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1. 

   riparian
   

   Master
   Joined: Oct '11
   Posts: 341

   Not that electronic money in databases that live somewhere out on the Internet isn't real - as long as everyone agrees it is and has electricity - but what if I wanted to invest my money into a real physical thing that I could see, touch, and keep in my shed or safe deposit box? What would that be? Gold? Silver? Guns?

   Someone suggested buying millions of forever stamps and selling them in five years. There's gotta be a better way.

   I really don't mean this in the crazy prepper way it might sound - I just feel like once I've made money and paid taxes on it once the government (or whoever) doesn't need to be able to track what I've done with it.

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. 

   jennypenny
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '11
   Posts: 1,338

   Guns can be a good investment. Just do a little research to see which ones hold their value best. (plus they're more fun to play with than gold or stamps ;)

   If your laws are anything like here the government will still know what you have. Even when you buy gold from a dealer here a form gets filed. The only thing they don't seem to track is cash.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. 

   zarathustra
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Apr '12
   Posts: 60

   I read somewhere that the "forms" for gold purchases don't get filled out unless the total purchase is over 3k or something. Is that not the case? This site suggested spreading the purchase over several days if you were going to buy a larger sum of Gold.

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. 

   riparian
   

   Master
   Joined: Oct '11
   Posts: 341

   Like money orders. When I got my truck I had to go to do many post offices over 2 days to get all the money orders without having to fill out the terrorist form. Which of course is what a real terrorist would do too. *sigh*

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. 

   secretwealth
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jun '11
   Posts: 1,505

   Art tends to maintain its value very well, but you need a lot of expertise to recognize which artists will appreciate and which will not. It's definitely a high-risk/high-reward form of speculation.

   Likewise, antiques. I remember when I was a kid and you could buy Danish modern furniture from thrift stores for $10. Nowadays the same pieces sell for ten times as much, if not more, thanks to the minimalist retro mid-century modern craze. Identify the next craze and you can make a lot of cash.

   I'm also interested in investing in real things, but I've had difficulties figuring out what else to buy. I think gold is the purest form of hard, physical asset, but there's also silver, copper, and platinum. I think copper has appreciated more than any other asset but gold, although storage is tricky.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. 

   George the original one
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 1,938

   Real estate, timber, and other commodities... with stocks, you could ask for the certificate instead of holding it in the brokerage.

   The problem with "things" is that unless you can rent them out, they're not terribly liquid. You have to find a buyer when you want to convert the thing into a useable currency.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. 

   riparian
   

   Master
   Joined: Oct '11
   Posts: 341

   Something less traceable than real estate or timber tho. What would batman invest in? :)

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. 

   C40
   

   Master
   Joined: Feb '11
   Posts: 573

   I think Batman owns a corporation.

   Yes.. Wayne Industries.

   Wayne Technologies
   Wayne Biotech
   Wayne Foods
   Wayne Shipping
   Wayne Steel
   Wayne Yards
   Wayne Aerospace
   Wayne Chemicals
   Wayne Industries (including fission and fusion research, and Wayne Mining)
   Wayne Medical
   Wayne Electronics
   Wayne Entertainment.

   Gosh... no wonder he has all those toys.

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. 

   KevinW
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 576

   Tools and timely education, that are actually used, can have a much higher ROI that financial investments. Ex.: bicycle, handkerchiefs, straight razor, ERE book, cookbook.

   Homesteading projects produce a yield that doesn't go through the economic system. Ex.: vegetable garden, chicken flock, fish pond, woodlot.

   You can park money in precious metals, collectibles, commodities, or paper cash. In the long run there's no reason to expect these to appreciate above inflation.

   Supervillains always demand bearer bonds, but I don't know whether those exist anymore.

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. 

    mikeBOS
    

    Master
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 554

    Liquor. Wines and ports work too, but need to be kept at a constant temperature. Though if you had a large cellar that might work well.

    Bottles or barrels (depending on how much work you want to do) of scotch, whiskey, that get better with age.

