Early Retirement Extreme Forums » DIY Skills Questions

How smart do you have to be to grow food?

(23 posts)
  1. fromzero

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 15

    I've seen it mentioned several times on this site that "growing food is not rocket science" and "it doesn't take much brain power to grow food."

    If you want to spend your money on dumping fertilizer on your soil (and killing the microorganisms that your plants need to absorb those nutrients) and waste a lot of water to irrigate and wash all that expensive fertilizer right off the land instead of figuring out how to make your soil store water for you, it doesn't take much education. It doesn't take a biologist to identify the insects you find on your crops to figure out if they're good bugs or bad bugs—you can just spray some pesticides and all the bugs will die. Anyone can do it.

    Your first year's yield will assure you that you're doing everything right. Next year might not do as well, but just add some more NPK and everything will be fine. You've killed off the bugs, but the ones that eat your plants by nature recover and develop resistance faster than the ones that eat other bugs, so soon you'll have a huge pest boom and have to buy more, and more expensive, pesticide. As the soil gets burnt by the excess NPK fertilizer it holds less water, which means more money into irrigation, which washes off the fertilizer, so you have to put more fertilizer on. Within four or five years you'll realize you're sinking more and more money into fertilizers, pesticides, and irrigation, and every year your soil is getting worse, and in the end you see why big time conventional farmers can only make it with subsidies.

    Everyone on this forum is too smart for this losing game. We can figure it out with the same brain power that tells us it doesn't make sense to hire someone to clean our house if we can do it ourselves in a few minutes a day, for free. If some bugs are doing the work of a pesticide for free, we should let em do it instead of spending money on the pesticides. We can figure out that if the soil can hold more water if it isn't tilled too much and it's topdressed with some mulch or straw, that will save us money on irrigating. We know, or can learn easily, how to manage a rotational and/or intercropping plan to increase the soil nutrition year after year through the actions of legumes and rhizobial bacteria and livestock, for free, instead of using purchased fertilizer that in the end will actually decrease soil fertility. And we know the nitrogen cycle backwards and forwards and which soil amendments can add calcium and phosphorous without throwing off the pH balance too much. Right?

    There is a science to it. A good farmer can feel a soil's texture and make a guess at its fertility, its micronutrient content, and whether it has enough calcium to prevent blossom end rot if s/he plants tomatoes there. I feel like some people think farmers just throw some seed on the ground and food comes out. It's not that simple, but if you use some brain muscle before you use some brawn muscle, you can actually help set up an ecosystem that will do most of that work for you. Growing food doesn't take much brain power, but doing it right, and frugally, and productively, without killing yourself, does.

    What do you folks think? DIY it or find a farm manager who will work for rent or just keep buying groceries?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. sky

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 196

    the secret to gardening is manure

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. fromzero

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 15

    Well, one secret to gardening is manure. A lot of organic farmers manure and forget about calcium and end up with calcium-deficient soils, for example. For another—do you top-dress with manure or till it in? Depends on your soil structure, among other things.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Bingeworker

    Apprentice
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 48

    In my opinion, unless someone is genuinely interested in gardening and food-growing, it's not worth it to try to grow your own food to save money. It just doesn't save money when done on a small scale, unless you have a lot of experience and have been doing it for several years, and even then it doesn't save that much for the effort it takes. It's a lot of drudgery (unless you enjoy gardening) for very little financial savings. In a different economic climate where food cost more it might be more worth it, but in North America it just isn't.

    I say this as someone who is interested in and enjoys gardening, and who has been the coordinator of a community garden. I've seen so many gardeners over the years who start out so keen and within a couple of weeks their plot has gone to weeds and nothing has grown.

    Gardening and food growing takes daily attention to do it properly. Unless someone is interested in it independently of any ERE plans, and has the personality where they can stick to something and do it even on those days they really don't want to, it would tend to use up money, and time where money could more easily be earned in other activities, rather than produce it.

