Early Retirement Extreme Forums » ERE Journals

bigato's journal

(167 posts)
  1. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Hi. I'm gonna write my journal.

    My first year after discovering ERE is ending with good results. I discovered the blog following Amazon books. Like much of you did, started from the first article and read through until the last. Then I came to the forums.

    My first calculations indicated more than 20 years to retirement. Being 30 already, that would not be early. Heavily attacking the budget and starting to declutter, I soon could lower that number to 6 years. My wage is quite high (I probably will tell numbers latter), I was just not focused.

    I took the approach of reducing the expenses rather then trying to improve the income. Quickly I realized that I should attack the bigger expenses first. Food (mostly eating out) and housing being the bigger.

    Food would be easy to me to quickly change if I was still alone; but I'm married. We were already in the process of changing and bettering eating habits before ERE, because of health and not because of money. Since we married some three years ago. We tried a lot of strategies. Maybe I talk about it sometime. But to be short, this year is the last when I ever eat out out of pleasure. The exceptions will be social situations that we can't or don't want to avoid, or others that I decide that are fair. I took the decision power of the couple on that and it was not easy. Took me three years. By now I believe it's mostly done. So food budget is well under control. As we eat mostly brown rice and vegetables, with meat being rare, our food does not cost much. But the brown rice part is still expensive. Well, not much details yet or nobody will read my journal.

    Food budget didn't need much of my focus to be improved. Quickly housing stood up on the way. We were renting. One year before knowing ERE we were living in Sao Paulo, one of the biggest cities of the world and one of the most expensive ones in Brazil. When we moved to the countryside (I could kept inside the same company, a bank), we lowered our rent. But it was still good money. Details later. Then the main aim of the year turned in my head to be: "stop paying rent". Or at least paying so little as to be able to forget about it. I had no idea how I would accomplish that, but I was determined and had good examples in this site. I researched a lot of options and finally were able to find a ubber-cheap house and little plot of land for as little as two and a half months of my wage. More details are on the thread I started at the time in this forum.

    My wage improved well without effort of my part, not exactly because I got a promotion, but mostly because someone went away from the place and they had no option other than putting me in the function, as I was the only able to do it. It can drop again as soon as they get someone else, but the situation is holding up for now.

    I sold around 50 books, not much more than 10% of the total (they are slow to sell here in my country). But having books on sell turned out to a habit. Buying the kindle did help with that. I bought some books by the end of the year, but much less that the amount I was used to buy (almost every month). Also developed a better strategy to buy books, being more selective and acquiring only what I really want not only to read, but also to keep. The ones I only want to read, I'll sell afterwards.

    Well, more writing to come. But now the year is ending and my prediction is that I may be FI in 1.5 years from now. If I keep really focused, maybe even 1 year.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. LiquidSapphire

    Master
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 434

    Welcome to the journals!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. m741

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 733

    Glad to see you're keeping a journal. I always enjoy hearing your perspective on things. As with Jacob, it's quite different from my own - but I can always see where you're coming from.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Some more details about my progress:

    Transportation has never been an issue. Since I have got a bicycle when I was around 8 or 9 years, I always used to cycle as a means of transportation. People probably always thought that someday I was gonna grow and stop doing that, but since I'm almost 31 years old, I don't think it will ever happen. Sometimes when living in Sao Paulo I used more public transport than I should; that would be my faults in this area. But since moving to the countryside, that's bike that I ride most of the time, since public transportation does not exist inside my city and I rarely use buses to go from the city I live to the one I work in (9 km). So ERE didn't change me much in transportation. I also fix most of the problems myself and change parts of my bike when needed. Have some good clothes for year-round riding in any kind of weather we face here. As we have no snow, it is quite easy.

    I just updated my spreadsheet to reflect my wages and spending. It turns out that my core expenses are less than 11% of the take home pay. I'm not so much looking for ways to further reduce this, but it became a habit to always think of new ways to lower expenses. My core expenses now for myself and my wife, three dogs and two cats, are little more than the brazilian minimum wage: I'm at R$565/month. The biggest expense is the expensive organic high quality and tasteful short-grain brown rice, that is R$150/month alone. I order once a year, so that's a expense that I will deal with around next May. I believe that I may be able to lower my expenses to around R$300/month, around half of minimum wage. I would need more time to focus on growing food, solar water heating and some other few ideas. As much as I say that lowering expenses is not my main focus anymore, the fact is that once it becomes second-nature you just don't stop thinking about it.

