)

    Posted 9 months ago #
18. 

    irukandjisting
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jun '12
    Posts: 89

    Sorry - I am all for kids paying board once they work

    But - this all sounds a really unstable and unhealthy abode

    Yep - quick exit

    Posted 9 months ago #
19. 

    Spartan_Warrior
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 500

    It IS expected for parents to take care of kids, but I think you cease to be a kid when you turn 18 by most estimates. Or when you cease to be "dependent" on their tax returns, or when you become fully employed--any number of thresholds that mark your having become an autonomous being and responsible for yourself. All of which you've reached. So I can't say I agree that it's any sort of obligation for your parents to continue giving you housing. Incredibly freaking generous, maybe not, but certainly--generous.

    Yeah, the exact interpersonal dynamics of your family situation, I'll never know, although this does add some clarity. I notice, however, that your end justification for withholding rent payment is still based on your parents' behavior and not the actual barter itself (money for your residency). I still think you're taking something for nothing. Stealing, essentially. You didn't convince me otherwise, and you don't sound like you've convinced yourself either. If you feel guilty about not helping, I would say that's a good indicator that it's wrong. ^^;

    I wouldn't make the hypothetical reverse rant. If it was an unemployed parent with a fully employed adult child asking whether they should charge rent for the child to stay, I would say go for it. Hell, the parent's employment or unemployment is not even a factor. Again, I don't believe it's a parent's obligation to let independent adult offspring share their dwelling for nothing.

    Also, yeah, I seem to have misinterpreted your income--maybe I thought it was biweekly for some reason... still, you make enough. I paid $300 for rent while making $33k in my first job. You are right though, I did get more in terms of the "board" side of "room and board" than it sounds like you do.

    All in all, it's good you have an exit strategy and timeframe because your response just confirmed in my mind that getting out of there is the best thing for you.

    I'm not Jacob, to be sure, but ERE to me is actually NOT about pursuing money with an "at all costs" attitude. It's more a set of philosophies that actually serve to reduce the importance of money overall and puts the pursuit of good living first and foremost. Good living shouldn't be sacrificed for the pursuit of wealth, and in my opinion, good living includes living ethically (not stealing), caring for family (even if it feels one-way, you only get one family), and being as stress-free, healthy, and happy as possible (none of which sounds like your current living situation).

    --

    I'm doing the Permanent Portfolio and so far it's a vast relief compared to the "traditional" allocations I'd tried for years before. I have the 4x25 allocation although I do weight the long bonds portion by including some AGG--I also think the long bonds are the "weak" investment now with current rates.

    Posted 9 months ago #
20. 

    m741
    

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 731

    This is purely based on the limited amount I've read, but it seems to me that you're not particularly happy with living at home. And based on how much you're justifying not paying rent (rather extensively), it seems like there's some cognitive dissonance there.

    Maybe the best solution is to move out in the next year or two?

    Posted 9 months ago #
21. 

    KevinW
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 576

    Chris is being a good sport about discussing this openly. But I have to echo Spartan here. Good-faith contracts are the basis of civilized society, and one has to take the good and the bad of that. Along with the right to offer your services for pay and control your own finances, comes the responsibility to pay for services rendered and respect others' control of their own finances. If $150/month was the agreed-upon figure, it needs to be honored or renegotiated. The other issues sound exasperating but don't seem to negate that ground truth.

    From a more practical angle, I wouldn't play the familial obligation card since that cuts both ways. At the rate your parents are going their finances will inevitably implode, and they could then say that children are obligated to take care of their parents in old age...

    ---

    Based on backtesting, all PP-style portfolios that maintain the invariant that each asset is between 15-35% behave surprisingly similarly. I don't think tilting the allocations the way you did, or changing the rebalancing rules, or any other changes that don't violate that invariant, has any significant long-term effect. So I won't try to talk you out of your allocation. However making tweaks like that can be a slippery slope toward changes that do indeed cause problems, which is for me a compelling argument to use the pure PP.

    On the funds: BND is intermediate-term and includes non-Treasury bonds so is not really a substitute for long-term Treasuries. If it were me I wouldn't bother with the US/international stocks.

    Posted 9 months ago #
22. 

    akratic
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 480

    One way to conceptualize your PP plans is a 80% PP and a 20% VP, and right now the 20% in your VP is split 15% stocks and 5% gold.

    I do a similar thing where I speculatively overweight stocks in my total portfolio by having extra stocks in my VP.

