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Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Friends & Family Questions

1. 

   GandK
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Sep '11
   Posts: 271

   I'm really struggling with this right now. Most of our friends and family members think we are WAY too extreme, and like most Feelers, I feel a tremendous amount of pressure to "fit in," in this case by maintaining a similar standard of living to the people I love and admire. I know this will sound silly to some of you Thinkers, but spending money in order to fall in line with the people around me is one of the ways I express approval of, and affection for, those people and their choices and their lives.

   It isn't even a conscious thing usually, which is why the urge to do it is so easily exploited by loved ones and marketing execs: you're identifying with a group when you spend like them, and doing so increases your odds (and your children's odds if you're a parent) of acceptance, and - if you're really emotionally disturbed - of obtaining things like love and intimacy. It also diminishes the odds of ridicule, judgment and exclusion, all of which are an anathema to Feelers.

   This is so true for some of us (me) that being extremely frugal in the face of a peer group that isn't sometimes feels morally wrong. It feels like I'm judging those around me and condemning myself to similar judgment at the same time. I don't particularly enjoy spending money and when I'm left the hell alone to think about it, I'm pleased with our family's frugality. But I dislike - almost violently - feeling left out, or feeling looked down upon by people whose respect I crave. It takes gut-level restraint for me NOT to go out to a restaurant with my coworkers when I'd prefer their company to eating alone, even if they're going someplace I DETEST for lunch and the leftovers I brought are delicious. And while I don't give a flying **** whether people I don't know talk about me behind my back for my financial choices, the thought of my parents doing so (and they do) is physically painful.

   Does anyone else here struggle with these feelings? And, if so, how do you cope?

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. 

   sky
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jan '11
   Posts: 196

   I do some eccentric things. Once you get the reputation of oddball, you can get away with doing things differently. Also, you can play the role of immigrant if that fits you, everyone knows immigrants are strange and do not have to conform.

   Sometimes when you are being coerced into playing a certain role which you would rather not play, you can act out another role that is more acceptable to you. The real solution is to be in command of your behavior without having to play a role but not many people are strong enough to do this.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. 

   george
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Mar '11
   Posts: 212

   I'm similar to Sky, because my family has always been different I'm used to being talked about for it, so I don't really know what it's like to fit in. When I was young I saw other children trying to be "it" and I never understood it.

   I don't believe there is such a thing as "normal". And what a boring world it would be if we were.

   You don't need to be normal to be respected

   If people want to talk about me behind my back, or worry about me so be it, they're that way inclined. I think that's their problem, and they'll get over it. Tomorrow they'll have something else to talk or worry about. They live their lives, you live yours.

   Somebody once told me, don't worry about what others think about you, you'd be surprised how little they really do think about you. (or words to the effect)

   One of my goals is to have character, I think it comes from people who are real, eccentric and who accept what they are.

   I find when people comment about my frugality, it helps to make a joke out of it, it encourages other people to joke about it, and laugh about themselves.

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. 

   ExpatERE
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jul '11
   Posts: 219

   This is tricky. I'm wired the complete opposite. I take not caring what people think to an extreme. It is this way with friends, family, colleagues, everyone. Now don't get me wrong, I don't intentionally hurt people, but my lack of concern for what others think in regards to how I live my life comes across abrasive at times. Regardless of how you are wired, we all have a finite amount of time to enjoy living. It would be a waste to live it on anyones terms, but our own.

   If you need to spend a little more to feel accepted, do it. However, I would ask yourself what is most valuable to you and your family? You obviously live frugally for a reason. Is that reason a stronger/lesser value to fitting in? As with all values you eventually run into a conflict. What do you value most and why? No one can tell you to continue being frugal if it comes at the cost of your happiness. On the other hand, no one can tell you or make you feel that you should be less frugal to be accepted and if they do then it is only b/c you have given your consent for them to do so.

   Ask yourself what is most important to you and your family and stuggle not so much with a quick answer, but the question itself.

   Best wishes.

