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Paul Graham essay "Why Nerds are Unpopular"

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  1. jennypenny

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    I've been reading this site for a while and hadn't seen this, so I thought it was worth it's own thread (Jacob posted it on another thread) http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
    If you're an old timer and have seen it, well just move along I guess.

    For some reason, the whole ERE blog/nasty comment issue kept popping into my head while I read it. The author implies that it's easier for nerds as adults. I guess it is if you're not forced into close proximity, but how many of us aren't through work or social contacts? Plus, Jacob found out through the blog that the Lord of the Flies mentality still applies even when you avoid direct contact with people.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Hoplite

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    I’ve read the Graham article before, and it does make some good points on why nerds or smart kids are unpopular, but I think the article misses or only touches on some important things.

    The one time I was inside a popular group (which in my youth I loosely defined as people who are always posing and laughing with their mouths hanging wide open), what I’ve never forgotten was how much they secretly hated one another; knives always at the ready. Not something you see from the outside.

    But I saw the same thing with nerds and smart kids. One that I counted a friend turned on me viciously just because I had done better on some test that I didn’t even care about. And I haven’t really seen it improve in adult life. A few years ago I was asked to essentially referee a nasty, bitter dispute among some very intelligent scientists. Lord of the Flies at the more genteel peer review level.

    The Prometheus article that Jacob posted explains this sympathetically in terms of damaged people:

    The tragedy is that none of the super high IQ societies created thus far have been able to meet those needs, and the reason for this is simple. None of these groups is willing to acknowledge or come to terms with the fact that much of their membership belong to the psychological walking wounded. This alone is enough to explain the constant schisms that develop, the frequent vendettas, and the mediocre level of their publications. But those are not immutable facts; they can be changed. And the first step in doing so is to see ourselves as we are.

    A less sympathetic view comes from the opening scenes from the movie The Social Network:

    “You’re going to be successful and rich. But you’re going to go through life thinking that girls don’t like you because you’re a tech geek. I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that won’t be true: It’ll be because you’re an asshole.”

    It’s true that very smart people face a different set of problems from the majority (or pluralities) of their chronological peers, and I have often felt myself that I was (mistakenly) beamed down from outer space or woken from suspended animation ala Idiocracy. But I have always seen the basic problem as one of relentless, hostile, invidious competition and envy rather than just intelligence.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. livinlite

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    In many areas of life, the spoils go not to the best or the brightest (as measured by IQ), but to those who are willing to show up consistently and demand better performance from themselves.

    I know I'm stuck in N. Taleb land these days; but I can't help but think about his Fat Tony storyline - commonsense can be more useful than academia-sense when it allows you to open up to a broad world-view that allows for reality, as opposed to the narrow-view of nerd-dom and the world of professional thinkers (on par).

    Which jives with Jonah Lehrer's notes on creativity from "Imagine". The genius comes from looking far and wide and stepping outside the conventions of focussed attention.

    It's a different measure of genius; and maybe its own type of nerd-ity; but a significantly different concept than what I think of when I hear "nerd" - and imagine a cloistered computer-science geek pounding away at c0d3 while slamming MountainDew.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Maus

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    The Graham article stirred up some old memories of mine. In elementary school in City A, I was a diligent student, frequently on the honor role, but not a statistical outlier relative to my classmates. Starting junior high in City B, I soon realized that I was >2Sigma (though I wouldn't have put it that way then) relative to all my new classmates. I was not well-liked and had only one good friend who was a similarly ostracized outlier. And, of course, the tension between wanting popularity and wanting to be smart that Graham writes about was omnipresent. Perhaps the desire to be smart made it impossible to devote any effort to the mystery of "how" one becomes more popular. Graham doesn't really explore it, but I think the root of the tension is the sexual awakening of puberty. I wanted to be liked by the prettiest girls with a new urgency that I didn't fully understand but felt as a relentless physical imperative. They, of course, had no use for a non-atheletic boy of average looks. It was a recipe for frustration that is probably all too familiar to the majority of young adolescents. I can remember making bargains with God to sacrifice 1/3 of my intellectual power for a proportional increase in my atheletic ability (foolishly believing this was the key to popularity). Thankfully, God did not oblige.

    I basically arrived at high school with the knowledge that the sexual frustration was inescapable, but that focusing on my intellect was the path to success as an adult. Strangely, by making almost no effort to conform or court popularity or date, I managed by my senior year to experience at least some social success. My one friend from junior high and I were the co-valedictorians of the class, and I felt then (and still do) that many of our classmates celebrated our accomplishment, and the opportunities it would bring, with genuine admiration untinged by envy.