    ===

    In your shoes I would probably also be choosing between:
    1) moving out
    2) staying but paying rent and maybe higher transportation costs (at my insistence)

    My favorite way to make difficult financial decisions is the "Your Money or Your Life" approach where you transform it from a question of dollars into a question of values and life energy (by knowing your real hourly wage). I wouldn't be surprised if "1) moving out" was the cheapest in terms of life energy, followed by "2)" above, followed by "3) staying but not paying".

    Your time is pretty valuable, and it sounds like the tension of a stressful living situation could possibly be taking up more hours a month than just working an extra few hours to pay rent ((rent + utilities - transportation savings) / real hourly wage). Waiting it out for ten more months until you graduate university really wouldn't be the worst thing though. I guess another way to look at 2) is $150 * 10 => $1.5k total to get your parents off your back for the rest of the time you'll be living there. Not a bad return on $1.5k.

    Tough decisions...

    ===

    I'm learning flash game programming in my spare time for fun. I'd love to make a little game on the side that millions of people play like Master of Fortresses! (I played your game by the way... it's pretty good! Green jackets OP.)

    Do you know any good resources for learning flash game programming? Or might you have the source for an old game you made that you wouldn't mind me looking at?

    I know lots of programming languages at this point, and I've made games on other platforms, so I'm hoping to pick up flash quickly, but there is a surprising lack of good documentation, and I'm finding the Flash CS5 timeline <-> action script code in FlashDevelop bridge to be kinda non-intuitive. If I can just get a working game loop I can take it from there and build out my idea for a game, but it's taking me a while to get started.

    Posted 9 months ago #
23. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    If we weigh this in life value, I think my mom owes me a lot of money. So, let's say you've all convinced me to pay her - but her debt to me just causes me to keep the money :-)

    Her justification for asking for the money is because the government is giving her less money now that I have a job. My justification against that is that she never spent the $150 a month on me anyways, so it shouldn't be up to me to reimburse it. I now spend over $150 a month taking care of myself, which could very well be what the government expected. She now spends $150 less on herself. Also, this is no longer an issue in the house. She doesn't ask for it anymore. Has she lost interest? Either way, it is like she never asked around here. Perhaps I should approach her about this, and renegotiate now (maybe she'd be fine with less, and we'd both be happier?).

    If I go on about why she owes life value to me (which I am accepting as CAD), I think you guys will tell me to move out. There are a few things stopping me from moving out, though. Like the excitement of moving out for the first time with my girlfriend, costs (even accounting for current monthly expenses, I'd still end up paying a heck of a lot more), and simply the life I'd live (I would be living in another city away from my girlfriend, and it would be very difficult for us to hang out since it would be hard to commute to and fro). I don't think I do want to move out, but if pushed in a corner, I would probably do that before paying my mom. I can kind of compare my situation to choosing to leave your job, but waiting to get laid off for benefits, instead of quitting. My life here isn't too bad anymore because for the most part, I'm in my locked room, she's sleeping or listening to those make money videos with her headphones, or I'm not home. I'm indepedent enough for her decisions to have little to no impact on me. If I had to deal with her all the time, I would really consider leaving.

    My mom reminded me yesterday why I don't pay her, and these kinds of things would happen if I was paying her. I had an interview at 3. She had to go somewhere at 3 too, and we both needed a drive from my dad. She said "I don't know why you made your appointment at 3, you know I always go out at 3 on Saturdays [no I don't, and that wasn't at the top of my mind when I was having a phone interview with the guy earlier that morning]. You might have to be late". We had to go pick up her 2 friends before going to my interview. They went to a bar and listened to music. They did not have to be there for 3. I was late for the interview. Getting to a bar for 3, as opposed to 3:10 is definitely more important. My mom has done some really messed up things. Three things that come to mind are the time she called me in her room to have a 'talk' about how she's going to kill herself tonight. The second being the numerous accounts of physical abuse (I remember times when she slapped me across my face and head repeatedly, and threw a plate my my brother during dinner [this was when he left home the first time]. The abuse only stopped when I was stronger than her; one day she tried to swing, and I grabbed her wrist to stop it, and squeezed pretty tightly) The third being the time I was woken up by her best friend who needed to talk to me because she was concerned about my mom, who went to her apparently scared, because I tried to stab her. It was so ridiculous I didn't even want to be a part of that situation and conversation, nor justify the fact that I didn't try to stab my mom [sadly, I did have this conversation though. I made her look like a fool with my INTJ reasoning, and she ended up changing her story]. I /really/ think she has a mental health issue but will not accept help. I have never met anybody like this woman. I don't want to give her my money.