    Actually that works well in a number of ways. In a doomsday scenario it's a good source of calories and morale-boosting, plus a good trade item. And if things stay civilized, they'll increase in monetary value as they mellow out.

    The illiquidity of the liquid, and need for storage space and security, seems to be the biggest downsides.

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. 

    J_
    

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 353

    With the location of you in mind (long cold periods, abundance of space I suppose) I suggest you buy an old beautifull little sportscar, conserve its motor with grease here and there and put it in a sturdy shed. On summerdays you can have a look at it and sit on its leather chairs. Meanwhile it keeps its value and perhaps increases some.
    The buying and transporting to your place is perhaps an adventure in itself.
    Edit
    What I mean is can you use your special climate (ideal to conserve things I suppose) to your goal :invest in real things?

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. 

    Dragline
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 959

    This is an age-old question that is usually cited as one of the reasons money was invented. It always came down to issues of storage and perishability. Wealth was originally kept in the form of grain, livestock or sometimes weapons in some cultures. Salt and spices were other options. But people mostly gravitated towards silver and gold because it is easier to store and does not perish (very easily).

    Gold, frankincense and myrrh has always been a classic asset allocation.

    But if you are storing anything precious and portable on your property keep it a secret. Such information has long been an invitation for thievery and worse, from ancient grave robbers to modern thugs like the ones who shot Sean Taylor, the football player. They thought he had riches stashed in his house. No object of wealth is worth dying for.

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. 

    riparian
    

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 341

    @secretwealth, I actually have some probably valuable art, but I can't figure out how to get money for it.

    @Dragline, I wouldn't really keep it in my shed! I don't even leave my laptop or guns home alone. LOL

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. 

    chenda
    

    Master
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 370

    Ancient (or later) coins might be a good option, particularly if you have an interest in history. There's a very active market buying and selling on ebay. The nice thing about this is you can easily add value to them by buying a bag of uncleaned coins and cleaning and identifying them - easy to do with a bit of research and elbow greese. Might make a nice ebay business as well if you wanted.

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. 

    Maus
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 504

    Peppercorns. If kept sealed in a dark place, they'll last for ages. They have a good value to density ratio. I stocked up for Y2K, and I'm still using them.

    Ammunition. Guns keep their value until they run out of bullets. Stick to common calibers, e.g. 9mm, .45, .38, .223, etc. Avoid humidity (keep your powder dry).

    If you want a low-key bullion play, keep U.S. pennies made before 1982. They are 95% copper and currently worth $.024 each (240% over face value). See http://coinflation.com/

    Probably lots of other niches, but I'm less of doomer now than I used to be.

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. 

    DVDend
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 87

    I semi-rational dream for me is to buy a barrel of Scotch to be stored at the distillery for next ten years. It should hold its value against inflation but realistically it cannot be called investment any more than gold or other non-productive asset.

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. 

    abzu
    

    Novice
    Joined: Apr '12
    Posts: 16

    Yeah, Batman doesn't invest in anything. He uses his alterego Bruce Wayne to do that. It's why the government can't track him.

    Buying and selling ancient coins and artifacts on eBay etc you're contributing to a black market and causing increased demand for grave robbers and the destruction of archaeological sites. Please don't do that as it's bad for our human heritage.

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. 

    larry
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 88

    Historical US coins with low mintage:

    US Large cents with mintage under 3,000,000. Early copper coins wore very easily and many are gone forever. Available in better grades from 30 to 100 dollars. Starting to gain collector and investor interest.

    Early Silver dimes, quarters, halves.

    Pre-1964 US silver face value coinage. Easily recognizable as valuable. $24.00 per $1 face value. You can lower your average costs if you buy a little bit at a time over several years.

    Plan on getting a home safe or safety deposit box.

    Guns are good too. When I was younger, (early 1990's) you could get Chinese SKS rifles, new in the box, for $89.00 each. I only bought one. Deals like that can double or triple your money over 20 years. But, you must have a safe, stable place to store them.

    Larry

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. 