    I'm also close to an interesting milestone: almost 120 months of core expenses in my net worth. That is 10 years if I just can keep up with inflation. That's around the amount Jacob said that would be enough for the people that are shooting for semi-retirement with some part-time jobs now and then. I must say that it feels good and it is making my life at the job much easier to deal with. I always remember MikeBOS talk with his mother when she asks how much his emergency fund will last. That's a good feeling.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. m741

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 733

    10 years of expenses saved is pretty good. I'm at about 80 months and I definitely feel free. I might have trouble for a few months in an emergency. But I don't feel like I could have continuous trouble for 7 years.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. LiquidSapphire

    Master
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 434

    That is really interesting, that if you have 10 years saved you can semi-retire. I am coming up on 12 years. I still don't feel comfortable jumping though because half of it is in tax deferred accounts I can't easily touch until I am 60... but there is a way to convert it here (called Roth Conversion) so maybe I'd look into that...

    Isn't having savings great, I LOVE having options, there is nothing sweeter.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    More then a third of my money is in an account that I will be able to touch only if I get fired or only three years after I stop to work. That's important. Before the end of the next year I should have enough liquid money to semi retirement without needing that money that is locked.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. palmera

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    Hi bigato, I'm so glad you started a journal!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. akratic

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 480

    Your expenses of R$565/month is the equivalent of $303 USD/month or under $3.7k USD/yr.

    I think you might officially be the most frugal poster we have! Well done.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Hi Akratic,

    Thanks, but I don't think so. It's not fair to compare different currencies this way. The minimum wage here can buy a lot of things. For example, Jacob if I'm not mistaken used to live on half the usa minimum wage, or something like that. But, on the other side, my expenses goes for me and my wife, and the pets. She is not working at the moment, but she is in charge of all work at the house. We prefer it this way. This way I have more time to train jiu jitsu and study, and she doesn't need to slave away at a job. She produces some things like whole flour breads and tofu that we can sell at farmer's market, but right now she's not doing it, but will start again next year. The money from this goes straight to her savings, as she has no expense in hour household. Another thing that she is doing this year is learn to grow some food. I do the heavier part on the weekends, and she does the more extensive parts, like taking off the sprouting weeds. I teach her what I know about it, and we learn together. I decided to focus more on growing food myself only after ERE, because I want to keep my training going and to make the jiu jitsu grow in my city.

    Also, that represents only the core expenses. I'm not including one-time expenses, one of the things I'm still learning to deal with. Like, this year I will need a bigger refrigerator (I have a 120 liters now). That is a consequence of not eating out at all. We have to keep things easy there for any situation. I had an idea these days about one time expenses, I'll try it and post here. Keep reading!

    Thanks also LS and Palmera for the welcome!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    In case someone is interested, below I post details about my monthly expenses. Currency is always brazilian "Real" (R$). What you see below is my current "ideal" budget. Reality does not match it exactly. Specially the food items currently. Around the beginning of 2012 I should probably have a more realistic budget written down.

    150 Brown Rice (organic, short grain)
    140 Farmer's market (mostly vegetables)
    85 Electricity
    40 Pets food
    40 Hygiene
    40 Internet
    34 Propane (for cooking)
    26 Water
    6 Cellphone
    4 Housing tax
    565 total

    Internet used to be 10/month, using the cellphone as a modem (details in the wiki), but I decided to pay something better to be able to use skype and google voice and watch some videos and films now and then. If I was single, I would keep the cheaper option.

    Minimum wage is currently R$545/month in Brazil. In 2012, it will be R$622/month.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. George the original one

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,941

    Food is essential and I know you're targeting it in the budget, so I doubt more focus will help you there. That leaves electricity as the next largest expense... what does it do for you and can you find any places to trim usage? And, if Brazilian electric bills are similar to American ones (at low usage levels the connection fees & taxes are the predominant costs), does trimming usage actually provide any real relief?