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. 

   ffj
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 344

   What you are describing fits the fire service to a scary degree. Like a family you are in a fishbowl and nothing escapes observation. Most firefighters spend more time with other firefighters than their own family. Opinions of your character and personality are extremely important and everyone strives to fit in to be a part of the group.

   This was very hard for me in the beginning as I have always been very independent in thought and action and when that is turned 180 degrees there is a lot of adjustment to be made. And like you, I couldn't discount others opinions of me because what other important people in your life think of you IS important. Some people are really good at not caring about this, but I think it comes at a cost that I wasn't fully aware of until I joined the fire service. My point is not to discount your feelings and not view it as a sign of weakness.

   With that said, I think it comes down to compromise and finding ways to be creative to still be part of the group without losing your life savings. And I think the point of ERE gets lost sometimes when people start to debate whether to use soap or something to the like. To a normal person that is just crazy talk, and you are immediately voted off of the island in their minds. So part of the process of fitting in is learning to temper your conversations to the group. I mean, don't show this website to your family, and lie if you have to about your motives. They want to be comfortable in the knowledge that you are normal and are living the American Dream. And finally, I think it's o.k. to splurge around family and friends, because most of us save so much money elsewhere we have some breathing room to blow some money where it counts. Good Luck.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. 

   BeyondtheWrap
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 267

   I agree with sky on being eccentric. It's a place to be if you can justify anything you do with, "It's ok, I'm just weird." Getting to that place might be tricky though.

   I personally do like going out to eat, even though it costs more. So the way I handle that is to just budget a certain amount of money for fun, entertainment, etc. so that it doesn't get out of hand. You can go out with them at least some of the time and not have it destroy your hopes of ERE.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. 

   Ego
   

   Master
   Joined: Nov '11
   Posts: 754

   Conflicting desires are tricky. Each and every one of us is swayed in different ways and in different directions by what others think. Some of us wish to fit in and be accepted. Others want the opposite and relish their status as the outsider. One way or another, all of us care - to some extent.

   Having a clear hierarchy of goals is key to minimizing the trouble caused by your conflicting desires. You want to please your parents and you want to be frugal. When push comes to shove, which is more important?

   Being conscious of the relative importance of certain choices helps you to make them without feeling overwhelming internal backlash. That doesn't mean it won't bother you when your parents speak critically of your decisions. You will. It just means you will accept their criticism as the cost of being your own person and living by your rules, not theirs.

   So, the next time you are faced with a conflicting choice - I want to go out with my friend but I also want the future benefits of my frugality - decide which WANT is greater.

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. 

   aussierogue
   

   Master
   Joined: Nov '11
   Posts: 345

   I gotta say the level of self awareness in this thread especially by Gandk and FFJ is amazing.

   As a wierd INTJ my intial reaction is to say grow some balls why do you care what these people think anyway? Surely real friends or people that really respect you will see past these superficial things and like you for who you are..

   But having lived my life like this I have started to change my ideas. I am actually a little sick of being percieved as being wierd. Its tiring and maybe a better way (more mature and less heartbreaking) is to compromise more than i am used to. Being lonely and ostracised is not good for mental health. I do have some great relationships but the issue is as someone who is considered wierd, these relationships can be volatile, especially if a feel i am not being understood...then i drop out for a while and recharge..

   So the question is how much to compromise?

   I think you can be frugal but also be smart on when to splurge a little.

   Always be generous with presents and gifts and do go for dinner when you can. But behind close doors be frugal.

   Its an interesting topic and as i said brilliantly broached.

   cheers
   aussie

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. 

   Surio
   

   Sorcerer
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 601

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_%28racial_identity%29

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. 

    dragoncar
    

    Expert
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 1,289

    If you absolutely must care what people close to you think (and I doubt this is something you can change easily, if at all), then maybe you should get close to people who share your goals and ideals.

    I've got a (feeler) friend who is always complaining that her coworkers go out to expensive restaurants for birthdays, etc. I tell her not to go, or not to order anything. I don't think it'll ever happen... the social pressure is just too great (and there's additional aspect of trying to fit in at work, where fitting in can mean the difference between a promotion and none)

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. 

