I'm a chronic cheap laptop buyer. They last like three years and then the motherboards fry, the memory eats itself, the hard drives go bad, or they get so outdated that I can't run video editing software.
What do you folks have? My priorities are processor speed (video making) and battery life (very limited electricity).
Best I've seen are ThinkPads, first by IBM now by Lenovo. They cost more up front but are durable, and are sold in large quantities so you can get replacement parts on eBay.
I also have to vote for ThinkPads; stay away from the Edge series, though, I've heard iffy things.
My vote also goes for ThinkPad. They are tough and rugged. Had one T400 at work for two years. The red button is a cool feature for VI/VIM lovers! This neglected feature is what makes ThinkPads worth it :)
Apple and lenovo. In that order. on a generic pc there are many video editing solutions that range from junk to middling. apple here, IMHO, wins hands down. battery life is relative ( as non liner editing is not battery friendly ). finally, if your tied to non apple based os's - apples laptops can boot windows, linux etc in addition to OSX
I still have and use daily a 4.5 yr old 1st gen apple macbook pro, amongst my stable of computers.
Given this audience - cheap is not a high value. Durability and use is. So, FWIW I'd lean Apple
I've never been able to keep a laptop more than 4 years. Most of the time they become unable to keep up with the Web content (I wish I could turn off adobe flash but then videos and other things don't run), can't run newer software, lose update support, hard drives get filled up, or they simply become worn out (touchpad, display hinges, etc).
So, my target has been 4 years and my Dells and HPs have all met that goal except for the battery. Batteries I seem to go through every 2-3 years. I imagine most major manufacturers' laptops should keep at least 4 years. One could also pay a bit more upfront to buy a 3 year warranty and use Amex to make the purchase and gain 1 extra year of warranty from Amex as a side benefit.
I have somewhat higher expectations of tablets. The apps generally don't require particularly beefy hardware (at least they haven't so far) and there are no moving parts. I do think the internal batteries will probably need to be replaced after a few years.
Thinkpad T Series is the gold standard. IBM still sells them refurbished online. They are reconditioned like new and deeply discounted. With Ubuntu installed, that are a joy to use. I bought one last week, and they were including a one year warranty free.
If you're technically inclined and living the ERE lifestyle, I do not like Apple since they are generally not serviceable.
Wow thanks again guys! And what do you think about dell netbooks? Do you have some experience with them? And what about netbooks or other brands?
Does anyone know where I can buy laptops that are likely to last a long time, but come without an OS preinstalled? ThinkPad looks good, but they seem to come with Windows preloaded, and no other options, which to me is just a total waste of money.
I will second the ThinkPads. I have used them at work for years and they seem to take some abuse. Of course, like any other computer in 4 years they will be outdated. The red mouse control button is also awesome, as touchpads are virtually useless.
If you don't trully need mobility, but just get the laptop because you like to work in bed or just not at a desk you may want to consider a desktop. If you buy a one with a decent motherboard you could probably make it last double the laptop, as you could swap in a new processor in a few years. This would save money on the front end and the upgrade.
Also, SSD drives instead of traditional hard drives are more reliable, but expensive. However, the traditional drives will probably continue going up in price as the factory that makes 80% of the spindle motors (Thailand) is underwater. They estimate it may take 12 months to get it back up and running.
@bigato
I have yet to see a netbook that is worth much. If you need the keyboard then buy an older model or a refurbished one, as you obviously won't care if the tech is dated or you wouldn't be looking for a netbook. Or, if all you want to do is surf the web and only need to type a few sentences now and then get a tablet. Heck, even the Kindle Fire surfs the net better than most netbooks.
@bigato : Consider the "ultra books" that are coming online recently - Better specs, very portable. IMHO, many, not all, netbooks have some killer compromise that throws me off ( weird screen resolution, crappy trackpad ) - especially the early ones - borderline unusable.