    I'm also asking about your electric useage because I'm curious how it might be different from Americans. Heating, air conditioning, and refrigeration are the bulk of our useage, then followed by television, computers, lighting, cooking, and other trivia. Heating and cooking might be handled by using other fuels; a lot depends on what's locally available.

    I really like how you're getting the expenses below Brazilian minimum wage. Is that for you alone or does it include your wife?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Hi, George,

    Food needs some better tracking on the spending. I'm probably overlooking some things, like shoyu and misso made the traditional way, that I buy in bulk. So probably I'm over minimum wage, but I'm close. Yes, that includes me, the wife and the pets.

    One of the main points to be improved in next year is, absolutely NO EATING OUT. I've been talking to wife about it all the year, and we are improving on it. We still fail sometimes as we have some place to go or someone to see, and in the last moment we see that we have no lunch packed for the situation. I told her, if it happens next year, we will stay at home and make the food. It won't matter if we won't be able to go to the social meeting. I believe that we will quickly get in the habit of planning in advance the food consumption of the next days, specially weekends.

    I don't know if I will be able to lower the rice budget. I could stick to a lower quality one, but we really feel the difference in flavor and I suspect that it also has a difference in nutrition. As it is our main staple, maybe it will stay the way it is until I quit the job and have time to maybe growing it myself.

    The electric bill is mainly the shower, the computer and the refrigerator. The other eletrical appliances are the cellphones and kindle chargers and the ilumination itself. We don't use electricity for the cooking. The climate is nice enough that we need no AC and not heating. The shower could be converted to propane, but I doubt it will really save as we (mainly the wife) will have the tendency to use the maximum output of water possible, wasting water and propane. I'm still trying to convince her to use the shower in the "summer" setting (it is possible and we are in summer, you just need to lower the water output so the water gets hotter). The computer, maybe when I buy a new one, I could substitute for a notebook, I'm not sure. The refrigerator is already a small one (120 liters) and as we are going to eat everything made at home, it is not being enough for us anymore. We are buying a bigger one this year, one that spends a little more on electricity. The ilumination is already quite economic (better
    than what we have, only if I get led bulbs for a decent price). It seems that to lower it I need a notebook and change the shower water heating system to propane or solar or a combination. The shower will wait as it takes time. The notebook I probably won't buy soon as the computer is working well enough for now. Maybe I try getting back to cold showers or navy showers...

    We have mostly no fixed costs on electric bill here. If I lower it enough, I will start receiving only one bill every two months or so. The water, on the other side, I can't avoid paying the minimum that is around R$24/month, even if I don't use water at all. You can see that we are very close to the minimum already. So trimming on the water doesn't change the financial aspect; trimming on the electricity, on the other side, would translate to money saved.

    Thanks for the observations.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. LiquidSapphire

    Master
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 434

    Hi bigato -
    I don't know what the difference is in cost of living in Brazil vs the US but it sounds like you are reaching a point in diminishing returns. It sounds like you have cut all of the superfluous stuff out and to cut even more would start to hurt. Life is meant to be enjoyed and not a sacrifice so I think you're doing fine as you are! I think you are doing great to be supporting two people, owning your own house, and your pets, on just minimum wage! Even if you go ERE and it doesn't work out for whatever reason, you would think it wouldn't be that hard to just go get another minimum wage job again for a little while to replenish savings.

    On the point of No Eating Out. Maybe you could buy some things at the store (Crackers, some kind of cheese spread that doesn't require refrigeration) and just keep them around for those times where you didn't have time to make a lunch, then at least you will have something ready to go when you want to go out and meet people. Cutting back on meeting with people because you don't have food ready to go seems a little sad to me, why not just have food ready to go all the time for those days? I know you are thinking that it is not as healthy as fresh food or the food you normally eat, you are right about that but life is full of trade offs, and it can't be that much worse than the food you would have gotten eating out. It might be a nicer way to transition to not eating out, maybe. Less harsh.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. J_