    Scott 2
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Feb '12
    Posts: 189

    Collectibles only have the value people ascribe to them. In a scenario where you have to turn to locally housed valuables, I doubt you'll find many buyers for an ancient coin. Guns, ammo, food, medical supplies, alcohol, etc. are what will be valuable.

    For the more realistic non-doomsday scenario, I would still shy away from collectibles. When you get into high value items, there is a huge learning curve before you have an effective investment. Lotta people out there are looking to take advantage of the uneducated. I spent a few years working for a company whose sole purpose was to act as a third party authenticator / grader for collectibles. I would never treat them as in investment. Also, transactions over a certain dollar amount have to be reported by dealers, complicating the sales process.

    IMO the whole idea of housing significant wealth at home is overboard. Too many problems related to authentication, storage, protection, sale, transportation, etc. I think precious metals like silver and gold are the best you can do. Silver is too heavy to store significant value and tarnishes easily in storage. Physical gold is about all you have left. I own none and would be unlikely to buy it. I do not fear a doomsday scenario and think the trade offs otherwise are too high.

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. 

    jennypenny
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 1,338

    I realize this is probably an inappropriate question to ask but...do any of you store cash? Inflation eats away at cash, but with yields on cash equivalents <1% it seems worth it to me to have cash that's under the radar.

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. 

    C40
    

    Master
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 573

    @Abzu - so it's better to just leave them in the ground? (Serious question). Or is your statement aimed more at the destruction of other things (buildings) at archaeological sites?

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. 

    George the original one
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,938

    @jennypenny - Cash hoards, if they're discovered by law enforcement, are often taken as evidence of drug running or racketeering. Judges and juries are easily swayed by the argument that no reasonable person would keep such large cash sums.

    Of course that argument fails if you're a gambler in Vegas...

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,295

    See "Alpha Strategy" by J. Pugsley. It makes sense to store "big supplies" during high inflation eras.

    In general, aim for high value/weight items that is priced mainly by the amount of skilled-labor input (so no electronics!!). Guns, precision tools (Snap-on, Starrett, fishing reels, Lie Nielsen,...). Note though, even something like $10,000 will easily become quite heavy when converted into tools no matter what---even $300 calipers.

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. 

    larry
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 88

    Scott,

    Yes, collectibles are only worth what others will pay. However, I think you have to decide what you think the most likely scenario is for the future of this country and the world. Do you believe we are heading for a total wasteland, full of roving hoards, raping and pillaging along the way? If so, then coins of any type won't be near as valuable as guns, ammo, food, medical supplies, alcohol, etc.

    However if you think we're heading in the other direction, prosperity, technological advancements, living to 200, cancer cured, power so cheap it can't even be metered, then rare coins of historical value can have their place in a diversified portfolio of investments.

    The truth is that the future probably lies somewhere between those two extremes, and a prudent person hedges their bets for both situations.

    I would be cautious and never overweight my investment portfolio too heavy in one thing.

    Larry

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. 

    Dragline
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 959

    @Jenny -- Don't ask!

    @George -- the gambling opportunities abound these days. ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. 

    Scott 2
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Feb '12
    Posts: 189

    @Larry - I do not anticipate nor prep for a doomsday scenario. I have no guns, gold, or collectibles. All I'd have of value in that event is some whisky, but I'd be too busy drinking it to sell it!

    My problem with collectibles as an investment has little to do with where I think the country is headed. My issue is the volume of knowledge needed to successfully buy/sell. It's huge. I can tell you right now some of the posts in this thread convey ignorance around coin collecting that is commonly exploited by people on ebay and unscrupulous dealers.

    Cleaning a coin dramatically reduces the value, for instance.

    Buying on ebay? Watch out for chinese counterfits - they are getting extremely good, down to fake wear to produce believable grades.

    Gonna pay a premium for beautiful toning? Better learn how to recognize artificial toning first. Your stunner might be worthless, because the toning was faked.

    Think you can grade? The difference between a point or two in grade can be many multiples in value. Sure hope you can get it right and articulate why well enough to convince other buyers and sellers.

    The list goes on and on. People that can sucessfully judge collectible coins get very solid salaries for the expertise. They are professional numismatists. That's right - the skills are so specialized, a person can base their entire career on them. There are even Phd's in the field.

