Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Lifestyle Questions

1. 

   TheLuckyWizard
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Dec '11
   Posts: 45

   I consider myself quite frugal and with this I have what I think is a good savings rate and I've starting investing quite aggressively. I'm in my early 20's and because of this I've really had to keep this quiet.

   I know the issue of not being able to tell people about ERE has been talked about before and the issue of savings and investing usually ends in keeping it to yourself and this is where my problem is.

   I know that most of my family and friends would consider ERE to be insane, because of this I have never mentioned it around them. One of my friends is into investing so I can discuss some ideas around him but when they closer to ERE he starts to take the age old "that's unrealistic" approach. This doesn't really bother me as I know ERE generally comes with the mandatory silence unless people don't mind being looked at like an alien. (slight hyperbole)

   As in most countries, Ireland is very tight lipped about personal finance and nobody really brings up their finances so in most cases I don't have a problem.

   Keeping quiet about havings savings and investments doesn't bother me. Most people my age assume I'm just broke the whole time. I usually pass off things I don't want to spend on with the line, I can't afford it, which is great in your early 20's because so many other people are broke it's completely socially acceptable.

   I may have been rambling a bit so I'll get to the point of the Op. My girlfriend is the exact opposite of me. I love the girl to bits but she is the ultimate consumer. She's owes more money on her car loan than the car is worth and she constantly wants to do X expensive activity or buy Y shiny piece of jewellery, even though she definitely cannot afford it.

   I have very mildly tried to suggest some ideas on sorting her finances before and have consistently been brushed off. I have tried a few times to explain that I just happened to be reading about this interesting idea called FI or how this person retired early by doing this, and every time she just brushes it off as being a pipe dream.

   I have told her about the savings I have but every time I save past a certain number I invest most of it. I've never brought up where my savings disappear to and she just assumes I've spent it because thats her nature. Whenever she hears about my savings it's never very impressive so I don't get a questioning. On the other hand I know she is completely anti-investing as she always calls people idiots for investing since she's heard of so many people getting burned in the last few years. While at the moment it has been alright for me simply not telling her what I'm up to I feel dishonest for not telling her and I know eventually I will have to let her in on my plans.

   I am a bit stumped with the route to take. I've tried the softly softly approach and its getting me nowhere. I don't know how to be a bit more forward with it.
   I can see myself possibly marrying my SO in the future but our differences of opinion when it comes to finances could create a problem. If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears.

   I really don't have a clue what to do.

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. 

   flyer2009
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Nov '11
   Posts: 37

   One's view on finances is one of the biggest values in a relationship, right up there with religion, children, etc. It usually doesn't change except following some major life event like bankruptcy. It may be coming from her family's habits or from her own mindset. You are right about needing to weigh that carefully.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. 

   bigato
   

   Master
   Joined: Mar '11
   Posts: 917

   If she has no curiosity, flexibility, and is not open for learning I tell you it won't work.

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. 

   Spartan_Warrior
   

   Master
   Joined: Dec '11
   Posts: 500

   My advice? If it's truly serious, then be upfront. You can hide your finances from pretty much everyone except your (potential) wife. Tell her in no unclear terms that you are investing your money and you intend to achieve financial independence. Make sure she understands how you view and think about money. That's step one. Step two is gauging her reaction once she understands the importance of this goal in your life. If it doesn't seem like she'll ever get on board, the best case scenario would probably be keeping separate finances if you marry so you can use your money your way and she can use hers her way.

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. 

   mikeBOS
   

   Master
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 554

   hmmmm. If you're investing in any gold I'd just make sure none of it's in the shape of a ring.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. 

   LiquidSapphire
   

   Master
   Joined: Jul '11
   Posts: 434

   My first reaction was noooooooooooooo don't do it! So many people fight about money, it is one of the top causes of divorce.

   Honestly... I wouldn't get married. Doesn't mean you can't stay together, doesn't mean you can't share your lives, but don't get married. Marriage is a legal contract, first and foremost, that makes your two legal entities one. Even if you keep your finances separate, if she runs up $50,000 in credit cards while you are married, guess what... that is joint debt. Even if she does it behind your back and you have no idea. (Happens every day!) Marriage is a piece of paper. Whether or not you are married doesn't say anything about how much you love her.