    ---

    Regarding asset allocation, I've heard people say such things as:
    "I don't believe that a bond ladder or indeed any kind of bond position is appropriate for a person of your young age, with your high career security, strong income prospects going forward, and relatively tiny startup portfolio which is directly related to your youth. I'd say zero bonds at this time."
    and
    "If we were living in a more typical investment climate, I would go with conventional wisdom and keep my portfolio as it is (45% bonds/ 55% stocks). The only reason I am questioning this is not because I think this is a bad ratio, but because interest rates are at an all-time low, and can only go up from here. When they inevitably do, 45% of my portfolio (which I plan to retire on in about 8 years) may take a massive hit. Similarly, if I increase my stock exposure, volatility can derail my retirement plans."

    I tend to agree with these, but that is speculation. Avoiding speculation is the reason why I haven't underweighted bonds even more, even though I am indeed still speculating by modifying the original at all.

    Beyond that, I think my biggest concern about the PP would be entry point. I've heard to just buy it all outright, and thats the point. Anything else is an attempt to predict the future.

    There seems to be an emerging pattern of thought. Most of my concerns with the PP are due to me trying to speculate (me thinking I understand the market, pfft). I wonder if I really should just keep it simple and stick to the 4x25, and buy it all when I decide to invest rather than trying to time each asset for a better entry point. I may just be shooting myself in the foot by modifying the original. And, as well said by KevinW, "making tweaks like that can be a slippery slope toward changes that do indeed cause problems, which is for me a compelling argument to use the pure PP". The biggest risk I am prepared to take right now is 80% PP and 20% VP, so I will strike a balance between that and 100% PP.

    I've also been thinking about where to keep my investments. I think I'll max out my TFSA, then either put the rest into an RRSP or a high interest savings account (referred to as HISA from now on). I could sign up for an online bank such as Ally or ING to grab some higher interest rates. What do you guys recommend in this area? Maybe fellow Canadians would have more relevant experience with this.

    ---

    @akratic:
    Glad you liked Master of Fortresses, though I find that to be buggy and not too proud of it. I will outdo myself with MoF2 :-). We are also aware of Green Jackets being OP, due to the range. Among other things. You'd be surprised how flooded your feedback gets when millions play the game! We have addressed this in MoF2, and our most recent blog post (Optimum Range) talks about this: http://spacecatstudios.com/

    I'd love to help you get into flash game programming (at a minimum, I want to pay forward the help that two people gave me early on). My favourite resource is the Adobe Live Docs: http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FlashPlatform/reference/actionscript/3/index.html. Other than that, just Google. I've never been a regular reader of a flash site, nor do I know of a site for lots of great info. I have read many web pages on optimizing flash to squeeze performance out of it, and here is a nice one: http://help.adobe.com/en_US/as3/mobile/flashplatform_optimizing_content.pdf

    What are you trying to bridge between the timeline and actionscript for? I like to think of the timeline as an animator's tool, and not really used by programmers. My tools of choice are Flash CS 5.5 and Flash Develop. I generally make a new .fla using CS 5.5, and only use the IDE for things such as creating library items with linkages I can use in code. I give the .fla a document class (usually Main.as), and in there I do the rest. A game can end up with lots of .as files, and nearly nothing on the timeline (though I admit sometimes I use it for preloaders, splash screens, then the .as files kick in to add the main menu to stage).

    You can PM me, or add me to MSN (or Skype may be better, since I use that at my day job: iProgramStuff). We can get a working game loop set up for you :-)

    Posted 9 months ago #
24. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 915

    I wouldn't feel comfortable enough in you situation to stay at home. But I must say that I dig you. You are in fact saving money for them. It seems very likely that they will need your help in the future. I think they would be in fact much better if you could just take over all of their finances, not only that 150 bucks. I bet you would be reasonable to them and maybe even give a bingo allowance to your mother. But because controlling other people's will by force is not something I would like to do, I would not be able to do this and I don't think you should. But I really see your reasoning.

    Posted 9 months ago #
25. 

    LiquidSapphire
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 434

    So just some food for thought.