    At some point every smart person realizes that intelligence is a necessary but not sufficient quality in the economic arena. The intellectual facinations of one's private life don't necessarily have any currency outside the immediate circle of family and friends. Organizations (or clients for freelancers) don't want to hire stupid people, but they also want to like (or "have a good fit") with those they do hire. It seems to me that the only hypersmart people who escape this dilemma are those who's knowledge is in such demand and who's skills are so rare that the demand for that person is inelastic. He or she can set a high price and express whatever personality traits he or she likes. Maybe that's the 1000 folks Aldous Huxley was writing about in @Jacob's other quote.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Chad

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    As a side note, there are smart semi-nerdy popular football players. I was one, as were a few of my teammates. Hell, one is going to be the #1 pick in the NFL draft next weekend. And, chasing that oblong ball is much more fun than Mr. Graham thinks. Football gets such a bad rap.

    Overall, I agree with Graham. His discriptions of high school are spot on except for his main theory that nerds are only nerds because they opt out. While, I agree this is definitely one of the main reasons nerds are nerds. I hardly think it's the prime reason or even just one of a handful of reasons.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Dragline

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    My middle son is pretty nerdy but likes to play football. He plays Center. He is also so absent-minded that sometimes he puts on his brothers' pants by accident.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. aussierogue

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    I went to selective boys high school here in Melbourne that is ranked in Australias whos who in the top 5 schools in Australia. The only thing my school hasnt produced is a prime minister but we have had 4 deputy prime ministers over the last 25 years. All kids need to pass a scholarship to get in so by defintition smart kids..

    But guess what...there were still jocks on one end and spaz's on the other....go figure..ie you could have done the same experiment at lunchtime with the tables of popular vs unpopular..

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. jennypenny

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    Sorry Chad, I didn't think of you when I posted the link. And I agree with you--I only dated a couple of guys before I got married but one was the captain of the football team and he was one of the nicest guys I've ever met.

    The nerds can be mean too. I ended up a freak (as Graham calls them) because I was rejected by the nerds. I was a bit rebellious which set me apart from the other smart kids. While they spent their weekends doing sensible things, I was sneaking into the Stone Pony. The freaks only accepted me in the end because I would help them with their schoolwork. Unlike Graham's school, the freaks and nerds in my school didn't get along.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Chad

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    No need to apologize, as it was a great article. I wasn't angry or offended by any means. I hope I didn't come off that way, but I do try change the football stereotype even if some do fit that steretype.

    No one takes into account that the vast majority of high school football teams are at minimum 2-3 times larger than any other sport (in college it's probably 4-5 times larger). This larger population means it's more likely they will get more of the creatons than other sports. Plus, it's usually the most visible sport, which highlights those creatons even more.

    Ok, done with my little football rant.

    Interestingly enough my class had rather vague cliques. The lack of cliques was prominent enough for the teachers to actually make comments about how the cliques were missing. I'm by no means suggesting there weren't any of the cliques Graham suggests, but based on the stories from other schools our cliques were much less rigid and vicious.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Maus

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    @Chad
    The social experiment that is "high school football" does seem to be a stereotype magnet. And I agree that the size of the team can easily represent a majority of the male student population. Indeed, at my high school a part of my unpopularity (and that of the other co-valedictorian) was our refusal to play despite being about 200 lbs. and in good physical condition. The coach constantly insisted that we had a God-given duty to play tackle or guard for the glory of our alma mater.

    But I realized after freshman year that there is a heirarchy to football. And linemen don't rate as highly as backs and receivers. Additionally, the school ultimately sent guys to the pros. This was a serious development path, and I didn't feel like being the canon fodder than enabled some other guy's destiny.

    I didn't mean to imply that some of the jocks weren't decent human beings. By senior year, I had strong friendships with a few guys who understood that we had different paths toward different goals.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. Chad

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    @Maus
    No need to apologize. I didn't take any of your comments harshly. 90% of my response was really at Graham rather than anyone on here. I think he put a little too much blame on football. If tennis had 50 kids on the team and was the most popular sport, it would pull the same "popularity jackasses", who like to torture "lessor" cliques, as football currently does.

    I completely understand your mindset. The average lineman is lower in the hierarchy than the average skill player. Though, that hierarchy changes the more talented the lineman gets. Good at any position is always rewarded with status.

    You are correct in assumming that a 200 pound lineman would just be "canon fodder that enabled some other guy's destiny." But, football really needs those players to be able to practice (it's almost impossible to practive appropriately in college without 90 or more players). This is part of why you and your friend got the "strong sell" from the coach. If I had been in your position I might have made the same choice. My parents actually thought I wouldn't last two weeks when I started playing in 8th grade.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. JasonR

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    Wow. That is some article. I feel bad for Paul but I think I feel worse for the kids at table F. The table his self-importantness kinda skipped right over on his way to talking about why he's so smart and yet marginalized, but doesn't care, but does. Enough to write an essay as a grown man.