    Chris L
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 150

    Even non-feelers think about how people perceive them. We go out for drinks after weekly hockey and people drink beer. I don't like beer or to drink after playing a physical sport so I don't. I'm also gluten free so there isn't much I can order. We go in a large group so there's pressure to consume. I would avoid this for a while and order water. Sometimes I order nachos. But when I don't there's always a comment made and I'm expected to tip for my water? Makes me wonder just a bit, because people do know I'm frugal, but would prefer to label me as cheap. It can't really be avoided.

    Trying to rationalize my 1) gluten intolerance 2) lack of cheese experiment to figure out if I'm intolerant and 3) lack of desire to dehydrate myself further, is just a huge amount of talk wasted on people who'll roll their eyes.

    It's hard to convince other people of anything that requires more than just a simple sentence, bullet point or rule of thumb. To keep things straight in their head, I'm labelled "cheap." Whatever I guess. It's sad, but that's just part of life I guess.

    I haven't managed to find anyone else nearby who shares my values, but I do enjoy team sports such as hockey and baseball so I park my comments to be part of the team.

    I'm learning to button up more on facebook and in person regarding debates. While I like learning, sharing ideas and debating, other people feel threatened and alienated. People don't like different and when you express a different idea, they feel like you're talking smack about THEM. Keep that in mind.

    I've often wondered if INTJs should use their mind power to manipulate people. All people manipulate, most do it subconsciously, so why can't INJTs do it consciously? It's not our natural state...but might as well work on it a bit more. Then we can have the best of both worlds :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 926

    Sometimes I do it consciously.

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. 

    Don Emanuel
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 90

    I stopped caring long time ago. Also trying to avoid group gatherings where there is stress to put people in "categories" of "value".

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. 

    dragoncar
    

    Expert
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 1,289

    "I only drink the finest [obscure beer that they definitely won't have]" that way you're not cheap, you're a beer snob!

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. 

    Chad
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,006

    This is a really good question for this group considering most will fall on the "to he'll with them" side...including me. I used to care more when I first started working, but over the years I become selective on my "required" work socialization. I go like every 3rd time & then make up a white lie or, as Chris L suggests, I consciously manipulate others. This gets me the required social points and makes me seem like I would go more often if I could. The one problem with this is it takes a lot of energy for an INTJ to be manipulative.

    @aussierogue
    I have gone the opposite and embraced the weird or eccentric in my private life (moderately at work). Though, I must admit I'm not quite as frugal as many on here, so my eccentricities are sometimes a bonus socially as it makes me interesting, but not too threatening as I'm not really extreme.

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. 

    aussierogue
    

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 345

    @chad

    Dare i say it at 41 having embraced moderately weird and eccentrc their aint no turning back for me either...

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. 

    Catanduva
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 48

    I don't care, but my mother wanna send me to a shrink.

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. 

    S
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 288

    Find a socially acceptable reason to be different and it might be easier. For instance, go on a fitness kick. You instantly have a reason to ride your bike to work and avoid going to restaurants. If you do join them for social outings, you have an excuse for bringing your own "healthy food" from home. Bonus points if you actually do improve your fitness.

    I've been classified weird my whole life. I got over being concerned about it sometime in high school. You really do get a lot of slack when you're just accepted as different and thus not worth pressuring into doing normal things. This is probably not helpful advice for someone seeking to fit in though.

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. 

    akratic
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 480

    GandK it's my opinion that ERE is an INTx idea, written by an INTj for INTxs. Take away any of those first three letters, and it's going to be a challenge. (J is useful too, but not nearly as important as I, N, and T.) Other personality types can pursue ERE if they want, but it's going to be hard for them.

    One thing a lot of ERE pursuers seem to forget or ignore is that jacob made no sacrifices in his pursuit of ERE. He wasn't giving up things he wanted now for some goal in the future. He just didn't want those things.