    You have been living in such an unhealthy living situation for so long, I wonder if you don't fully realize how toxic/stressful it is. Clearly you do to some extent, but I wonder if you somehow have normalized it or somehow feel that you have "gotten used to it" when really all you have done is gotten used to constant stream of stress in your life. Just because you do not notice it anymore doesn't mean it is not there. Much like a frog initially placed in a pot of lukewarm water, with the temperature gradually warmed up... he doesn't even realize he is boiling to death until he is already dead.

    If your mom is really as unstable as you claim, I would be out of there ASAP. Imagine this: She flips out one time, claims you hacked into all of her bank accounts, calls the cops, they arrest you for computer trespassing. You are eventually cleared, but that arrest is on your record for life. You will never, ever, get a government security clearance for life, nor any type of job that requires special care of data.

    So this is one example loosely based on someone I actually know (yes he was denied the clearance and none of this was his fault, at all) but it just takes your mom going a little bit too psycho just one time to have an everlasting impact on your life. There are a million things she could do that could negatively impact you. Living with such a high risk person is not worth saving $500/mo or whatever rent would cost you. ERE principles are not about taking huge risks just to save a bit of cash. That, along with the clearly stressful situation, I'd move out ASAP.

    Posted 9 months ago #
26. 

    Spartan_Warrior
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 500

    Yeah, @LS, great point. This gets crazier and crazier. Now that I've heard more, I would add "risk" to the list of ERE values this situation violates. ;)

    Posted 9 months ago #
27. 

    C40
    

    Master
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 572

    I'm with Liquid and Spartan. Get out of there! To be honest, when reading your posts describing how crazy your family is, I've been wondering if you are a bit out of it yourself (mainly because you consider it normal enough to still live there, but also because of how you talk in circles about why you decided not to pay your rent)

    By age, you're an adult now - a man. You have the means to live on your own. The more time you spend in your current situation, the more normal it will feel. And it should not ever feel anything like normal.

    Posted 9 months ago #
28. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    I think I talk in circles because I fully understand and agree with the pay rent or get out argument, and almost decided to pay her because of this. I do agree that my reasons against paying her should be reasons against that barter. But they are not, so maybe, as spartan said, I am having a hard time convincing myself that not paying her is right based on the circumstances of our relationship. But I have really written personal things that until now, only me, my dad, and girlfriend knew about it to try to get these circumstances across to you guys.

    I do wonder the affect she is having on me...just like the polluted city air that affects every breath I take. I want to reiterate what I said before: "If I had to deal with her all the time, I would really consider leaving". These days we talk less, and largely ignore each other. If she was always as 'in my face' as she used to be, I'd move out. Though, I will consider it..but not sure what to do. I wonder if it's a good idea for me to live in an RV? :p Then I can easily commute back and forth, and have a place to live. It would be a complete life change though, but maybe cheaper and have advantages over a room in Burlington and commuting to my girlfriends (or a room in Hamilton, and commuting to work). Alternatively, quit my internship in Burlington, and take on more freelance work, and try to create multiple passive income streams, a la http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/07/10-reasons-you-should-never-get-a-job/ and simply live in Hamilton (since I will be going to University in Hamilton for 8 more months, in 13 months)

    I see what you mean about this feeling normal, and that is a scary thought, haha. I think this is happening/has happened.

    I truly hope I am not crazy. :-)

    Posted 9 months ago #
29. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    A small milestone was hit today :-)

    I've been paid today, and after my subsequent deposit into my savings account, I broke the $10,000 savings mark. That is nice on its own. But, what makes it a bit more significant is that it is the threshold amount in order to take advantage of a promotional offer from Questrade. I've almost fully set up my accounts with them (TFSA and a Margin account), and I will be depositing $10,000 soon to get 100 free trades. So breaking the $10,000 threshold means I'm going to officially start investing! Exciting :-)

    Posted 9 months ago #
30. 

    GPMagnus
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jun '12
    Posts: 100

    Great stuff iProgram ;) feel proud of your accomplishment. I look forward to hearing about the next zero in your journey ...

    Posted 9 months ago #
31. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    My financial activity for August is over - and here are my stats!