    Do you know how to store a coin without having it degrade with time? There is more to it than just popping a coin into an album. Start with encapsulation, then prepare to maintain a temperature and humidity controlled environment. Whatever you do, don't touch it! The oils on your fingers can etch the surface and drop the grade, or even worse, cause damage that makes the coin ungradable.

    Oh, and the collectibles market is almost entirely unregulated...

    IMO stay far far away, unless you love the collectibles as a hobby. In my experience though, most hobbiests put far more money in than they ever take out, because they become too attached to their collection.

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. 

    abzu
    

    Novice
    Joined: Apr '12
    Posts: 16

    @C40-

    No, I'm not saying to leave things in the ground. I'm saying that there's a big difference between a legitimate archaeological excavation, where everything is catalogued and studied and published, and a robbery that destroys any items they can't sell and rips apart buildings without any knowledge gained from it, also leaving the site ruined for further study, all for the profit of the robbers. Anything that's ancient Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Chinese, Mayan, etc on eBay is either fake or stolen.

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. 

    larry
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 88

    Scott,

    I agree that collectibles are a very specialized and "troublesome" market for some. I personally would never put more than one to two percent of my investment portfolio into "rare" coins.

    I don't buy any other kind of collectible. No Franklin mint limited edition collectors plates for me.

    But, I do see a place, albeit limited, for coins. Yes, I have read about the Chinese fakes and how good they are getting. Scary really, especially when in fake PCGS holders. I'm sure you can get screwed pretty easily, with the high dollar purchases.

    I have not ever spent more than $40 for a single coin. I usually buy non-graded examples.

    Recently:

    1806,1813,1814,1821 large cents in good, very good, fine

    Pre 1965 face value silver coinage

    I think eBay can be both a blessing and a curse. It does provide an easy resale market and help to ensure that you can get a decent price for things from multiple bidders. The downside of course are the "scams" perpetuated on the naive.

    I've bought and sold on eBay for years and have not been truly disappointed yet.

    I appreciate your input on coins. You sound like you have "been there and done that". It's always good to get opinions from others and consider those in your investment decisions process.

    Larry

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. 

    chenda
    

    Master
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 370

    Anything that's ancient Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Chinese, Mayan, etc on eBay is either fake or stolen.

    There is a legal and legitimate market in ancient artifacts, although like any market there is a black market element. In the UK, for example, ancient artifacts found may be sold privately, provided they're not deemed to be of national importance, in which case they must be offered to a museum at the market price. I take you point about the risk of encouraging illegal gravediggers, but museums don't have the resouces to preserve all artifacts, so it could be argued a legal and regulated private market can help preserve things.

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. 

    Christopherjart
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Apr '12
    Posts: 191

    @jenny

    Storing cash can be dangerous. A student told me a story of how a relative kept all of his cash in his home. He had enough to live off of for a few month in cash. Unfortunately there was a fire. He lost everything including the money that he needed.

    I normally only keep the cash I plan to spend that month and perhaps half a month more.

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. 

    Maus
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 504

    I echo @Scott2's advice re: coin collecting. I was an avid collector in the '70s & '80s and "invested" a few thousand in assemblying a U.S. Type Set in XF or better grades. I also focused on foreign large coppers, which many U.S. dealers had no idea how to grade or price.

    In '88 I sold most of the collection to a dealer in San Francisco as a prelude to entering the monastery. He cherry picked the foreign stuff, but took all the U.S. type coins. Total net: $900.
    I didn't care much as I was a hobbyist and willing at that time to take a vow of poverty, so money didn't factor in the transaction. I really just wanted to make certain that these coins got conserved through the market forces of dealers.

    Fast forward to '95. I am out of the monastery and decently employed. But I never returned to coin collecting, aside from the very occasional foreign acquisition (like minature time capsules of history). It is just too expensive a hobby and certainly far too volatile as an investment vehicle.

    Posted 1 year ago #
32. 

    riparian
    

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 341

    So, gold bars would keep up with inflation and not degrade over time?