    Obviously his experience is different from mine. However, I think hiding behind a high IQ is a cop out. The smart kids in my school did well enough. Maybe I still don't get what a nerd really is. I was in the "gifted" class with the other higher IQ kids (130+) and when I think about our little nerd platoon I see the most popular girl(s) in school (one was a cheerleader) and a few other socially successful kids. They mostly hung out with some other "regular" smart kids and chatted about AP this and that, college, and future goals. Being dumber and less emotionally mature I hung out at "table A" and we certainly never picked on them, but neither did anyone else that I can remember. We picked on each other while trying to figure out what we were doing Friday night.

    Despite my tragically high IQ (ha) and fathomless knowledge of comic books and 19th century British poetry (ladies, please) I sat at table A because in real life I'm fun to be around and easy to get along with--despite this and other posts. I hung out with the popular kids because they were fun. I hung out with the farm boys and metal heads too because they were fun (tables B and C?). Maybe being fun = popular? IQ didn't have much if anything to do with it. Personality did. Today my friends are most likely average. My wife and her family are a few standard deviations above me and I get along with everybody just fine.

    And yet over there sits sad table D and poor table F. Table F didn't ask to be table F. Table D did. I remember those kids. I sat there a few times and quickly left. When you spend your free time making charts of why you suck and talking about suicide I'm not sticking around. On the off chance table D isn't bemoaning it's persecution by people dumber than them (?) they perseverate on the same topics. One dimensional cardboard cut outs. Always wanting to steer the conversation toward themselves and their topics/ideas. Enjoy your misery table D, I'm out.

    I think Paul has a low social IQ. That's fine, but just admit it in the thesis statement. Could have saved me a heartbreaking read.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Spartan_Warrior

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    The whole question of "Why are nerds unpopular?" to me seems silly, since my definition of nerd has always included unpopularity, that is, a nerd is an unpopular smart person. If they weren't unpopular they wouldn't be nerds. Still, interesting read.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. jacob

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    One framework [in wide usage when it comes to semantics] seems to be

    normal: social skills, no technical skills
    nerd: no social skills, technical skills
    geek: social skills, technical skills
    dork: no social skills, no technical skills

    I think Graham's article is compatible with this seeing that "nerd = no [interest in acquiring] social skills". One of his points is also that while social skills are all that matters in HS (the main reason being that technical skills are largely irrelevant), technical skills become important outside institutionalized frameworks.

    As a corollary, one may derive that institutional systems are set up to remove the important of technical skills ... or at least render them irrelevant. (<=- there's some free career advice right there :) ).

    I think the IQ issue just adds another somewhat correlated dimension to this. In particular when it comes to the Hollingworth gap (the observation that communication breaks down when there's an IQ gap over 30 points because the thinking style becomes qualitatively (not just quantitatively) different).

    From this it follows that if someone is significantly intelligent (more than 30 points above the mean), there's a natural barrier in communication to the majority of (random) people(*). The intelligent person may then just decide, perhaps unconsciously or simply through conditioning through too many failures, that talking to random people is unrewarding. Thus social skills never develop and the intelligent person defaults to nerddom. The way around this is if the intelligent person is lucky enough to be surrounded by intelligent peers or parents or whatever... enough to foster an interest in "other people". Otherwise "random other people" can easily come to be seen as something not worthwhile to spend time on.

    (*) Since everybody goes to HS these days, the HS population is practically randomly sampled.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Ego

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    @jacob said, "From this it follows that if someone is significantly intelligent (more than 30 points above the mean), there's a natural barrier in communication to the majority of (random) people"

    Seems to me if someone is that much smarter than the average person he should be able to figure out how to have a meaningful conversation with them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. riparian

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    IQ isn't a combination of scores and those might be more relevant than the overall IQ. Someone can have a high performance score and low verbal score and even if their overall IQ is 150 they'll experience frustration expressing themselves.

    *verbal doesn't correlate to social.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. jacob

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    @Ego - The gap is not insurmountable. It can be brute forced. However, the bigger the difference in intellect/intelligence, the more effort is required. The point where the required effort has become too large for natural relations to form is a 30 point difference or 2 sdevs. If very bright people somehow find themselves in a situation where they are not surrounded by equally very bright people, they may just decide that the reward/effort of socializing (in Graham's words, being popular) is not worth it and decide to become nerds.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. JasonR

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    @Jacob - interesting breakdown. I always called geeks "cool people" and dorks were called worse things.

    Semantics aside I certainly appreciate the Hollingworth Gap (I'm experiencing it right now...) but why do these "nerds" feel so compelled to make every interaction meaningful? Sometimes it's fine to shoot the breeze. I don't need to discuss fluid dynamics with the UPS guy while I sign for a package. The grocery bagger kid might not be fascinated by the differences between Bernini's David and Michelangelo's David. Maybe he is but it would be weird to try and force that line of thought if it's clear we should be talking about the Phillies. I don't care about the Phillies' pitcher or his knee surgery but so what? I "wasted" 2 minutes learning about something I won't even remember by dinner...but the person I talked to has a favorable impression of our chat. Me too.

