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Thoughts on ERE abroad

(71 posts)
  1. secretwealth

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    I just got back from a trip to Thailand, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but I've become more skeptical about it as an ERE destination for a few reasons.

    1. Visa issues. You need to deposit over $200k in a Thai bank account to get a retirement visa, or prove an income source of over $2k/mo. to the satisfaction of the immigration officers. For most ERErs, the former would kill the yield potential and the latter would be rather difficult to do.

    2. Cost of living. Apartments that would be considered luxury units in America can be had for $500/mo. or even less, and the quality/price ratio of restaurant foods in Thailand blows America and most developed nations out of the water. I ate the best noodles in my life in a small restaurant for $1.30 per person. In general, services are cheaper, but since ERE is a lot about self-reliance, I don't see how cheap taxis, massages, and restaurant meals really fit into the ERE sensibility. When it comes to buying food at supermarkets, cooking at home, and living frugally, I don't see how a relocation to Thailand would knock more than $100-$200/mo. off of monthly living expenses, but it is true that housing costs are much lower, especially if you opt for a studio (prices in Bangkok can go down to $200/mo.) or live in a Thai-style home. That saved money would probably be spent on the next problem:

    3. Visa runs. If you can't get the normal retiree visa, you will have to do visa runs (i.e., leaving the country and re-entering) or essentially buying a one-year education visa, which will only last for one year. The former will cost at least $50/mo. if you live near the boarders to the north; the latter will cost at least $1000 for a year, and is a short-term solution. I wouldn't feel comfortable having to leave my home every two weeks to face an immigration officer who might reject my entry. It's just not a stable option IMO.

    4. Utility costs. Thailand is hot and air conditioning is inevitable for just about anyone but the most cold blooded. I don't know how the Thais live with it year-round. This will add at least $100/mo. to your living expenses.

    5. Inflation. Thai's middle class is just beginning to come into its own, which means services will go up in price in the long-term. In the short-term, higher commodity prices thanks to increased demand is pushing up the prices of everything, and this is not going to stop. Remember, Japan was cheap 60 years ago. South Korea was cheap 30 years ago. Even Shanghai and Moscow are really expensive, if you want to live a first-world lifestyle.

    I don't think a person could live in Thailand for much less than the $7000/yr. that Jacob managed outside of San Francisco, so I think it's not an option for the sort of self-reliant ERE type person. I think it's better suited to people who want a short-cut to an upper middle class lifestyle on a lower middle class salary. For $2,000/mo., one can easily live in a luxurious condo, eat out every night, and party it up in Bangkok. The money would go much further in the countryside. I don't think this is very relevant to many ERErs.

    I DO think that Thailand is a good option for other reasons, though. The culture is amazing. The food is breathtaking. The people are truly kind and friendly to outsiders--while a lot of this is to get tourist money, not all of it is. The open, tolerant, polite culture is a breath of fresh air and has really put the country on my radar more than it ever was in the past. However, none of these are really ERE issues. It's a great culture as a culture, not as a penny-pinching option. IMO, life in rural Oregon costs about the same.

    I know there are some people who have spent a lot more time in Thailand than I have, so I'd love to hear their input. Thoughts on other countries are also very welcome.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. bigato

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    The visa is a big problem that should be solved. But I bet that you can liven on much less than that if you become involved with the local culture. You can adapt to live without air conditioning too.

    As an example, you could have a retirement in Brazil for even half the price of your similar retirement in USA.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. LonerMatt

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    I think your pricing for visa runs is pretty steep.

    If you were in Chiang Rai, or even Chiang Mai or Pai visa runs with tourist buses are about 900 baht, so $30, and the visa is free for a lot of countries.

    If it were regular I'm sure you could haggle them down to 6-700 baht every 30 days or so.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. chenda

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    I spent some time in Thailand a few years ago, I enjoyed it all especially the Chaing Mai and Pai area. But I agree, I would'nt see it as a long term ERE destination. The cost of living is likely to go up over the next few decades, and I don't think I would want to live in a completely different culture forever. And Thailand is politically very unstable.

    Could be a way though of reducing expenditure for a few years though while your nest egg compounds some more.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. secretwealth

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    Chenda--my wife and I were thinking the same exact thing. We might spend a year in Thailand in the near future while we let our investment interest compound a little. But I expect it will reach Taiwan-level prices in the next decade or two, if they can get their political issues under control.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. jacob

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    Five flags maybe? Find two tri-state borders (to reduce travel cost if it's an issue) and rotate between them?