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 353

    Hi Bigato,
    Reading your Journal, I am impressed how well you and your wife have allready reached such a frugal way of life, and that you at a young age have already saved such a lot. As acratic says, there no much to improve, I think.
    As I have read a lot of your comments it is as if I know you for a rather long time, and I have seen the care you take to live healthy by knowing a lot about food and how to keep your body in shape.
    Sometimes I get the impression that you are a little bit frustrated by your bosses or that your wife has another feeling about being frugal. For the bosses: you can never be too carefull in choosing your boss!!, but you have seldom the choice.
    My wife has sometimes also other views but I am gratefull for that, I learn from her point of view that there are other possibilities, and very often my views are changing for the better!
    As FI is not the meaning of life but only a good start to be free to choose how to live as you want, I wonder what you dreams are, the moment you quit your job. Hope to hear from you.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Thanks LS.

    I'm sure I'm around the point of diminishing returns on the process of reducing the expenses. I always prefered to focus on reducing expenses as much as I could, instead of trying to improve income, because it has a exponential effect in reducing the time to ERE. But now even that changed, and I'm thinking about side incomes next year. Like the idea to start charging something on the jiu jitsu classes, even if I still allow some people to go to the classes without paying anything.

    I thought that once I get over 80 or 85%+, it would make no more sense to keep thinking about lowering expenses. But the thing gets in your system, and talking to you all everyday, I just can't stop thinking about ways to save additional money. Of course it is not my main focus anymore. But there ARE things to be improved and it will take not much effort to improve them. I get such a high savings rate (remembering that I still spend outside my "ideal" budget above), not so much because I'm frugal, but also because I have a somewhat high income for Brazil and even higher for the standards of the region I live in. It's not being a sacrifice. There are some poor people around here supporting a family bigger than mine on minimum wage or less, and being more frugal than I: growing as much food as their backyards allow, raising some chicken. That's one nice consequence of choosing to live in a poor place. You have some really good examples to learn with.

    I agree with the idea of having some food ready to go. We are doing it to some extent. We could buy some crackers, some whole wheat bread, and some things to spread over. But instead, my wife makes some very good bread with wheat and brown rice (a quality we won't find anywhere near here), sometimes she makes some crackers from whole wheat. She makes some kinds of tofu cheese of some flavors, for us to use instead of butter or something. She makes tahine (a kind of sesame butter) out of sesame seed, using a hand-powered mill. It tastes very good with misso and lemon. And there are other less-known lunchs we make. She makes tofu out of soybeans (we have no place to buy tofu here in my city even if we want). She makes my lunch early in the morning so I can take it fresh to my job. When there are that days when she misses the ring of the alarm, or forget to set up the alarm, there are some quicker foods that we can make. We have white rice (quicker to cook) that we use in the pets food preparation, but that we
    can use in emergencies. We always have some whole wheat pasta, that's a quick dish to make. Some cans with corn, others with green peas, and some cans of tuna. Most of the time we have around some eggs from free-roaming chickens. That's our emergency dishes and they work quite well. She is still failing sometimes on planning on having the quicker foods available, like the bread, crackers and some other lunchs we make from brown rice. Overall we are doing very well, and it will take very little to go from our present situation to not eating out at all. We just need some planning. That thing about missing some social meetings everytime we don't have food ready, is more of a motivational thing. It will happen only once or twice in a long while that we are really gonna miss to meet people. But as it happens, we will take care much more closely of the planning in the future. It's not that hard, it's not sacrifice. Not long ago, there were not all those places for people to eat out. It would just natural to pack a
    lunch everytime. It is not impossible and not even hard to do it again. We just need a good strategy to get the habit again. Once you are conditioned to do something, once you have a habit strong enough, it's just not a sacrifice anymore.

    Also, the not eating out part is not as much a economic decision as it is a health decision. We are struggling on it since we met, and we are making progress. I know that I can't control 100% of what we eat, I know that sometimes I will really decide to eat out of home, like when someone invites me to a dinner or something. I agree with you that it's not what you do one day that will change everything. It rather the average of your way of life that will shape your health. As I know that I can't avoid some lack of control unless I'm planning to live in a cave, then I'm gonna control better the part that I can control, so I can have room to spare. It's like oversaving money so that even when something completely unexpected happens, it doesn't change the course of your finances. The philosophy is the same. Also remembering that even when you loose control, you still have some degree of choice. When eating at a friend's house, I still don't need to eat everything at hand, and most of the time I can choose what
    and
    how much I will eat. For example, most people are quite used to having some friends that just don't drink alcohol.