    Some people don't have the gift of gab, or don't care enough to try. That's cool. The nerds are smart enough to see the results of their decisions (short and long term) and have to live with their choice. I chose to spend my time stuffing Paul in a locker. Paul chose to get stuffed in a locker. He has a wiki page, I don't.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Ego

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    Evolution favors the cooperative. The second largest creature on earth as measured by biomass is also one of the smallest, the hyper-cooperative ant.

    Cooperation requires communication. Those who cannot communicate are shunned by the group and do not pass on the incommunicable genes.

    Zoom in from the species level to the individual and we see parallels. Pheromones, touch, eye-to-eye contact, physical connection, ect... these all have physiological and psychological benefits beyond their simplest functions.

    Jacob, you were spot on to express the variability of IQs in terms of standard deviation from the mean. Two STDV above average IQ can be equally as devastating as two below. The ultra-low-IQ individual relies on pure instinct and training without applying reason. The ultra-high-IQ individual can use their superior mind to override instinct and training.

    This can be a blessing and a curse. Instinct drives us to work together. It makes us want to communicate in order to promote cooperation. Ultra-high-IQs are masters of rationalization/justification. They do a cost/benefit analysis of each and every conversation and consciously decide to refrain from engaging in all of them. They fail to see the forest through the trees.

    Average is average for a reason. Extremes adapt or are wrung out of existence.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. jennypenny

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    "Two STDV above average IQ can be equally as devastating as two below"

    OK, I started this thread, but I'm not going to go so far as to feel sorry for people with a 130+ IQ. I don't think the "two below" group would agree with you either (if they understood your sentence).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. Ego

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    I know a genius who is socially illiterate. It is equally as sad... perhaps even more sad... than the person who is two-below.

    Ignorance - at least - is bliss.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. jennypenny

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    You're implying that the person two below is automatically socially adept, like there is an inverse correlation between IQ and popularity.

    I actually agree with Jacob on this issue. I hate the way "normal" is defined and the labels that get slapped on everyone (especially children). I do think, however, that *in general* it's easier for the intellectual to learn social and coping skills then it is for the low-IQ individual to overcome their learning issues.

    And sorry to sound argumentative, but it sounds a little elitist to say that it's "more sad" if someone brilliant struggles than someone less intelligent.

    edit: Sorry, I came across a little aggressive, which was not my intention.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Ego

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    Both members of a conversation derive something from it. If not, they wouldn't be having it. The two-below find it somewhat easier to get what they want from a conversation because they rarely suffer the difficulties Jacob outlined above. Rarely bored but often the bore. Elitist? Perhaps.

    I say with no false modesty, from my perspective way up here atop the IQ bell-curve, suffering plus unrealized potential seems sadder than suffering alone.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. jacob

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    I think "coping skills" aptly summarizes the issue that arises when people of different temperaments and intelligence are trust into the random stew that is high school. In particular, nerds decide---this being the positive way of phrasing it, the negative way being that they're simply unable---that maybe developing coping skills is irrelevant if they can later work somewhere where they don't need such skills.

    As for which is sadder ... here's a quote from Plato's Republic:

    "Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eye are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter life, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by
    excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other." --- Plato, The Republic

    To wit, happiness is coming from darkness to light and being able to see and understand a little more. Sadness is coming from a place of insight and dealing with a place of ignorance.

    [This is identical to the difficulty of taking the blue pill once you've taking the red pill when it comes to ERE and the problem of relating to consumerism once you understand it from the outside.]

    I guess it depends on perspective. I realize that the ability to deal with almost any problem is a nice compensation for the interpersonal cost of intelligence. However, in terms of interpersonal relations, would you rather be in a situation whether almost everybody else is smarter than you are or everybody else is duller than you are. Personally, I'd prefer other people to be smarter than I am.

    By the way, the quote above is also found on Flowers For Algernon(Daniel Keyes) which I hardily recommend as it covers many of the problems with relating when the mental disparity becomes too large. For a cruder example: The movie Idiocracy.

    In terms of coping skills, I have probably spent more time on phrasing and rephrasing paragraphs in my posts on this thread than any other thread. Intelligence is a REALLY touchy subject (unlike being good looking or good at sports)! The issue (as the more intelligent party) is very much one of trying to communicate while not coming across as arrogant, preachy, lecturing, conceited, or even irrelevant(*).

    The more intelligent one is, the more of an everpresent concern this becomes. I do not think that this meta-communication has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with some kind of elitism. The problem is that the genius (for lack of a better word---these words change constantly because it's such a touchy subject ... imbecile, moron and idiot used to be technical terms, but now they're insults) is generally very and rightfully sure of a given statement. An average person is not. Since the average person thinks that the other party is also average (and thus not too sure about his statement), someone who appears sure is interpreted as being arrogant. The solution is to fake a lack of sureness: "Yeah, I guess 2+2=4, but who's to say, lol."