    Having lived in three different countries (for 4+ years each) I find that being able to speak the language fluently (or quickly enter a trajectory where this will happen) and (related) being able to find other people who share one's values is the most important. The latter is somewhat lifestyle related, so the question is whether you can easily find someone living the way you want to in a given place/country.

    Also I find that regional differences tend to be larger than country differences (at least when it comes to the developed world).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. jacob

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    PS: Belize is the only country in South America that has English as its official language.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. jennypenny

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    Belize also has a fairly easy retirement visa program, and it's open to people over 45 and dependents are included (more suited to ERE/ER types).

    http://expatbelize.com/discover-belize/faqs.html

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. chenda

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    PS: Belize is the only country in South America that has English as its official language.

    Apart from Guyana, and numerous caribbean island states (if you consider them South rather than Central America ;)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. DividendGuy

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    I've considered retiring abroad as part of my ERE strategy multiple times and after significant research came to the conclusion that Thailand, unfortunately, is not particularly suited due to the Visa laws.

    The Philippines are much more friendly in this aspect. You can qualify for a resident Visa through the SRRV program at 35 years and older with a $20k time deposit. Not exactly chump change, but significantly less than the $200k quoted above for Thailand. Although the food isn't quite as attractive as Thailand, I have found that the Philippines can be much cheaper in many categories including rent. The Philippines appear to have an infrastructure not quite as developed as Thailand, but do appear more stable politically. As anything in life, pros and cons. English is pretty widely spoken in the Philippines, much more so than Thailand based on what I've learned.

    Ecuador also appears to be a good candidate. The dollar is the official currency which makes banking easier and the Visa rules are fairly easy to navigate.

    All in all though, I think that the cost savings for an ERE type person would not be great as secretwealth pointed out above. I agree that the biggest reason to retire to somewhere like the Philippines or Ecuador or somewhere else abroad would be the chance to live an upper middle class lifestyle on a lower middle class income. This will change in time as their middle classes rise, but it's hard to say how quickly those changes will come.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. DividendGuy

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    I forgot to mention in my above post that the biggest drawback to moving to somewhere like the Philippines, in my mind, would be cost prohibitive flights back home to see family or friends. The $2k flights would quickly eat into any savings you would find by living in a country like that. $2,000 stretched over even a year (if you only fly home for Christmas) would still be $166/mo, which is quite a bit for an ERE-type budget.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. jacob

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    Does anyone remember where Neil Strauss acquired his second citizenship in his Emergency book? (It involved something like buying real estate and putting down a big deposit/fee.)

    In terms of abroad, one of my main concerns is "is the given country going to be politically stable 50 years from now?" I must admit that I sometimes worry about this when it comes to the US, but I would worry even more for developing countries.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. secretwealth

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    I'd steer clear of the Philippines, from what I've heard of the country. Very low sanitation standards, a lot of desperate poverty, unreliable police, random acts of terrorism and violence in most parts of the country...it doesn't seem ready for prime time IMO.

    I agree with everything Jacob said--one of the additional problems with Thailand is that it seems to have roughly three types of expats:

    1. Young backpackers
    2. Sex tourists
    3. Old retirees

    While the first group can get fun, they are transient (and often pretty naive), so meaningful friendships won't last. The problem with the second group is self evident, I think. The third group can actually be quite interesting--a lot of the old people who retire to Thailand have great stories to tell, and are more adventurous than your typical midwestern suburbanite. But it still seems like a demographically limited social outlet.

    That being said, I did meet some great people when I was in Thailand. One woman was a 68yr old retiree who had lived 45 years in Thailand with her Thai husband. She had some fascinating stories indeed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. jacob

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    In terms of stability it also depends on how mobile one is. How easy is it to leave and bring one's assets along? Backpackers (or minimalist renters) have really good mobility. Homesteaders and owners have really poor mobility. Transients have an easy to living somewhere else. People who get involved in their local community/family for a long time have a harder time.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. jennypenny

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    "is the given country going to be politically stable 50 years from now?"

    Which countries would pass that test, and still provide and reasonable cost of living? (meaning Switzerland is out) And should countries as big as the US be judged as a whole, or by region?

    I guess my point is that by retiring to a country with a lower cost of living, you're almost certainly giving up stability in some form (social, economic, political).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. palmera

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    The sex tourist thing is what bothers me most about Thailand. I'd find it too sickening, not to mention the stigma attached to any dude over the age of 30 that travels to there.