    As an INTj I *like* being contrarian, weird, indepedent, and different. I didn't choose to be that way to accomplish some goals like ERE. I chose goals like ERE because they fit well with the way I naturally am.

    I don't think you should seek to change this aspect of yourself. I think you should embrace it!

    My girlfriend is as frugal as many of the people on this forum, but she has goals that are more important to her than autonomy and freedom. She chose a career as a teacher where she makes almost no money, but she has an immense, direct, positive impact on the people around her. She swells with joy when the students tell her how much her effort means to them. And she doesn't bat an eye at the $6/hr paycheck. This job makes ERE impossible for her; but as a Feeler, it's where she belongs.

    In summary, I think you should take the parts of ERE that work best for you, and discard the rest. Don't force an NT plan on an NF personality. I do hope you stick around though, GandK, your posts are some of my favorite on the forum.

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. 

    george
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 212

    This is a topic I'm quite passionate about.

    It concerns me that we are becoming less acceptive of unusual behaviour. As a child of someone who often exhibited behaviour which one wouldn't expect, but was never threatening, I always found others reactions the most interesting, Do they call the police, say hello etc. Quite different reactions.

    If we are unable to live a life based on frugaility because of the need to fit in, what hope is there for those in our community who are different but harmless.

    By sharing who we truly are, it encourages those around us to accept abnormaility and to be understanding.

    In every classroom there is at least one child who exhibits abnormal behaviour, I would like to see us bring up our children to be understanding, rather than name calling etc. It can be done, but we adults need to demonstrate understanding by at least exhibiting our own abnormal but harmless behaviour.

    Now I'll get of my soap box

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. 

    tjt
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 127

    People at work thought I was weird because I don't own a car and I bike to work even when it's -10 degrees. So I bring up the environmental and health benefits, and they agree. They think I'm a hardcore fitness-addict and tree-hugger, not a guy that's retiring in 16 months.

    I think you'll find that frugality, health, and the environment share a lot of common elements. If you do things manually, it's usually good for your health as well as wallet. If you buy less stuff, it's usually good for the environment as well as your wallet.

    If you don't care about your health or the environment, you can fake it. I'm lucky, I guess, because I do care.

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. 

    Freedom_2018
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 175

    Was going to say something..but Akratic put it well.

    Everyone need not be ERE...it is not a competition...maybe ER works well for you with some planning and budgeting.

    I daresay that most on here are thinking ERE for 2 primary reasons...either really want to get on quickly to something/way of life that really attracts them instead of their 9-5...or..get away from something that has been a soul suck...often combo of the two.

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. 

    jzt83
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 148

    You can just go to a restaurant and order the cheapest thing on the menu while indulging once in a while. Or you could just not even order anything. If your friends or colleagues make a stink about it, then it's likely they're shallow people who you'd not want to associate with anyhow.

    You can't not stop caring what others think. We all care what other's think to varying degrees. No one is completely unself-conscious. Also, having a social life that's limited and that lacks closeness is bad for one's mental and physical health. Just keep in mind that mental and physical health are the most important assets a person can have and those assets can not be optimally obtained by being a social recluse. You have to make certain sacrifices. Also be discerning about whom you associate with. The handful that are close to you should share much of your values and accept you for who you are. I'm sure you can find a handful of people who accept you in spite of being an outlier. It is also possible that you are overly self-conscious and people don't care about your being different as much as you think.

    Maybe move to a weird city like Portland,Or or Austin, Tx? Or move to one of the many bohemian hoods around the US?

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. 

    aussierogue
    

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 345

    I think this discussion is a part of a bigger issue for many ERE people. And that is one of "status anxiety". There is a famous book from Alain de Botton by the same title.

    The issue is subconsciously all of us desire status. Some of us are aware of this but most of us use excuses for the reasons we buy large cars, houses, get degrees etc et.

    ITS NORMAL and without status people feel weak, not heard and ostracised.

    So how does a frugal ere GET STATUS without compromising the greater ideal...