    That said, for someone who enjoys it, they will most likely come out a bit ahead on their food bill by growing some of their own veggies. But it's not a guarantee!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. jennypenny

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 1,391

    I'm a bit enthralled with Paul Wheaton's permaculture site right now. I'm trying to figure out how to adapt his ideas to a suburban setting. Sustainable and not as much work once you're set up.

    I also think the key is choosing what you grow wisely. I do well with tomatoes, peppers and herbs so I grow as much as I can. We have local strawberry and blueberry farms that are fairly inexpensive if you pick your own so I don't grow those. Potatoes and onions are too cheap to bother growing my own. We also grow lots of pole beans. I'm going to try citrus in our new sunroom/greenhouse.

    We hardly spend any money on our gardening efforts. I grow from seed when possible, use recycled containers instead of pots, and divide or propagate plants as much as possible. Our garden isn't really pretty, but it's cheap and as earth-friendly as I can get it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. riparian

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 358

    Huh. I add compost. Manure some years and rotten fish heads some years. I plant seeds outside when it gets warm enough because I don't have a consistently temperatured, windowed spot for starts. I water them for the first couple weeks and then I ignore except for picking or watering when there's no rain for a while. The next year I plant more of what grew the year before. Mustard greens, peas, lettuce, cabbage, turnips. Ixnay on the tomatoes, pumpkins, etc. People say the moose will clean it out, but they havent yet. The wild forest outgrows my garden every year for free and easy.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. FrugalZen

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    Big fan of Square Foot Gardening or Container Gardening.

    Tomatoes are a must...they hit $2.99 a lb last week at Wally World...an that wasn't even the organic ones.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. LonerMatt

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 173

    I love gardening, it's not really work for me (most of the time) - I love watching my plants grow, I love eating my own produce.

    There are a lot of strategies, kind of like investing, and it doesn't necessarily matter which one you chose. Just go for it. There's not that much you can do to land that won't see it recover. There are dozens of organic, natural, beneficial ways to help soil improve in the long term, so don't be worried.

    Last year I was a NPK gardener. This year I'm a permaculture convert: the differences are outstanding. Not going back, better growth, better yields, less water used, healthier plants, healthier soil, less headache for me :).

    My take is this: if you've got a large property, and you want everything to go right, and the property to be established quickly and easily, and don't want to do it yourself, then a farm manager is the best choice. If you're happy to tackle it more slowly, taking a few years to get things up and running and enjoying the experiments along the way nothing comes close to doing it yourself.

    Here are some blogs for people about growing:
    http://www.happyearth.com.au/ - Permaculture in the 'burbs.
    http://milkwood.net/2011/12/24/milkwood-forest-garden-zero-to-now/ - Larger "farm" (not massive, I think 10 acres or so) a work in progress.

    But there's also many, many people who document starting with a tract of wasted, dessicated land and rejuvenating it over a period of 2-3 years. They weren't rocket scientists, and many were learning as they went.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. George the original one

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,974

    > Gardening and food growing takes daily attention to
    > do it properly.

    Depends on the crop and method. I don't have oodles of time to devote to gardening even though I enjoy it. Instead, I concentrate on high value crops that do fine while being ignored for extended periods of time.

    For western Oregon, that's peas, cabbage, spinach, spring lettuce, beets, potatoes, corn, fruit trees, nut trees, squash, garlic, grapes, and berries. As much as I can, I dry garden, so that watering is seldom done/needed.

    Insects and weeds are tolerated unless they're creating an infestation. Annual liming is done for most crops in my climate. Crops are rotated to reduce insect populations. Seeds are saved where appropriate. Compost added to improve the clay soil structure.

    My current favorite tool is heavy black plastic. Used as a removeable ground cover to manage weeds year round and keep the soil drier in the winter (let it get one rain shower before covering) so it can be tilled sooner for the spring crops.