    Jacob, I believe Neil Strauss' second passport is from St Kitt's and(/or) Nevis. It's a tax haven and if you have tens of thousands of dollars, you can easily get a second passport, according to the crib notes on his book.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. secretwealth

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    palmera: I can appreciate that, but I think Thailand is a pretty viable option if you can ignore people's ignorance and prejudice. When mentioning I was going to Thailand, a few people nodded and winked about ladyboys and prostitutes. I didn't are about the stigma these people may ascribe to me going to Thailand, because they're obviously too ignorant and small-minded to have an opinion worth caring about.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. palmera

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    I am often ignorant and small-minded if I don't know you. You shouldn't care though. Which I guess is what you're getting at.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. JohnnyH

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    Great post, secret. I think many people over-estimate their dollar abroad and under-estimate it at home (seems at home with arrogant attitude many in US have)... So many other things in the states that will be hard to give up: like being able to buy anything from groceries to car parts and have it on your door in 2 days... even if your in rural MT like me.

    I think about this often... 200k in Thailand (last coup d'état 2006) is a total deal breaker. So many countries have changed governments over the years and had many people lose everything.
    _______________________
    A complex question that likely wont have a one size fits all... A giant matrix is in order!

    Things that matter to me:
    LIVING: internet, cheap(er) produce, cheap(er) good alcohol,
    HOUSING: low property tax,
    GEOGRAPHIC: fairly fertile soil, no hot moist climates that require non-evaporative AC, cold temps fine (within reason) if wood is available (preferred) and/or heating is subsidized, within a few hours of international airport,
    POLITICAL: at least a generation of stability, smaller/secular/more liberty respecting government, more secular, citizen gun rights, some banking secrecy (not utterly IRS lapdog, or at least under radar).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. dot_com_vet

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    The idea of Belize was fascinating. Until you look at cost of living:

    http://www.belizeretirementguide.com/why_retire_to_belize.htm

    It doesn't seem that much different than the midwest USA. Bummer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. jennypenny

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    @dot_com_vet--true, but there aren't many great places to dive or windsurf in the Midwest :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. dot_com_vet

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    @JennyPenny, very true. I'm sure compared to somewhere like Hawaii, Belize is a bargain.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. secretwealth

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    I always find it amusing when these "Why retire to 3rd world country X" articles mention the cost of hiring a cook or maid. Yes, it is cheap, but why do these people want to hire servants anyway? It seems like moving to poorer countries is about indulging in a lower middle class fantasy of being rich than anything else.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. dot_com_vet

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    @secretwealth, I found that amusing too. "Go halfway around the world to hire a maid."

    The cost of housing really surprised me, seems pretty pricey.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Hoplite

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    I found an expat survey by a major bank (no link) that provided a curious ranking of expat destinations, with Thailand at the top. Curious until I looked at the questions. On economics, there were no cost of living questions, only things like "nice house", "nice car", servants, maids, cooks and boats. I know some that think a cheap massage is living well.

    However, for more down to earth info, the standard survey for cost of living city-to-city is put out by Mercer:
    http://www.mercer.com/press-releases/1311145

    On Belize, John McAfee (founder of the antivirus firm) was recently arrested in Belize on what he claims are bogus charges:
    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2404020,00.asp?google_editors_picks=true

    Everything is beautiful in an exotic locale, until it isn't.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. jennypenny

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    @Hoplite--geez, thanks for crushing my dreams of living in Belize. (the weirdest part of that article is that McAfee is a clone of my DH so whenever I see his picture I always get a little creeped out)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Hoplite

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    @jennypenny,
    Oops! Didn't mean to be a dream killer. On the bright side, I think he was singled out because of his wealth. I doubt that an ordinary expat would get that kind of treatment; no compound no raid :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. jacob

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    "It seems like moving to poorer countries is about indulging in a lower middle class fantasy of being rich than anything else."

    +1

    I vote for moving to a "richer" country where culture and technology or perhaps wisdom is leading. I live in the US mostly because it's the "cultural" center of the world. Two thousand years ago I would have lived in Rome.

    But to each their own. If restaurants and beaches are the driving force, I don't think my first choice would be Jersey Shore. (Even if Snookie did outsell me with her book.)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. dot_com_vet

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    I can't believe John McAfee is in such rough shape, yikes. They killed his dog, I'm staying away from Belize.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. secretwealth

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    I just want to point out that really horrible shit happens to innocent people in America, too. That being said, I won't be going to Belize anytime soon.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. george

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    "It seems like moving to poorer countries is about indulging in a lower middle class fantasy of being rich than anything else."