    Whether this approach "feels right" very much depends on temperament; whether a person takes his cues externally or internally. [There is a technical term for this orientation, but I forget.] This is a whole other and separate discussion. Let's just say that if someone is internally oriented he would consider adapting his demeanor to "play" his surroundings as immoral manipulation. If he's externally oriented, he'd consider it a natural and beneficial thing to do. Whether one or the other approach is "right" is really something that can get people's blood boiling. I just note that the difference is there.

    (*) Notice for instance how publicly stating an inability to do math actually _creates_ social currency (whereas being bad at sports detracts). Conversely, the ability to do math detracts from social currency. How can one possibly be cool AND understand calculus at the same time?

    Unless much effort is directed at modeling and compensating exactly what for all intents and purposes, say 95% of everybody else, do not know, one constantly has to be alert to the risk of the other person not knowing various references, rephrasing complicated thoughts into more easily grasped metaphors, etc.

    Yeah, "coping skills" captures the problem splendidly. Some cope by hiding their brains/minds. They downplay their thoughts. Others just say nothing or try various head-fakes. Yet others learn to interface well.

    It all depends on whether someone is able AND willing to learn how to cope.

    My point is that the bigger the gap, the greater the effort. And that this effort does not really diminish in scope just because someone is mentally quicker.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. jennypenny

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    I can't believe I'm going to disagree with Plato :P. Maybe not disagree, but I don't think the statement captures the whole truth. I agree that being pulled upward is a much better feeling than being pulled downward. For a person of average intelligence, I think the statement applies. We weren't comparing average and intelligent though, but people significantly below average. I find it hard to see their lives as filled with opportunities to walk towards the light. At that level, they are more likely walking to their job at Walmart. Theirs is a life I would never envy.

    Regarding elitism, well that's harder. It's not elitist to be sure of oneself and one's abilities. Communicating that (with a touch of tact) is never wrong. I don't think it's arrogant or elitist to be correct when you're an intellectual any more than I think it's arrogant or elitist to be first if you're an athlete. I don't subscribe to the current trend of everyone-gets-a-trophy.

    Ranking emotions (like sadness) is tough though. Is it really more sad for the person with lost potential? I would say tragic, not sad. It sounds elitist to me to see your own feelings as more significant.

    I also think being an introverted genius is a much different experience than being an extroverted genius. A genius who is also introverted might become so inwardly-focused that they become socially inept or lose touch with reality completely(Howard Hughes?). The extroverted genius will have constant personal interaction to keep them grounded and outwardly-focused (Bill Clinton comes to mind).

    side note on coping skills: There are now group therapy sessions for smart kids who struggle with social skills. Sometimes they have structured lessons. One was on how to answer questions and participate in discussions about TV (assuming these kids didn't watch TV). It was suggested that the kids pick at least one show to watch weekly so they'd have something to say. They also meet to go bowling or do other activities where they learn to interact with strangers. I was very dubious of the whole thing when we started--one of the stated goals is to teach them how to appear normal--but it's made a world of difference for my son. He's developed a repertoire of answers to most social questions and he's learned (in his words) to "turn my brain off when I'm trying to have fun."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. Dragline

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    Well, Plato is nothing if not elitist. Much of the premise of The Republic is designing the perfect city-state to be ruled by the perfectly selected elites (philosophers, of course).

    I sometimes ponder why so many philosophers spend so much time designing perfect societies. Everyone wants to be Plato I guess. Yet most of them seem to require some kind of tyrannical force to implement, which kind of defeats the purpose in most cases.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Maus

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    It is difficult to generalize the emotional states of classes of people (IQ cohorts) from the experiences of particular individuals. On the one hand, we are probably hardwired to have some affective response to external stimuli. So we act on the assumption that others react similarly under similar circumstances. But this hardwiring is so subject to an individual's intellectual re-framing that it ends up like the nature versus nurture debate for a host of other human traits. I would be very leery of thinking that what makes me sad or frustrated makes someone 4 or 3 or 2 standard deviations below me in intelligence react similarly.

    Having said that, I am reminded of Henri Nouwen, a priest who was instramental in the early history of L'Arch, an organization devoted to creating homes where volunteers lived with profoundly disable people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Arche

    Nouwen observed that almost without exception, those with severe mental disabilities -- provided that their material needs were met -- exhibited a very happy, trusting, joyful and optimistic attitude. He opined that the volunteers, perhaps initially motivated by pity or altruism, frequently remained committed to L'Arche because of the simple joy reflected by their disabled housemates.

    So, in some ways, without meaning to be trite, ignorance is bliss.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. sshawnn

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  29. diracwinsagain

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    Let me preface by saying that this is easily the most offensive thing that I've ever put on the internet, so my apologies in advance. Second, the delay on getting registered is fairly significant. If you consider yourself easily offended--Actually if you consider yourself able to be offended in any way at all ever-- please skip the following.