   Also money is somewhat of a proxy for values... you value financial independence, freedom. She values stuff. That is a huge disconnect and it is hard to be a team navigating through life (which is already hard enough) when you are coming from such extremes. I would actually almost argue "Impossible" to be a team if you are really that far away from each other.

   Until you guys are on the same financial page, or at least able to hammer out some kind of spending/savings agreement, and you trust and believe she'd actually stick to it, I would just keep things separate, and as they are.

   Alternatively, you could try premarital counseling to try to work through these issues...

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. 

   TheLuckyWizard
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Dec '11
   Posts: 45

   Thanks everyone. Some really good feedback there. Marraige is a long way off in my head but I'm a forward thinker, sometimes more forward than I should be but this community probably shares this with me.

   @flyer2009 It definitely is from her family's habits so it is thoroughly engrained in her.

   @bigato I have considered this but I'd like to explore all avenues before doing my usual thing of trying to get through every situation with cold hard logic.

   @Spartan_Warrior Thanks thats seems like the best approach to take :)

   @mikeBOS Haha don't worry I share Warren Buffett's opinion on Gold. If it doesn't produce anything I'm just not interested!

   @LiquidSapphire Like I said I've no inclination of getting married any time soon but both her and my family are big on marraige. She is very honest and is unable to hold her tongue on anything so she is almost physically unable to keep a secret so I've no worries about her hiding any debt from me.

   With this in mind I am kind of worried that when I tell her my goals, she will more than likely (not sure though) tell her family as they tell each other everything.

   Thanks a bunch everyone, it was really helpful to get some other views on this as it's something I've been worrying about for a while now. I'll give an update on how it goes when I work up the courage to have the talk with her

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. 

   rjack
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: May '11
   Posts: 48

   Unless you definitely know that you don't want to marry this girl, I would discuss you FI so that she understands that you are serious. If she has a negative reaction, I would move on.

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. 

   DividendGuy
   

   Master
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 414

   I would be firm here. As others have alluded to, one's view on finances is a crucial part of a relationship. If you two are on opposite sides of the aisle, then it may not be for the best.

   In the interest of disclosure, I plan on never getting married. I just cannot imagine becoming FI and saving up a ton of money and then being ruined by a relationship. I'm open minded to spending my life with someone, but completely against the idea of being contractually obligated to someone. Just my $0.02.

   I liked MikeBOS's comment! Good stuff.

   Best of luck!!!!

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. 

    C40
    

    Master
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 573

    Assuming that you want to find a girl to have a very long-term relationship with:

    You're doing yourself a dis-service by not telling her. If it is a big enough deal that you two might split up over it, then the sooner the better, so both you and her can find someone more compatible. If you tell her and nothing bad happens, or maybe she even changes, then that's good. So nothing bad will come from being honest and strait forward (given the above assumption) other than maybe some short-term heart ache.

    Sticking with the first assumption again - if you want to find someone to spend the rest of your life with, and if you're certain about your ERE/FI aspirations, then it is in your best interest to share your desires with potential SO's right away in order to filter to the ones that may work out with you.

    On the other hand, IF you're not in a hurry to find a life-long relationship, and you enjoy being with this girl, there's not really much wrong with keeping things as they are for now. If she asks questions, just be honest.

    Edit -- if/when you tell her... make sure you frame it from a point of view she would be more acceptable of. From what I hear, many women have a strong desire for financial stability (just forget for a moment that most women/people's behaviors are the exact opposite). So rather than focus on the "I don't want to work" part, you might want to focus more on the "I want to be able to do whatever I feel like - travel, hobbies, raise children, dream job, etc.." and such...

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. 

    TheLuckyWizard
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 45

    Very good point C40, half of my problem is not knowing how to actually come out and explain it to her.

    The financial stability angle could do the job to open her mind to it. Cheers!