    +2

    I've seen people come out here from larger countries and marvel at what they can buy, and the lack of a class system, only to realise they thought they would become a big fish in a small pond, but its a lot of work to keep a big property, and noone gives a monkeys uncle what you own. Some do make the attitude change.

    But America the cultural centre of the world? I think we have different definitions of culture, I wonder if you're referring to technology and wisdom. I disagree with wisdom, technology I'm unsure. Technology development has gone global now IMO. But as you say, each to their own

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. secretwealth

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    I think it's impossible to disagree that America is the cultural center of the world. This doesn't mean America is BETTER than the rest of the world, but its popular culture is the basis for pretty much every other popular culture on Earth. Bollywood, Hong Kong movies, Japanese anime, Korean television shows, French rap, English rock...it's all deviations on American culture.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. J_

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    @secretwealth: I thought you wiser.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. BeyondtheWrap

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    @dot_com_vet "It doesn't seem that much different than the midwest USA. Bummer."

    This is something we don't really think about much living in the USA, but the Midwest is already pretty cheap as far as developed countries goes. Just look at this map: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/gmaps.jsp

    Yeah, there are a bunch of places that are a little cheaper, but is it really worth the hassle of moving and assimilating in a completely different culture? As mentioned before, the meager savings will probably be eaten up by flights home.

    Although I'm thinking of Midwest vs. developing country. I guess the savings would be greater if you're moving from, say, NYC to a developing country. But then why not just move to the Midwest? If you choose the developing country, it should be because you really like whichever country you're moving to.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. Chad

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    "I think it's impossible to disagree that America is the cultural center of the world. This doesn't mean America is BETTER than the rest of the world..."

    I complete agree with that.

    "..., but its popular culture is the basis for pretty much every other popular culture on Earth."

    Not so much with that. It's probably more accurate to say American culture heavily influences the culture in all other countries and no other culture has the same reach, rather than it being the base for other cultures.

    Concerning the initial question, I have thought about retiring abroad and came to the same conclusion...it's not really much cheaper unless you compare it to NYC, DC, etc.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. jacob

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    To make a very general statement: If one is looking for "random obscure subject/subculture/interest X", the probability of finding it is much higher in the US than almost any other country. Certainly for specific interests, specific countries apply.

    To see the obvious difference, note that in the US it's considered unusual/a goal for many to do something as exotic as visiting another country. That's because American's (and Russians---or maybe not so much anymore) don't need to because almost everything is found inside their borders. Conversely, in a smaller country, it would be highly unusual never to have visited another country for whatever reason.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. dot_com_vet

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    BeyondtheWrap, I definitely agree. I'm a Midwest native here, I think it's a great balance. Even the larger cities, like Chicago, are affordable.

    Ideally a small, college town here would allow one to have a lot of culture, bike everywhere, etc. Sounds ideal for ERE.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. secretwealth

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    Chad, that may be a more accurate phrasing of what I was going for. Now, it's important to point out that I'm making an observation about popular cultures, not traditional cultures, which are obviously quite diverse and pretty much all predate America. One could even argue that there is a worldwide tension between preserving traditional cultures and embracing the new American pop culture.

    @J_: If you'd like to give a more thought out response besides an ad hominem, I'd love to hear it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. aussierogue

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    I agree with jacob that america is the cultural center of the world. And by this i dont mean high culture (you know the snobby stuff) i mean trends. As the worlds only superpower this is to be expected. The USA is a wonderful place.

    I am not sure however about the inference that this is exemplified by the lack of interest by Americans to travel outside the borders.

    We make jokes about Tasmanians having never left the island state and that has less to do with 'being happy at home with utility" and more to do with an idea of ignorance. (its abit like southern jokes in the usa, or southern jokes in italy).

    Any country where the majority can vote george bush junior in for two terms, needs its inhabitants to travel more....not less!

    US of America may currently hold centre stage. I wish it could hold it for a hell of a lot longer but im not sure it can.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. jacob

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    @aussierogue - My point was that, at least so far, ordinary Americans can easily afford(*) to be entirely ignorant about what goes on beyond the borders. A smaller country's citizens can not.

    (*) Even if the rest of the world can not.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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