    I'll start off by explaining a little bit about who I am before I start ranting. I was/am a nerd. In high school that would have definitely described me at table D (or E?). I'm a smart fellow, for the purposes of this discussion I'm fairly certain that my IQ falls in the 130-150 range. I'm very nearly certain that its 99th percentile. I really have enjoyed ERE. I don't like this sort of holier-than-though attitude that seems to be pervasive.

    Nerds aren't social outcasts because we're smart. Nerds are social outcasts because they lack social skills. The importance of nature here seems to me to be extraordinarily exaggerated. Just as people don't bench press their body weight because they were born naturally strong, the apparent lack of effort (in most cases) probably comes from a very significant amount of time spent focusing on it. This probably supports Graham's conclusion. That being said I'm not happy with the very common dismissal of social skills as somehow being less important. As Graham further points out in his article, among the sciences lack of social skills is somehow seen as a badge of honor. This is not too dissimilar to lack of math skills being adding to social currency. The problem is it seems to me that the former is very present among natural scientists and the latter is largely made up by nerds in high school. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of kids in high school would be ashamed of doing poorly on a math test. Some goofballs would no doubt try to make light of their own feelings, the concept that this adds to social currency in the typical high school is probably largely fabricated (from that small subset of goofballs) by nerds as an excuse for why we don't fit in (and also to use it as an excuse to feel smugly superior). "I'm just too good at math to be well liked" Queue eye-roll.
    Sometimes we take ourselves into absurd twists to explain why nobody likes us without actually having to take responsibility for the fact that there are skills we don't have that need to be developed. I think the Hollingworth gap is probably a good example. A quick Google search reveals no reference of the gap (except as referenced here). A brief review of Hollingworth's studies does turn up that she thought that people with very high IQ's would have trouble leading. Additionally though I dug up this little gem: "Myths that exceptional children were ... eccentric were dismissed by the findings as well." (From the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leta_Stetter_Hollingworth). IQ being such a unreliable tool (Anecdote: IQ tests I've taken within a couple years of each other have varied by 20 points, though maybe the standard deviation they were scaled to was just different), and given that the experimentation had a very small sample size (12), and partially consisted of showing that the educational system in 1926 was poor for gifted children, I think that such a finding is unreliable at best and hardly due the weight it gets credited here. More likely any trouble talking to people comes from poor/underdeveloped social skills.
    The amount of elitism here about the so called "normal" people is shameful. The Plato quote put into this context (given, maybe that was the original context) takes the cake for me. This is also part of the reason why I think that many respondents to the essay claimed that arrogance was a reason for why nerds were social outcasts. Maybe the football players were arrogant, but they were arrogant because they were good at a sport. The vast majority of people are comfortable with being worse than someone else at football. Our society values intellegence above almost everything else (I think a product of the enlightenment). You may doubt it but it is so steeped in the pop-culture. How many movies can you think of with misunderstood genius protagonists? Intelligence is a universally praised quality. Interestingly almost everyone considers their own intelligence to be above average. This is why people think nerds are arrogant because I can't think of another group that says "normal" the same way most people say "idiot". Also BIG F***ING RED FLAG if your first thought here was: "Well compared to me they are idiots." (Hint: this is why people don't like you.)
    I don't know why this elitism seems to be so concentrated in the natural sciences. My guess is that, to paraphrase Robert Jordan (BS in Physics, who'da thunk): You cannot tell a man he's unlocking the secrets of the universe, then expect him to walk small. Too many scientists (I count myself in this category) have decided that they're work is so important that they don't need to bother being able to explain their ideas properly, let alone have a regular conversation with, god forbid, a "normal" person. This attitude that social skills are somehow beneath us is, I think, one of the most damaging to the sciences.

    @EGO: First, apt name. Second, suggesting that evolution weeds out high IQ smart people because they're too rational is a complete conjecture and if it were true probably would have stifled its development in the first place. Furthermore complaining that being too smart is "suffering" and is worse than being mentally retarded in some fashion displays a shocking level lack of empathy. I think this <link>comic</link> more aptly describes what I feel my response ought to be. As a twist of the last line I think the appropriate delivery here is: "New theory stupid people are popular with each other, because the alternative is listening to you"

    @JACOB: See the linked comic. As a further note on ERE. Comparing it to the red-pill blue-pill thing is exactly the sort of attitude I'm talking about. ERE is a great idea, and it works for me. Its holistic and that's great. But, acting like people are in Plato's cave or the matrix because they like some of the nice things that you or I don't is just f**king rude. It has nothing to do with being to smart and everything to do with considering other peoples interests as being beneath you or unworthy.

    tl;dr: Dirac is tired of smart people throwing pity parties over their lack of social skills.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. Ego

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 784

    Evolution weeds out ultra-high-IQs because they can be unable to communicate with anyone else and are shunned from the group. This shunning makes them suffer. That suffering, in my opinion, is similar to the suffering of an ultra-low-IQ person. But the high-IQ have an additional cause of suffering. Awareness allows them to anticipate suffering which can be a form of suffering itself.