    Jacob by way of this blog has achieved some status. He is the guru and has a famous blog. Peaple listen to him and don;t think he is a overtly weird because he has 'followers'.

    Similarly i have been able to achieve some acceptance because for 20 years i had some trappings of status. High paying and titled job, live in nice house, regular holidays, A1 schooling etc So somehow society will be more lenient to someone in my position although trust me it is still hard. Most still think 'there must be something wrong" that i have chosen to "drop out".

    So i cant imagine some of the social pressures of starting from scratch. trying to be ere when many in society have had a chance to pigeon hole you (and you yourself subconsciously) as having beed successful and hence achieved status.

    That is why i think successful ere's need to talk about it.

    Needs to be normailised and admired

    Preaching people.....heleulya!

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. 

    ffj
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 344

    Just out of curiosity, as the G and the K are a team, who does most of the posting or is it a team effort? Sometimes the posts have a feminine vibe and others are more masculine. If this is too nosy feel free to ignore.

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. 

    C40
    

    Master
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 578

    Just want to drop in and say I found this thread very interesting. I don't have much to add other than sort of an INTJ joke:

    When you're trying to fit in with everyone else, the best you can possibly achieve is mediocrity.

    As someone who has very little concern for what other people think of me**, my advice might not be good, but here's some anyways...

    (**at least about to the way I spend money, socialize, etc... Not only do I not care what people think of me, I spend near zero time ever even thinking about what others might think of me),

    One thing I would suggest is to have a conversation with one or two of your close friends about this subject. Ask them how they feel if you say that you would like to go to dinner but don't want to spend the money, or how they would feel if you went along but didn't spend money. You might find out that they don't care at all. They might be relieved by the question, having felt the same exact thing as you at times. Or they might say it would make you seem a little bit different (more interesting). I'd think that from your standpoint, the worst they could do is confirm the way you already feel.

    I understand that your struggle is because that is the way YOU feel, and maybe not necessarily that you worry so much about how they really do feel about it (?), but just asking a couple questions of your closest friends might change the way you feel a bit

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. 

    vireoes
    

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 16

    One thing that has worked for me is to take on more of a leadership role in social settings. By taking on more leadership I move the group onto less expensive activities that are of more interest to me. I don't sell them on their cheapness, but on something else that is more socially acceptable. It does require a bit more energy on my part, but it lets me have a social life on my terms and people focus less on how I am different. I invite people over to my place more and make a big pot of something tasty but cheap. The occasional time when socially I am required to go out, my friends often feel duty bound to pick up the tab since I went to the trouble of cooking them a nice meal and they don't have the time/energy to return the favor. I do things like organize fitness related outings, hikes, flower/bird watching, library meetup, board game nights, or other meetups at low cost venues. While it goes a bit against the I (INTJ) part of my nature, I find it less socially awkward than fitting into other people idea of a good time. I think I am doing better at the social thing now than I used to since it is on my terms. Before I would be much more inclined to just stay at home and be more socially isolated.

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. 

    GandK
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 271

    @firefighterjeff: LOL! Not too nosy. I (K, the wife) made the ID "gandk" hoping that my husband (G) would use it to post occasionally too, as we talk about ER, FIRE and ERE all the time. He has yet to post. He is very ERE-oriented -- is actually the "nerd" of the two of us, as Dave Ramsey would say -- but he's an ESTJ, so the issue is that online forums don't really interest him... he wants to interact with people in person, not online. So far all the posts are mine. If he ever gets around to posting instead of just standing over my shoulder offering commentary as I type, I will have him identify himself so there's no confusion.

    @aussierogue: You're right about status anxiety! And it's worse because the underlying topic is money, and SO many people think discussing money is rude. I grew up in Appalachia, the poorest place in the United States, and one of the first lessons I learned was that I should NEVER, under any circumstances, talk about money. My parents were upper-middle class and we lived significantly below our means in order to fit in with the majority of our community. I was taught that talking about money could lead to being ostracized, robbed or worse. (ERE as a survival technique.)