    [And then, after writing all that, I have to add that not all climates are equal. The important thing is to grow what's appropriate for your climate and if your climate doesn't match what you like to eat, then you better move or adapt!]

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. bigato

    Expert
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 1,026

    Masanobu Fukuoka would be raging to listen to you talk like this.

    Last year I just tossed some seeds around, a lot of kinds of seeds. Some have grown, some not, some have grown very well, and some even reseed themselves. I did no weeding for the most of the time. I was just experimenting. My grandparents and most of the people here at their time did very well without any of that knowledge about chemical and only empirical knowledge about organic methods. I have an aunt who just put her organic waste to her backyard and weed it out. She has the better tasting vegs that I know of. Some vegs she puts the seeds and take care closely; some just reseed themselves; others sprout from the seeds contained in her organic waste from the kitchen.

    It's much easier to harm nature with knowledge than by the lack of knowledge. Of course it is the superficial, partial knowledge that is the main problem. But all of our knowledge is incomplete. I can only bow to a system that keeps healing itself in face of everything we do to destroy it.

    About the financial side, it's important to remember to focus on high value crops only. If we can apply Paretto rule to gardening, it would go like that: 80% of the financial value of the vegetables you buy comes from 20% of those vegetables. You just focus in gardening the most expensive and the ones that requires less time and less space, and you just can't loose on the financial side. Of course it depends on the climate, but most climates have something that can be grown in it. If others are doing it with some degree of success, it can be done.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. dot_com_vet

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 394

    We love our garden, but probably lost 1/5 our yield to a rabbit. And that's with a pet greyhound. Smart rabbit, never got caught!

    It's hard to control nature, no matter how smart you are.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. fromzero

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 15

    Masanobu Fukuoka is an excellent example of what I'm talking about—a biologist who spent years observing a feral ecosystem that was growing lots of rice without any care by humans, and then years of experimentation learning to replicate that system. He didn't just walk into a field one day and think "I'm gonna throw some rice on the ground!" :D

    Although we can—and we can let the environment take care of that seed for us and grow what will do well there, and I certainly do that with cover crops and understory greens. But we have to know what plants to place and take care (and how to place them and take care of them), and what plants to scatter widely and leave to fend for themselves. And I think that takes a special kind of intelligence—one everyone can have but not everyone does: the ability to observe and reflect deeply on what you're seeing in front of you. Luckily, too, we have other people to learn from, Fukuoka and Wheaton and John Jeavons and Rosemary Morrow and our grandmothers and others.

    It reminds me of what I heard a permaculturist say one time—there are no experts and no know-nothings in permaculture. Meaning I guess that everyone has some intuitive sense of how ecosystems work innately, but also that there's an infinite amount to learn.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Mirwen

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 169

    I've had very poor results in my climate (low desert) compared to the amount of work and money I have put into gardening. I know many people successfully garden here, plus we have two growing seasons (spring and fall). I'm going to try one more season before throwing in the towel. However, even if gardening is a bust, I'm hoping to have good results with fruit trees (asian pear, fig, and pomegranate) once mine are mature. The trees seem to be much easier to care for and cost much less in time and resources than the garden. Plus, I can go away for a week and not worry about the trees dying. My garden would be crispy after a week without water.

    I agree that it takes a lot of time and effort to garden successfully. I don't have any past experience with gardening and it's difficult to learn from books. Experience is everything.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. LonerMatt

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 173

    Mirwen, look into Brad Lancaster's work. He's working in Arizona with great results.

    There are so many ways to moderate temperature, and increase moisture in soil without doing endless work, if you've got a will, there will be a way.

    Did you mulch the garden? Were you using synthetic fertilizer? Wat are the rain patterns like? Were things spaced out with open ground in between them? Or clumped together?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. EMJ

    Journeyman
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 171

    You don't have to be "smart" to grow food for yourself. But you do need to be able to learn. Ask local gardeners and extension agent, join a garden club, read, take notes of what works in your area and what doesn't, keep good records - almost any combination of these will make you more likely to succeed.