    I also splurge both on food and on finances. It's only that I prefer to have it under better control as much as possible. I prefer to have a huge dinner made at home, even inviting some friends over, even eating things I shouldn't eat often, then going to eat out. But there is a large difference in doing it because you chose to and doing it because your emotions are telling you to. Loosing control sometimes is part of life; but if everytime you "splurge" you see that it is because you have lost control, and not because of a rational decision, then that's a problem. You should listen to the heart, but the head should be above the heart.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Hey J_ thanks, I feel touched by your comment. I will write a proper answer to it probably tomorrow. :-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Hi J_,

    We didn't reached a frugal way of life in only one year. I have a quite long background on simple living. I just didn't have a plan good enough before discovering ERE. We also didn't have so much saved. My money could buy here in Brazil, say, a new corolla in cash. Or, around 50.000 kilograms of white rice. Translate it to your currency and you can have an Idea of how much it is. It's something, but that's not really such a lot. From the financial viewpoint, there's really not much else to improve, as reductions in expenses now will have a small impact on savings rate and on net worth. But... it's like a game you don't wanna stop to play. I still dream with the day I will use very little electricity and be able to produce it in my homestead. I wonder how will I feel when I have the hability to produce all of the food we need. I dream of having time enough and learning the skills to build an adobe house out of mainly plain earth. Financial Independence is one thing, but Independence of Finances... that's
    another animal. I don't know how long I will keep with this focus. Probably this feeling will be stronger while I still need a job. You are right, I hate my bosses. But mainly, I hate the consumerism system. It is the root of most of our problems and most of us just don't see it. I want to live a better life, not slightly better, but deeply better. I want to set an example for my future children. I don't want to get back to a way of life of the past, I rather want to get over the current way of life to the next step in evolution of society.

    Yes, my wife sometimes complain about being too much frugal. But it's more of a emotional reaction, resulting from not wanting to change habits or not wanting to put some extra effort on something. Everytime we talk about it, she ends up agreeing about what kind of lifestyle we want for ourselves. But she is more emotional and I'm more rational. I also learn a lot from her points of view. It's nice to live with someone different so we can learn from each other.

    After FI I want to dedicate some time to improving my martial arts skills, building, gardening and carpentry skills, healthy and diet practical knowledge, and all the philosophy behind life. I want to be active on spreading the word about a better way of life. I want to talk to people that want to listen. I would like to join a community of like minded people living with less dependence of the consumerist and technological system. I may either join some friends that have a similar idea or start finding interested people around the place where I am.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Surio

    Sorcerer
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 601

    @bigato,
    Got to rush, so here's my brief thoughts.

    1. The journal really resonated. The cultural similarities in thinking and lifestyle really resonated.

    2.
    > One of the main points to be improved in next year is,
    > absolutely NO EATING OUT.
    I also have a martial arts background, and I also understand the cultural outlook that prompts such strong stands. So, I simply say, "Go bigato!"! It is a great move.

    Discipline towards every aspect of life must become as natural as the act of breathing. No thinking, no straining, no worrying about silly things as "Am I breathing enough to make it enjoyable?", etc. Just breathe, and stop worrying about external factors.

    So from one martial arts practitioner to another: "Go brother, go".

    > Yes, my wife sometimes complain about being too much frugal
    This behaviour used to see-saw in our household... Sometimes it is me who is wondering if we are shaving away at nothing, and sometimes it was DW.... Oh well, it has died out largely.

    Hmm, now that we have a non-US developing world journal, should I also start one?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. LonerMatt

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 168

    @ Surio

    Of course you should start one. Mine's coming in the new year as well, time for us internationals to get on board.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Sure Surio, you should! You must! Start it! We'll enjoy it!!!