@tzxn3 : Buying with no OS or free OS generally means craiglist/local/ebay and used. When I was big into selling used stuff, I generally loaded up the RedHat / Ubuntu at the time to demo all the features working. IBM "might" have reconditioned Thinkpads sans OS - but I've never looked. > scratch that -- all reconditioned thinkpads have Windows something loaded <. If dealing local you could always ask for some discount since you dont need Windows XXX ( the seller could then reuse the key - and your both happy )
@dot_com_vet : All laptops can be a pain to service :)
Finally I would second Chad's suggestion of a desktop - especially down to the mini-ITX form factor. You control all the variables, using mostly COTS parts. As you get down to miniATX and miniITX size, the size isnt that inconvenient and you have options not available in laptops ( changing CPU/RAM, storage and video cards at whim or budget )
Another vote for Apple here...I have a MacBook Pro (Core 2 Duo) coming up on 6 years of daily use. I've replaced the keyboard (spilled a drink on it), replaced one of the internal boards (related to the drink incident, most likely), and upgraded the hard drive from (80GB to 500GB for increased storage, it still worked).
I don't know how the newer models are, but it has been easy to diagnose and get parts for (here's a source, for example: http://www.ifixit.com ). I can boot into windows when I need to and have been very pleased all around.
@dotdot : Heh, your posting of your details ( I have a Core Duo, not Core 2 ) made me check my purchase date on the 15" MBP ... I bought it May 2,2006. So, its been working 5.5+ years, rather than 4.5. Funny.
It can still edit HD video :)
Original disk, memory, LCD. I do recall replacing the main board under warranty about a year in. As predictable, I replaced the battery last year from OWC ( so delayed I ended up with a 40% discount ).
Ok, Apple first vote, Thinkpad second.
Discuss amongst yourselves ;)
If you buy a computer with Windows preinstalled and never use it, it is possible, though difficult, to get a refund: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund
I have been happy with Toughbook: no moving parts (passive cooling), water resistant (can be hosed from any angle), day light viewable screen, and construction that will outlive me. Still, it is hard to stay relevant with computer that is much older than 5 years so the extra spend on "quality" may no be of real benefit...
Why don't they make laptops where you can swap out the processor or add another stick of memory?
A good chunk of laptop cases allow for adding another stick of RAM, just sometimes, depending on the layout of the motherboard, you have to remove the keyboard. Beyond that, I don't know of many cases that allow for access to the CPU, aside from partial disassembly; with that said, I don't know if that last statement is true of laptops today, but it was mostly true a couple years ago.
So, how long do thinkpads last?
Riparian, I just retired a T43, build date was 2005. It's almost like new still, but I need something more powerful for multimedia.
"Why don't they make laptops where you can swap out the processor or add another stick of memory? "
The technologies develop too fast to maintain the same processor footprint. Also, your laptop motherboard will generally have a video chip and other supporting components that the industry deems obsolete after a few years and they will either be incompatible with the new processors or will not perform properly with them. Memory and hard drive are about the only things you can upgrade but it is usually not worth it after 3-4 years. I tend to buy $400-500 laptops and turn them over every 4 years, then along with the latest components I get a bigger hard drive, more memory, and a fresh battery.
I have an apple powerbook from 2004(!)
The hardware has literally outlasted the software.
It's based on a powerpc chip which is not supported beyond OSX 10.5.8 and unfortunately the newest version of, say, firefox, no longer runs on 10.5. Maybe it's possible to keep it running by switching it over to linux.
PS: I did manage to destroy the original HD but had it replaced under an extended warranty. Since then I've been careful about shutting the laptop down (not just sleep) whenever I've transported it around.
PPS: The PSU eventually died (cable frayed) and was replaced. I'm on my THIRD battery.
PPPS: Apparently these things still list for $299 on ebay. I paid 1100 or 1300 or something.
Remembering back to pre-2002 or somewhere thereabouts, in the Army, we were issued those Panasonic Tough Books. Tech was of course that era, and not so uppity as today. Memory was in MB and it was considered fantastic. I still have mine and I think it still works. I remember it had something like a metal device that slid into the side and you attached a phone cable and you were on the OMG! internet. You could open them and see inside them, I don't probably know what I was looking at though. It would qualify as a good doorstop today, but it was pretty hard (even for me) to break. I still have the instruction manual (written in armynesse) and the case and metal deal that hooked to the phone. I supose they still make them only with all the upity stuff of today in them.
I have had both Thinkpads and Fujitsu laptops. I can recommend both, but Fujitsu produces at a lower volume, and therefore is less serviceable. But it has a nice metal bottom, and has lasted me 6 years (after purchasing it used).