    If you can chose start with good soil, an established garden, good exposure, ample access to water.

    Know your site, start slowly with easy crops (varies from site to site) and build on your success, keep on top of weeds.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. ffj

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 363

    @Bigato
    Your post reminds me of my wifes uncle. He raises a huge garden by planting (and then nothing else, no watering, weeding, bug spraying, etc.) about 5 times more than he needs and then leaves the rest of the process to nature. He said that takes care of the wants of the deer, racoons, bugs, and weeds and still leaves him enough at harvest time with plenty for himself. It's an ugly garden with having to pull apart weeds to get to the veggies, but it works. And the cost of bulk seed isn't that cost prohibitive.

    @All
    Gardening isn't hard, it's just labor intensive. It all comes down to whether you want to invest the time it takes to raise a garden and the time it takes to harvest and process all of your bounty. There usually is a fairly narrow window to pick and can everything and the veggies and fruits aren't going to wait for you before they become overripe or spoil. That was never fun for me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. jack14

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 3

    I fell asleep half way through reading the post. Anyway, here’s some food for thought on the simplicity of growing.

    How much food are you talking about growing? What is the shelf life after harvest? Do you know how to "preserve" the food? Are you selling it or keeping it for home use. If you plan on selling the food how much will you spend on liability insurance in case of a salmonella outbreak or other food born illness that results in a lawsuit? Will you be using a horse and plow to till your soil or drop some cash on a tiller? What will your rate of return be on that tiller until it pays for itself? Will you be paying taxes on the food you sell? What do you know about Health Department regulations and paperwork? Will your farm “manager” be a legal citizen drawing a paycheck and paying into Social Security? Is it legal for you to hire your farm “manager” in exchange for rent?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. bigato

    Expert
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 1,026

    Hey c'mon Jack, don't be rude. The guy started a nice discussion.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. fromzero

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 15

    As Samuel Clemens is reported to have written at the top of a long missive, "Please excuse the length of this letter; if I had had more time, I would have made it shorter."

    TL;DR: My point was that even if gardening doesn't take the kind of brains it takes to do calculus or interpret string theory, it does take a kind of observational and problem-solving intelligence. And I'm happy to read the variety of approaches and challenges people have illustrated in their responses.

    Mirwen: Have you used swales for your fruit trees, or for your annual garden beds? Or hugelkultur beds, where you build up a mound of brush, large branches, and small-diameter logs and cover it with compost and straw, and plant into that? The wood should decay over time and create a sponge effect in the resulting loam, so that it holds moisture more effectively and carries it to the roots of all your plants. The fruit trees should help by creating sheltered spaces where water won't evaporate from the soil as quickly, and by adding organic matter when they drop leaves. You might interplant with some nitrogen fixing shrubs like mesquite—the mesquite beans can be used for a nutritious flour, or just feed them to chickens, if you have them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. LonerMatt

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 173

    Hugelkultur is a disaster in anywhere that is a warm climate. Especially if it's a place with termites or ants in abundance.

    It's not designed to work in those climates and, unsurprisingly, doesn't. It rots, but the soil temperature is too hot for most plants in summer, and requires more watering (the two main benefits of HK).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. fromzero

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 15

    LM: That makes sense, given where the model was developed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. LonerMatt

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 173

    The one exception to this is if the soil type is heavy clay, and a person lives in one of those strange parts of the world where it gets excessively hot and excessively wet (but not in the tropics).

    Then, smaller hills could be used (probably without all the dead wood) for better drainage. This isn't hugelkulture, though, this is raising planting beds. Even still, extra mulching would be needed to avoid plants dying/drying out in the summer.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. EMJ

    Journeyman
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 171

    Don't forget the effort and skills needed to preserve and store food through the winter.

    A good rule of thumb is that this takes about as much time as gardening - an often over looked aspect.

    Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.