    Transportation $230.79
    Food $179.92
    Housing $0.00
    Recreational $420.00
    Entertainment $0.00
    Rodney $24.76
    Clothes $0.00
    Gardening $181.38
    Cell Phone $22.60
    Bicycle $0.00
    Contingencies $0.00
    Munchies $4.50
    Gifts $55.24
    Other $236.03
    FI Expenses $1,355.22

    Evertz $4,486.71
    PhilM $414.00
    Flash $0.00
    Other $22.75
    Investment Income $0.00
    JohnM $214.50

    FI Income $5,137.96
    FI Savings $3,782.74

    % spent 26.38%
    % saved 73.62%

    TOTAL INCOME: $16,250.75
    TOTAL SAVINGS: $11,079.79
    TOTAL % SPENT: 31.82%
    TOTAL % SAVED: 68.18%

    I am now the proud owner of XIC, ZFL and ZFS, and GTU.UN. I have also finishd the ERE book and will now be passing it on. :-)

    At this savings rate, I'll be ERE in 11 years but hopefully I'll be able to make that even lower. It would be nice to retire before 30 (I'm 21.8, so 8.2 years). That may be a hard goal if I end up travelling or having a kid, but I will probably be working on the road and doing it on an extreme budget. And as Jacob has said, having a child doesn't need to be that expensive. Looking forward to seeing what the future holds.

    Posted 8 months ago #
32. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    Alright, and that is another month closer to Financial Independence!

    Transportation $190.00
    Food $74.38
    Housing $0.00
    Recreational $5.90
    Entertainment $0.00
    Rodney $0.00
    Clothes $0.00
    Gardening $39.49
    Cell Phone $22.60
    Bicycle $0.00
    Contingencies $0.00
    Munchies $100.86
    Gifts $108.67
    Other $498.49
    FI Expenses $1,040.39

    Evertz $1,495.57
    PhilM $342.75
    Flash $0.00
    Other $0.00
    Investment Income $0.00
    JohnM $0.00

    FI Income $1,838.32
    FI Savings $797.93

    % spent 56.59%
    % saved 43.41%

    TOTAL INCOME: $18,089.07
    TOTAL SAVINGS: $11,855.44
    TOTAL % SPENT: 34.46%
    TOTAL % SAVED: 65.54%

    It has certainly been an interesting month. I am still learning a lot of stuff and my life is ever evolving. The reason behind the large "Other" expense is a used Vitamix 5200 I bought off eBay for $425 shipped. I expect to use this more than once a day on average (Morning green smoothies, and other uses like nut butters, milks, soups, etc..). I have been chatting it up with some realtors and have toured some houses. I have been pre approved for a mortgage ($156,180 25 year amortization at 3.19% 5 year fixed). I have started a blog where I will write about things that interest me. I have invested just over $12k and have made a profit of $300 so far using the permanent portfolio. My real estate plan is to buy a duplex or triplex and live in one of the units while renting out the others. This will also allow me to get away from my questionable situation and increase my wealth at a faster rate (if things go well). I might have more to say about this next month!

    Posted 7 months ago #
33. 

    iProgramStuff
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '12
    Posts: 35

    I'm still very much interested in this, but it seems like public interest has fallen off. I will continue this if anyone is reading, but otherwise I think I may stop posting all of this publicly on these forums.

    Posted 6 months ago #
34. 

    George the original one
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,938

    Oh, we're reading!

    Posted 6 months ago #
35. 

    C40
    

    Master
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 572

    Yes, we are reading... We might not be saying a lot, but we're still interested.

    Posted 6 months ago #
36. 

    secretwealth
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 1,505

    I feel the same way about my journals, but trust me--we're reading. I think journals are the sort of thing that everyone reads, but no one posts because there isn't much to say. But it's still very, very interesting. At the end of the day, what unites us all is the hope of pushing our savings rate up as high as it can go.

    Posted 6 months ago #
37. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 915

    Keep at it, sometimes you will receive tips from people that will make it worth it.

    I confess that I just skim over the numbers most of the time, but other than the numbers it's always nice to see how others are progressing. It's encouraging and we learn in the process.

    Posted 6 months ago #
38. 

    Able was I ERE
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jan '12
    Posts: 32

    I definitely read with interest, but rarely comment. Think of it as marking a trail for others to follow and learn from. You may think you're alone in the wilderness, but your tracks will help others from getting lost, and help encourage those already making the journey.

    Posted 6 months ago #
39. 

    Marlene
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 150

    Yep - I´m also reading; Journal reading inspires me - keep it up please (everyone).

    Posted 6 months ago #
40. 

    rube
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Oct '12
    Posts: 80

    And don't forget the people that are not registered and can't let you know they are reading! So just continue with your journal.

    Posted 6 months ago #

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