    Thanks for the thougts. I specially liked the breathing comparison. Some things are really not hard to do or to stop to do. The main problem is just that we have a different habit because of society helped to shape us that way. It's not like it's gonna hurt to change. It's not special. It can be done, it will bring benefits, it will even make us more comfortable in the end, so why not? Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. palmera

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    @surio YES start a journal, please :)

    I'm starting one...first post is early Feb 2012. Yay!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. J_

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 353

    @Bigato:Thank you for the generous answer: the long term dreams of you have become quite clear. I think it is for many of us a good thing to formulate for themself the goals in life. I share these goals with you.
    as an aside:
    Perhaps it only a word thing but don't you think that by hating your bosses or by hating the consumerism lifestyle you put negative forces in your mind? Which tap your power? Perhaps your bosses do stupid things and consumerism is a unsustanable way of life. To your boss you can speak out, that will give you relief. For a another lifestyle you set yourself allready an exempel. As you do/see it these way it will give you a positive force, as you will be more happy in your job and in life.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    I dunno. Shouldn't we try to reach for what we want, and get out from what we don't? You may get motivation both from seeking pleasure and from escaping from pain. Both at the same time will work better than only one. Pain alone is frequently a powerful motivator too. About talking to them, don't you believe some people are beyond hope? I do believe it sometimes. Maybe I'm too pessimist? It's also that I don't care about them and don't believe that talking to them will make my life at the job better, unfortunately. Have you ever lived receiving orders from a bully? They can be wonderful at times and will happily agree to talk and understand your reasons. But at the slightest error you make, in a day they are not feeling good, they will humiliate you. Like shouting at you in your ear. Or they can humiliate you being extremely polite (that's even worse). Your face gets read and you feel the blood burning in your head. The kind of thing that makes you sincerely want to hit a person until he looses
    consciousness. Then wait for him to wake up just to keep going again. It doesn't feel good. But don't worry, I'm allright now. I'm recording them and just waiting for something to happen again. A coworker even offered to tell what he saw and heard in court. Now I feel like the recorder in my pocket is like a shield. I work the best that I can, and have no more fear. In fact sometimes I'm excited that it could happen again. I don't wanna go to the trouble to deal with these kind of legal aspects now, but I would gladly do it once I'm FI, even while still working in the place.

    But I think I understand what you mean. Sometimes I'm worried to be changing and becoming a worse person. But I'm really learning to keep posture no matter what and shield myself.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. J_

    Master
    Joined: Nov '11
    Posts: 353

    Bigato: "sometimes I'm worried to be changing and becoming a worse person". That's a grave remark!

    Twice I worked in a situation more or less the same as you. First time I found another job, second time I started to work for my own, two important steps, I struggled before I took them. In both situations I left well paid jobs and changed them for less paid and uncertain futures.
    But what a relief and the results: the steps backwards let to leaps forwards, making more than good the initial financial loss, and more important, I gained trust in myself. And as you know I reached rather "early" financial independence.

    Everybody is different, perhaps is keeping posture for you a good solution, but from the way you tell about your job-circumstances which exists allready for a longer period, I advise you to consider a soon way out.
    BTW I wish you your best in 2012!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    J_,

    It's not everyday like that. The shouting in the ear happened only once in two years, from one of the bosses that is a nice hardworking guy most of the time. The polite pressure happens more often, from other boss that is a woman. While I say the other guy is a overall nice person, I can't say it about her. She uses a lot of soft bullying strategies to try to push us forward, lot of them just doesn't work with me and really don't bother me anymore. Sometimes we go one week or two without any problems. Over time it's not getting worse. She's new at a boss position, probably she's insecure of being a woman and not being respected because of that. There's also rumor that she should be leaving in 2012 for going to another branch of the bank. It happens very often in the company, usually they stay around two years in a place and then go to another one, and she is completing two years now. There is also a program in the company that allows me to change to any other place inside the same company where they are
    needing someone (it does not work for the higher paying positions, only for the basic wage positions). No questions asked, the only restriction is that I can do it only once each two years. I could do it now. I just fill my name in the system, and in two weeks I may be moving. If things gets too bad, there's always that possibility. But I like the city and maybe I really stay here after retirement.

    I could also start a internal process in the company by calling HR and telling what we experience. Or at this point of my savings, I could go to court. Off course in the two cases I would be better by having some concrete proof. That's where I am.