    Posted 1 year ago #
33. 

    Scott 2
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Feb '12
    Posts: 189

    Larry - I worked on the website and forums for one of the grading companies. I kept my purchases relatively small, building just enough of a collection to understand their business. When I stopped, I sold everything. Fortunately most of what I had bought was modern silver. The spot price ran up quite a bit while I was working there, so I came out of my collecting experience a few hundred bucks ahead.

    If you are buying coins for investment purposes, I would encourage testing your expertise, either by trying to sell one of them, or getting a few of your nicer coins graded by PCGS or NGC. The only "sure" money I saw for non-experts was trying to "make" 70's via bulk grading submissions or by flipping "one per household" limited quantity mint releases (like the ultra high relief double eagle that came out in 2009) to dealers. These are definitely not long term investment scenarios. I always cringed a little for the modern collectors that "only buy 70's..." If I was going to buy/sell, I would lean towards the PCGS or NGC forums over ebay.

    Riparian - In the long run, gold should keep up with inflation and will not degrade. The challenge is at any moment in time, like any commodity, gold might be over or under valued. Is the current spot price too high? I suspect it is, but I have no defensible argument for my belief. Nor do I know how to diversify away that risk while investing solely in physical assets. From what I saw, people investing in physical precious metals tend to do so as a small portion of a larger, mostly electronic portfolio.

    I do admit, it was fun when I had silver coins to hold in my hands. It felt like holding "real" money. I bet gold would feel even better. Sticking 10 grand in handful of coins though... I just can't get past the associated risks.

    Posted 1 year ago #
34. 

    riparian
    

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 341

    And you can easily sell it anytime?

    Jacob, thanks, I downloaded the book but must finish my overdue inter library loan books first.

    Posted 1 year ago #
35. 

    Scott 2
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Feb '12
    Posts: 189

    My experience selling was limited to a small amount of silver. I called around to a few local coin dealers, found the one paying the best price per ounce, then traded my coins for cash. From what I recall, I got around spot, which is not great. Typically you pay a small premium over spot when buying a coin.

    I expect selling physical gold (especially legal tender like american gold eagles) would be easy in my area, but I live in wealthy suburbs of a major city. Dealers have reporting requirements for cash transactions over a certain dollar amount, so doing large transactions under the radar might be a little harder.

    You'll get better prices buying / selling from individuals, but you are also taking on additional risk. I was not concerned about my transactions being traceable, so I bought from apmex:

    http://www.apmex.com/

    I would be surprised if a local dealer beats the apmex buy/sell spread, but it gives a good idea what to look for. Prices on physical metals do not track spot price perfectly. They tend to be a little higher, in my experience.

    Posted 1 year ago #
36. 

    pss
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 2

    My 2 cents on investing in "real" things: some relatives of mine purchased many dozens of expensive antique Persian rugs back in the 70's and 80's. This (along with other antiques) was supposed to be the backbone of their retirement portfolio. Their value has plummeted since then, apparently they're out of fashion now, as are antiques in general. It's not that they weren't knowledgeable about the market, they were. It's just that type of market is a lot more faddish than one would expect, and demand (and thus prices) are way down.

    Posted 1 year ago #
37. 

    riparian
    

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 341

    Jacob! I just read that book and he totally says all the things I've always thought! Except that I find services to be preferable to products and I never figured out what to do after buying all the things I'll need for the rest of my life. Thanks!

    Posted 1 year ago #
38. 

    jzt83
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 146

    I'd say invest in highly useful stuff that provides you with great utility. Forget antiques and collectibles that sit and just look pretty with unpredictable appreciation/depreciation rates.

    Posted 1 year ago #
39. 

    tylerrr
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 200

    what about land? I've been thinking land would be a good place to put some of my money because i can live on it, grow food, and possibly sell some of the food or barter with it.

    Anyone agree with purchasing land?

    Posted 1 year ago #
40. 

    Christopherjart
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Apr '12
    Posts: 191

    I've been thinking about buying some land to build and grow on. We just have to consider additional costs like transportation costs.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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