Hard drives: they will eventually fail. Thinkpads add some protection here (accelerometer detects if the laptop is falling and will stop the HD before crashing), but it's something you should plan for anyway. Anything with a motor (HD and fans) will likely fail first. But in a serviceable laptop, both are user-replaceable!
Motherboard: Properly made -- and properly cooled -- these can last a very long time. Still have a Thinkpad 560 running 24/7... decades after manufacture. One tip might be to not buy the larger laptops (17"). Users have a tendency to pick up their laptop with one hand from the corner of the case; this scan cause motherboard flexing and premature failure. Smaller laptops can be more rigid, in this sense.
Sidenote: I can get discounts on new and used Thinkpads; PM me if you're interested.
The stupid-fast software evolution is definately a problem. For example, support for XP will end in two years. My family has three computers running it and I do not know what I will do when the time comes...
I have a 2011-model MacBookPro. It seems like a lot of money for one, but from what I hear, they LAST.
I stopped chasing the hardware and software evolution. It's going insane. They develop video cards that are far superior than the games developed today so i stopped caring.
But i think i'll second the rcamp suggestion of a desktop with mini-itx boards. Small, strong and durable with it's upgrades. Boot up some linux and you're good to go.
I had a Fujitsu lifebook that was an absolute tank... As someone who has taken apart 10-20 laptops over the years, that one was in a league of its own.
I need processing power for my job. I really enjoy it for my hobbies too. And I HATE laptops because of their inability to be upgraded... A laptop feels like a toy compared to a desktop.
I just upgraded my almost 10 year old Antec case and 6 year old PC Power & Cooling 750W PSU with a new i5 2500k CPU, LGA1155 mobo, 16GB DDR3 1600. Total cost: about $250 (thanks Microcenter) and I'm good for another 3 years on the cutting edge.
$250 in a desktop will give me about 3-8 multiples of the benchmark of the most powerful $3000 laptop you can buy... And greatly reduced risk, increased return. IE: Any laptop manufacturer repair out of warranty requires specialty part(s) that often (usually?) rival the cost of replacement.
I know that laptops are sexy, and the only solution for today's go-go-getters writing business plans in coffee shops but 85% of their use seems to be people crouching over them awkwardly on a table... IMO, most people would be better of with a desktop.
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That all said, I'm looking for a laptop myself... I know that for professions that require calcs, Sager and Clevo has a good reputations. But they are ridiculously expensive.
I'm thinking the best way might be to just get a good deal on a researched, fairly well reviewed $400-600 machine. Then hope for the best... Some will last years, some might last months, others might crash as soon as the warranty expires. Here's a list to start with maybe: http://www.squaretrade.com/pages/laptop-reliability-1109
CPU footprint sockets do not change so rapidly as to make upgrading impractical... My observation has been 1 socket should be good for at least 2 CPUs (1 upgrade) and 4 years min... Just take care to avoid sockets already on their way out. ll55 should be good for at least another 3 years for top of the line. Many casual users are still doing great on P4 775.
Why is there no standard laptop platform? It's might have something to do with the obsession with thinner and thinner electronics. Or maybe it's just too profitable keeping them as disposable consumer goods. Standardize some laptop parts for pity's sake already.
JohnnyH: I have also been quite pleased with my Fujitsu laptop (bought used). Still, if I were in the market today, I'd be looking at Thinkpads. Lenovo is one of the few that still publishes service manuals for their laptops, allowing for easy repair. And while replacement of proprietary components may be expensive, there is a large supply of parts for Thinkpads on eBay. I have gone Frankenstein on several old Thinkpads, with good results.
Even given that, I still like having a desktop, for the same reasons you stated.
Just to throw something else out there:
If you have access to a PC already (e.g. a public library computer), but what you really want/need is to have your own secure operating system with your own apps on it, AND if your primary usage scenario doesn't involve gaming, then I would recommend seeing if a live USB stick would work for you instead of a laptop. (This is when you install an operating system of your choice onto a USB drive, then plug it into a PC and use the USB's operating system for your work instead of the PC's operating system.)
It's far less expensive than a laptop but it has most of the same functionality. In addition, you can make copies of your entire "computer" quite easily, and you don't have to worry as much about it being stolen or destroyed.
If you have a smartphone with a large SD card in it (8 GB or more), it's even possible to turn that SD card into a live USB.
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