    There is another city not so far from here, another great place in the countryside, that I don't went to see yet, but where some friends live. They are in the process of starting a kind of community of like minded people. They are all Tomio Kikuchi pupils. All of them want to live in the countryside, producing as much of our food as we can, living as frugal as we can, doing carpentry, training martial arts, taking care of our health ourselves, having children at home and not at the hospitals. A couple of them is already living there since around 30 years ago, and have had their children at home. They even grow their own rice (I don't know if they are still doing it, but they did it in the past and have experience in that. But some things really need more people to help). If I decide to go live there, I could move inside the company to a nearby city. Prices of land in my area are climbing and seems to be already higher than there. I will go see that place next month, and maybe I take a decision to move there.
    Maybe not. I'm not sure. There are also a family of very dear friends from europe, also people with this kind of lifestyle, that will come in January to Brazil to research a place for them to stay. And another close friend of mine that wants badly to get out of Sao Paulo and live simpler. I hope we can all settle in the same place.

    I also heard about a study in the company about telecommuting. Now, that could change everything. I left the IT are, where I was in a field that I really liked, to become a seller in a branch of the bank, because I couldn't stand keep living in a big city like Sao Paulo. Changing careers inside the same company allowed me that, so I wouldn't need to stay in Sao Paulo or to move to another major city. Buuut... With telecommuting, it could change everything. I could even work some more years, and live a kind of dream life with a dream job and be happy. I would even get a higher paying position. Yesterday I just discovered details and emailed the guys that started the study to find out how things are going. By the way, right now... I have an email in my inbox. I'm gonna read it now.

    I could leave, too, as you suggested. But it is such a high paying job, that already allows me to live in such nice places, and I'm sooo close...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Well, not big news in the email. They are still facing some troubles in establishing telecommuting in the company. They guy said that if I know linux, they could send me some jobs to me even in the present situation, but them I get to still keep under my bosses and just will have more work. Even if I get paid for it... Well, I'm gonna write back saying that I'm willing to help them on the study about telecommuting if they want. Not very exciting news, anyway.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. Riggerjack

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 157

    well, it sounds like an exciting opportunity. USING linux is fairly easy, SUPPORTING linux takes far more knowledge than i have. plenty of places to download it for free to play with.

    as to the hostile bosses, been there, done that. the best solution i found was learning how to say no in a nonconfrontational way. it was truly foreign to my nature. to me, if i was told to do something and said no, then it escalated to a battle of wills or fists all thru my life.

    then i watched a coworker (sean) do it right.

    "no." with a laugh, like it was an unreasonable request. of course it was, or he wouldn't be saying no. this caused the boss to raise is voice and go confrontational. sean just looked at him like he was a little crazy, go even more calmly explain why not. it's important to not be sarcastic or address him like he's a child. at this point, the boss can escalate, clearly loosing self control, or back down. either way was a victory for sean. now that didn't make the boss want to promote sean, but it allowed sean to do his job well, not make the unreasonable sacrifices, and eventually transfer elsewhere.

    when i asked him about this, he laughed and said it's just a job. i can get another one anywhere. i do it well, and if the boss wants to replace me, fine. i can get another anytime i like.

    and that was one of the big differences between sean and i. we were both good at what we did, but for sean, being a tech was a paycheck, and no more, and for me it was tied into my self worth. who i was, and how i related to the world around me was dependent on what i did, and how well. this gave the boss too many leverage points to manipulate me.

    i found i was much happier transferring to a different dept, and taking a job i don't care nearly so much about.

    and having my wife help me keep that perspective helps, too.

    good luck.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    Hey guys, things are hard to me in the job these days. They say I don't sell things. I really don't sell much. There are tons of work there without the need to sell, but they want me to sell, and they are right. We have a system of evaluation of workers every six months and today i just read what my boss have wrote about me. He also wrote that I don't know to deal with people, that there is constant complaints from clients. That's not true! There was complaints from clients but it is not all the time, and most people really like me, I try to be as polite as I can! Shit, I'm feeling down and having doubts if I will ever be able to keep there this at least this year and the next one. I should keep there.