    For the record... my IQ is average and I don't consider myself a nerd.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. Spartan_Warrior

    Master
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 512

    @Dirac:

    Your linked comic isn't working. Also,

    I'm not usually one to post net memes, but this seems appropriate. Welcome to the forum btw.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. sshawnn

    Journeyman
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 279

    >>But, acting like people are in Plato's cave or the matrix because they like some of the nice things that you or I don't is just f**king rude. It has nothing to do with being to smart and everything to do with considering other peoples interests as being beneath you or unworthy.

    If you try and use a blanket statement such as above the to try and describe a typical ERE view of the cave dwellers....I think your missing a big part of the point. Consumerism is just one piece of the pie that makes up the pill choice.

    It sounds like you have been reading/following the forums for a while. It is interesting that your first post is such a furious, well worded argument.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. jennypenny

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 1,391

    @Dirac
    “I can't think of another group that says "normal" the same way most people say ‘idiot’”

    Ok, that was really funny. I can’t speak for everyone, but I know when I use “normal” that way I’m not referring to someone’s intelligence. My derogatory use of the word normal is for the members of my larger social circle for whom looking youthful, appearing wealthy, and acting more pious than the next person is paramount. They are the majority where I live so that behavior is considered normal. I guess I do consider them less intelligent if they value those things above all others or just follow the crowd instead of thinking for themselves.

    And there is definitely a bias on the board toward the presumption that extroverted is the norm, and therefore extroverts tend to define the social parameters that we (introverts) have to learn to navigate. Introverts can be resentful of the social skills they must learn because the skills needed are defined by extroverts. When someone tells me “it’s not normal to spend so much time alone” or “it’s not normal not to want those [consumer] things” the next words out of my mouth are usually not kind and do not improve my social standing. I think that was the appeal of the ERE city for me—that I would live somewhere that my behavior was considered normal for a change.

    Your post ranks up there with Dragline’s for best first post. Welcome.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. jacob

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,371

    @Dirac - Interestingly, even though I don't agree with you, I didn't think what you wrote was offensive at all. Maybe I'm lacking in so-called "social adjustment skills"... I would say that Plato's cave has to do with something else entirely than an affinity for nice things or that those who like nice things are somehow blinded and those who don't are enlightened. I like nice things too. But I also know why I like them. That's the difference. It has to do with thinking-about-thinking or questioning why things are the way they are AND through that process seeing them for what they really are thus making a deliberate choice.

    Many people don't do that. They take the default choice. That's not me being arrogant or elitist. That's simply a fact.

    Indeed, "Hollingworth gap" seems to be coined by me (or at least I have the highest google page-rank because I think I got the term from somewhere else). The keyword you're really looking for is "communications barrier" and how it affects the "gifted". It's unfortunately not something that has received a lot of attention---likely because few people have cared about this problem.

    (If something only affects 1% of the population and they seem to do okay, why bother to study it? When I grew up the prevailing pedagogical idea was that gifted kids should use their ability to act as teaching assistants for "slower students" as a way to remain challenged.)

    Two observations:

    The more difficult it gets to establish hard facts, the more politics matters. For instance, it is hard to establish facts about the economy and its working which is why this problem is argued politically. Conversed, nobody has a political position on the law of gravity. What goes on inside other people's heads (theory of mind) is perhaps the hardest thing of all to get objective facts about. It's therefore highly political.

    Also, the smaller the part something plays in one's life the easier it is to ignore AND/OR accept differences. For most people football is just a game. Yeah, sure I might not be good at football (I doubt I can catch a ball) but I don't care about my skill because it's hardly relevant to my life. If you're really good at football, I don't feel envy; I don't feel threatened, I don't question my self-worth. However, if football was the way everything was done it becomes materially important. Imagine
    if wedding ceremonies involved tossing footballs, kicking field goals and making plays. That buying groceries involved a kick and a punt. That watching TV required a quarterback sack. That all work involved doing various plays. That hanging out with friends meant a football game. That even talking or all forms of communication with other people somehow involved a football THEN your skill in football would become really important.

    Now how and what one thinks about is a large part of life. It can not be easily dismissed.

    So combine something which is very important with something that's hard to establish hard facts about and we have a major problem.

    I think what we're seeing is just an unfortunate dynamic that occur whenever there are two groups and 1) The first group is significantly larger than the second group.
    2) The second group is sui generis to ('can not be described by the language of', 'can not be comprehended by') the first group. And maybe vice versa, see (3).
    3) Sometimes the first group can be described by the language of the second group. (There's an asymmetry!)