    Fast forward to today, and G and I live in a city in the American midwest. I'm 38 and looking forward to RE. I have excitement about our path toward financial independence, and questions about the best possible methods of getting there, and the normal desire to share my life with people who matter to me. Yet there isn't a single person besides my spouse with whom I can sit down and discuss FIRE topics without the fear of giving offense and I am PETRIFIED of being shunned. Layered on top of the common-sense realization that others may see us as extreme is all my childhood anxiety about money and how others may potentially perceive my financial situation and the effect it may have.

    So I find myself spending money in order to fall in line when what I'd rather do (read: what I fantasize about doing instead) is saying to my coworkers, "You know what, guys? I'm currently about 8 years from retirement. I'm on track to retire at age 46. Cool, huh? And that's in spite of the fact that G and I started saving late and have 8 children between us, 6 of whom are still living at home! Although age 46 would be a great achievement, I might be able to get there at 45 or even 44 if I don't eat out at $30 sushi restaurants so often. In fact, why don't you guys go grab some take-out and come back, and then we can all eat together in the break room while I explain how this stuff works so you can do it too?"

    The really ironic thing is that I know many of them will be dying for me to explain all this once I retire and am no longer around. :-)

    EDIT: I really appreciate all these responses. It helps to know we're not alone!

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. 

    ffj
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 344

    Holy Cow! You've got the ultimate trump card for those awkward conversations: eight children! The next time you are invited to the designer sushi bar with a 30 dollar lunch tab, politely explain the need for new shoes, or braces, school clothes, whatever for the kids. No one in their right mind would judge you for choosing your childs welfare over an expensive lunch. As long as you are tactful and polite, I can't see where you would go wrong.

    As far as discussing money in the workplace, I feel that it is a bad idea all around. There is so much competition, and secrets, and jealousy in most workplaces that you may inadvertantly open up a can of worms when you were only seeking an honest conversation. I should clarify that the places I have worked at have been this way; possibly your place of employment is different. Anyway, that's why places such as this site are so great. Open discussions with plenty of intelligent feedback, which is something I have never found at any place I've ever worked.

    Thanks for the clarification, and tell the hubby to come on board. Everybody's welcome.

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. 

    george
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 212

    Part of the answer is strategy. if you go out for drinks, make one a beer, the rest lime and water.

    Or if you go out for a meal have half a buffalo wedges, or half a nachos and eat dessert (its often cheaper) or have a main and a coffee instead of dessert. Or share the bread with someone and have a dessert.

    And have something to eat before you go out.

    Drinking - If everyone is buying rounds, get there early and drink slowly, they'll soon learn.

    And if you feel you need to buy something, but a bowl of chips to share, it's cheaper than a round.

    Agree with vireoes, A pot luck meal or barbeque works. (everyone brings salad and meat or dessert and meat)

    Any other ideas for social solutions?

    And eight children - they'd have to be pretty dumb to not understand you're economising.

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. 

    livinlite
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Feb '12
    Posts: 108

    I'm an INFP, so I may not belong here..or anywhere for that matter ;)

    But I too struggle with all of the things in this thread. It's hard to be different, even when normal is just a fiction. I look around at my work and no-one is the prototypical normal office worker..yet they all are..and so am I. They each are doing what's important to them based on their upbringing, social adaptation, etc. And everyone varies to a degree.

    I try to keep that in mind at all times and view people from what I can imagine it to look like living out of their brains/eyes. What I see is that they are just as insecure and seeking of approval as I am.

    The only difference may be that I've started a process of thinking recursively about all this and therefore may be able to step outside of that insecurity at some point. We'll see..still a work in progress.

    I find a good grounding in some concepts of reality construction and non-dual thinking, zen, and the like, can go a long ways towards flipping the switch on conventional stuff. It makes it easier to deal with most people and see through the pretense..but it can also insert a layer of frustration when you struggle to hold that view with people you know more closely: spouse, parents, etc. Again, still a work in progress.

    Complete, but improving towards further harmony.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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