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. 

    palmera
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    if she has a sweet, caring boyfriend, then her constant need to consume will decrease over time.

    be honest about your lifestyle, and give her a chance to come to the darkside....:)

    also, be open to splurging on the big three: xmas, valentine's day and her birthday. other than that, frugal frugal frugal!

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. 

    George the original one
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,938

    Everyone's given you solid advice, should the relationship come to marriage. Even if you feel the love, money-stress will tear a marriage apart almost as surely as infidelity if you're not at least in the same book (if not the same page). Your side of the story is going to be "they spend too much" and their side of the story is going to be "they don't know how to have fun"... it's a reasonable argument, but we know you're right ;-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. 

    TheLuckyWizard
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 45

    @palmera As much as I'm frugal I know that any self respecting man frugal or not doesn't ignore the big three.

    So far I've managed to put a limit on it evertime which means I've out-cutesied her on ever occasion with well thought out small, cheap and cheerful presents with a few handmade ones to finish it off.

    The only problem is she completely ignored the budget for my last birthday and bought me the laptop I'm typing this on but sure who am I to complain... :-D

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 917

    Hey! I do ignore those three and we are happy about it.

    OP, do explore all the avenues but be sure to take a conscious decision at some time. Not taking a decision is already a decision too. Also be sure not to engage in some path where you cannot get back.'

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. 

    TheLuckyWizard
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 45

    Bigato as much as I don't claim to understand much about women, I do know that even the most unmaterialistic woman likes a bit of extra attention splashed on her at these 3 (whether she says so or not)

    Palmera is definitely on the right track with "the big 3"
    It may not even have monetary value but making some extra effort on these dates should always be on the cards.

    *Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzDK70zO-Eo

    This was shown to me recently and if you can figure it out, you probably understand why you should make an effort for the big 3. Don't worry if you don't, I had it explained to me several times and I still barely understand :o

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. 

    GandK
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 271

    A reformed free-spirit spender's perspective:

    When someone isn't on board with frugality, the problem is simple: they don't have a clear vision about WHY they're saving money.

    I used to be just like your girlfriend. I met my tightwad husband, we got married, and he was coming to me saying, "We need to save money!" I was like, "Cool! For what?" His answers never did anything for me. "Retirement" to me, at that time, sounded like the absence of work. That image is only inspiring to me when I'm in need of a nap.

    My husband then made a common tightwad mistake: he thought explaining HIS vision to me - over and over and over, in many different terms - would eventually inspire me. It didn't/doesn't. We are way too different for me to be inspired by his goals.

    My attitude changed when we both put some serious effort into establishing a vision for my future. Try asking her this question and see where the conversation takes you:

    "What would you do with your time if you could do anything at all? If money was no object, and you didn't have to spend 65 hours a week either getting ready to chase money, chasing money, or recovering from having just chased money, what sorts of things would you do with your day? Create that perfect day in your mind." Then move on to "perfect life." (Whatever you do, don't judge her comments out loud!)

    Get her talking and keep her talking about HER wants and needs for the next month or so. I know it sounds dangerous to ask a spender to discuss their wants but she needs to start thinking about the underlying WHY of saving. She may not know the answer to the question. It took me weeks to figure it out. I'd spent years just floating through life with no goals. But once I did, once I got a clear image of how I'd design my life if I didn't have to give away my time in order to earn a living, my attitude changed. Right then. When my husband turned to me and said, "We can make all that happen if we do this: ..." I got on board. And every time we pass a milestone it gets easier. I still want to spend money on random junk sometimes, but now there's something I want more. And you can't do what some people here are suggesting and somehow magically pass YOUR wants, needs and dreams on to her. She needs to grow her own vision, and become aware through you that its within her reach. THAT'S your role.

    One last thing: don't get caught up in trying to make your dreams match. People mature and change with time, so neither of your dreams are carved in stone. The important thing is that each of you have what you personally need in order to want to lay money aside. Once we have half a million dollars set aside we can sit around and argue over whether to move to a goat-farming commune.

    Good luck!

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. 

    kevinlk
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 3

    What I would add to this is that the OP and likely gf are still in their early 20s. That's when young people start making "big money" (in their eyes) and have urges to spend, spend and spend as they can now afford it, kinda similar to kids going to bars every day for a few years just because they can.