    In such a situation, the second group will feel alienated from the first group. Conversely, the first group doesn't care because of its size and status as the majority. The first group may even be oblivious to the existence of the second group. Lots of finger pointing also results.

    In particular, the first group will refer to itself as normal and phrase all values in terms of its own values. The second group will be seen as "unadjusted" or lacking important adjustment skills or even as psychological disorders to be cured. Majority behavior will be associated with positive adjectives and vice versa. This is run of the course in many areas: extroversion & introversion, gifted & normal, ERE & consumerism.

    For example is the word "fun" more likely to be associated with
    "outgoing" or "contemplative"; how about "fun and quiet" or "fun and exciting"? Fun means "enjoying", but it's associated with what the majority values to the point of being part of the grammar. If you say "outgoing" you almost gotta say "fun" in the same sentence.

    If the second group begins to define its own values (rather than accept its difference as some disorder), the first group will see the second group as arrogant: "How dare they think different thoughts?!" Also, if the second group somehow finds a way to be independent of the first group (especially if the first group holds dependence as a positive value---this holds for all of the above: extroverted need other people, normal people need smart people (I have a collection of statements telling me it's irresponsible to waste my brain on being retired), consumers need workers for the economy), that's a problem too. Like if the nerds find out they don't need to be popular to be successful.

    It is always expected [by the majority] that the minority group is the one who must spend the time and effort to accommodate the majority group. Why is that?

    A person belonging in the minority can either 1) Spend time to conform. 2) Keep hidden. 3) Take social damage in the hope of finding other minority members to connect with.

    If (3) holds, the outlash becomes worse. In that case, the smaller group essentially states that "not only do I understand your values, I also implicitly reject them in favor of mine" which goes beyond (2) "I don't understand your values, but I like mine". This is tremendously objectionable to the first group. It is particularly objectionable to any group where "fitting into the majority group" is a core value.

    I think (3) holds for ERE vs consumerism (many of us, including me, are reformed consumers and perhaps engage ERE with religious fervor). I don't think it easily holds for extroversion vs introversion (I can not fathom what it's like to be extroverted ... is it like being high on vodka and red bull all the time?) ... I also can not fathom what it's like being like the average or anyone else for that matter in terms of intellect. I can just observe that I communicate easily with people who are on the same page and hardly at all with people who are several pages over and that it seems to be correlated with IQ and personality temperament.)

    As a result, belonging to the minority group (or several of them as it may be) can be pretty damn annoying and frustrating. There's a great attraction in finding one's fellow minority group members and occasionally venting. This is essentially what you're seeing here...

    It's quite clear that both groups somehow offends each other either intentionally or unintentionally (for example, while you considered your own post offensive, I didn't) through lack of comprehension or shared concepts/language. However, I don't think one group is holier than thou at all or that this forum is a particularly offensive group. We may use "normal" in the same way other people say "idiot", but on the other hand we wouldn't use "shy" the way other people say "introvert" or "nerd" the way other people say "lacking in social skills" or "ERE" the way other people say "sacrifice". It's really hard to tell if anyone means anything offensive or mean about it or it's simply a question of a lack of mutual understanding.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. swathorne

    Novice
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 9

    Thanks for articulating a counter argument Jacob. Good read and I agree on all points. I remember when I first started reading the ERE forums my first reaction was to wish that I had a group of co-workers or friends who could have these types of discussions because it would be a lot easier to cope. The forum is definitely a venting mecahnism to some degree. I don't believe myself to be "gifted" and have no idea what my IQ is....but I find that people here are very often able to articulate experiences/thoughts in ways that resonate with my core.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. anomie

    Journeyman
    Joined: Apr '12
    Posts: 220

    Hi new here, hate to interrupt the great conversation, but from the essay originally mentioned:

    "Why do people move to suburbia? To have kids! So no wonder it seemed boring and sterile. The whole place was a giant nursery, an artificial town created explicitly for the purpose of breeding children."

    Just thought that was very funny!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. Dragline

    Master
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 990

    I assure you -- there is nothing sterile about children, wherever you might breed them. Especially if they are boys. ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. Chad

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,057

    As I have already stated Graham gets a lot right, but also a lot wrong. This article about Asian Americans hits on a lot of what Graham doesn't want to admit.

    http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. Ego

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 784

    Excellent article Chad.

    Students measure success with 'A's. Once school is over people usually measure it with accomplishments. Often the most accomplished are not those who actually do things themselves but those who are able to coerce, encourage, prod and work with others to do them. It takes an entirely different skill set than the one required for a perfect report card.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. Chad

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,057

    Thanks, Ego. I thought it was one of the better ones I have read recently. It all kind of ties to a study I read a long time ago comparing the success of students with 4.0's to ones with 3.8's. The 3.8's had more success. The theory being that the massive extra work for those last .2 GPA points wasn't worth losing out on social skills that could be learned in that time.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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