    I would say to open her mind to your ideas but if she's not willing to go that way, wait perhaps a year and then revisit it. Ask her if that year of spending brought her any increase of happiness and ask her if she's willing to work until 65 or if it would be better to retire very early and enjoy all the time in the world. If at that point she decides to remain a spender, then move on or stay in with the thought that it will never be a lifelong relationship that will break once kids come into the picture, or she insists on having a Mcmansion.

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. 

    Shandi76
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 111

    It sounds like you make a good couple asides from the different attitudes to money. Given how young you both are, I wouldn't be in a hurry to break it off. As others have said, she may come round to your way of thinking in a couple of years time.

    My BF and I don't have the same attitude to money. He's not that materialistic, and doesn't care about having a McMansion or designer clothes etc. But he says he 'doesn't care about money' and doesn't track his spending and he spends a lot on DVDs and books. We keep our finances separate, so we both share household expenses then I get to save what I like and he gets to do what he likes with his discretionary funds. It works for us.

    As long as she's not looking for you to support her or inflate her lifestyle then it could work out for you. Of course, if she wants to be a stay at home parent while you support the family financially, and she isn't open to reducing expenses, then that would probably be a deal breaker.

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. 

    palmera
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    bigato! come on, man, you must do something for those big three. it doesn't even have to cost money! borrow a guitar and serenade her under her window or something cheesy like that. being made to feel special is AWESOME and women REWARD that kind of behaviour ;)i'm a simple girl, but my BF doesn't f*ck around when it comes to this.

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 917

    We provide for each other through the whole year. She works for me, I work for her, and we work for the plans we have for a family. I give something to her when I feel she needs it or would like it, and I never give anything on dates.
    We agree xmas and valentine's days are bullshit made up for comsuption increase, and in birthdays we usually have some talking about our life. Sometimes we make a big dinner at home. I also remember that once this year I've found a beautiful and good smelling flower by the side of the road in my way home at night. It is from a wild small tree that gives its flower once a year and they last less than one week. She was sick that day, and I thought that would make her day better.

    But most of what people think is romantic seems just plain bullshit to me. I don't think I'm special and I think very few people in the world and in history were really special. I think if I ever thought I was special I would be lazy. Everything I get is from hard work. But I and the people I relate to may be valuabe to each other. That depends on how much we work together for the same goals. Do I sound like a very cold person?

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. 

    TheLuckyWizard
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 45

    @GandK Really good points, she also doesn't understand why I want goats but that's a story for another day ;)

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. 

    palmera
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    no bigato, you don't sound like a person.

    I'm not a big romantic person or a big family person. However, at the very least, having a set amount of re-occurring days throughout the year that forces one to take time out of their busy/distracting lives to appreciate family. Well, I'm all up for that.

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. 

    jennypenny
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 1,338

    @bigato, I'm with you. We don't do gifts on xmas, and all we do on our anniversary is get away from the kids for the night. Re: valentine's day--all 3 of my kids are born 9 months after valentine's day. Two of my kids are born exactly 9 months after (yup, same birthdate 4 years apart). So BEWARE of romance on valentine's day ;)

    @OP--Your girlfriend just sounds a little insecure. You guys are young so things might change. But now that I'm old enough to have watched over half of my friends and family get divorced, I do agree that all divorces come down to the 3 F's (of course it could be said that everything does).

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. 

    S
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 288

    @palmera and bigato My husband and I don't make a big deal out of those three either. Valentine's day is a fake holiday. It especially has zero romance for me because I grew up working long hours in a flower shop every year that day (very profitable!). For Christmas we put up a little fake tree from the thrift store and complained about having to buy other people presents, but didn't exchange any ourselves. We go usually do go out for dinner on birthdays but don't do gifts. We aim to treat each other well all year round and just don't make a big deal about holidays.

    @OP I would be very nervous getting married to this person, but I have had the luck of never dating a spendthrift. If you do, this seems like a situation where separate finances are a must.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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