    Some days ago the same boss shouted to me and to another guy because of an error we did. It was nothing special, a simple error that had no further consequences. I still was not recording everything as I do now. A coworker said that he will tell what he saw if I want to go to the court. But I don't know, I don't want to go to such trouble. But now there is that annotations the boss did about me, that weren't true, I wonder if they are trying to prepare something to me.

    It's not easy to be fired in this job. Specially in my case, since I have 10 years in the same company, law will protect me and I can only be fired if there are very good reasons, like me stealing something or being really really bad at the job I should do. Even then, they will try to move me to another position in the company to do another kind of job. In fact that was what I should probably have done, go to the IT, or never leave IT as I did. I could be getting 80% more money. The thing is, I couldn't live in Sao Paulo anymore, I needed to breathe clean air, see some woods, and I didn't know about ERE. If at least I knew that I could be free in little time. But I had no hope of a better life there, so I did the jump and asked to work at a local branch of the bank. Now I should be a seller and sell shit to people. I'm not good at it.

    I'm not also willing to get back to Sao Paulo, but I don't even know if I could be able to, because of the things the bosses are writing in the system about me. That may be trouble to me. I may not be able even to get the position in telecommuting, when it really become available. But maybe I should talk to the friends I have in IT to see if there is possibility. I can do almost anything in IT. Well, the problems are always the politics. But also, I have a house here, I would need to sell it very cheap (as cheap as I paid for it) and start paying rent again. That doesn't seem like a very good move to me.

    An uncle of mine is a professional carpenter and has employees, and is always looking for good workers. I could learn and work with him. The problem is I would get around five time less money, save not much more than 50%, and work more than know. There is also a friend of mine that gets money from growing organic vegetables and has a hard time finding good workers. Not much money, too. Jiu jitsu is still not giving me money. Money from investments give me less than half my expenses currently. But sometimes I cry when I go to work, sometimes I cry at the bathroom there before even starting the day. I usually don't cry while going home because there is the jiu jitsu after the work and that makes me feel much better. Wife is supporting any decision I take on this, and she is willing to help. But I should really be tough just till the end of 2013.

    I should stay there until they put me out, if they ever do it. But it does not feel good to know that you are not doing the job they want, that you don't like the job, the place, the bosses, the shit you sell.

    Hey guys, couldn't any of you help me find a good telecommuting position at programming or anything IT? Linux maybe? I can be really good at this. I started programming at 8 years old, and I'm 30 now. As a teenager, I used to do z80 assembly for fun, while my friends were out there playing soccer...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. m741

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 733

    Sorry you're having such a tough time. Are there any IT jobs in your current town? What would your commute to Sao Paulo be? Is there any severance if you get kicked out of the company?

    If you suspect that they are going to try to fire you, I would take a few actions. First, I would take their advice in the review at face value. Really do try to improve your ability to sell things. Make changes, and discuss them with your co-workers. There is a possibility that you have a blind spot in your performance. Plus, it looks like you are putting forward a good-faith effort.

    Second, I would start to record everything. Keeping good records is important - you could write down what you did in a given day and also if your supervisor said anything that they shouldn't have. You could get co-workers to corroborate what you say, and in the worst case if your supervisor is saying something rude/aggressive towards you, you could make voice recordings. You could also elicit feedback and keep contact numbers from customers/clients to build up a list of people who were happy with your work. It's quite a bit of effort, but if you want to keep your job, or feel more comfortable about your situation, it might make a difference. You could also try talking to a lawyer, for an hour consultation - or maybe you know someone who is a lawyer and could give you some advice.

    Assuming all your suspicions are correct, then your supervisor is trying to build evidence for a case against you over time. So keeping a counter-record is important, as is putting forth a good-faith effort that your co-workers can see.

    Personally I would continue to work at your current position for as long as possible (you said end of 2013 is target retirement - you could make it a firm deadline instead). Knowing that there is an end in sight makes a huge psychological difference. In the meantime, I would be cautious and I would try putting out feelers for jobs in your current location. Maybe one of your Jiu Jitsu students is in IT? Maybe the father of one of the kids you teach knows somewhere you could work? Just casually discussing it with people could open some doors.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. C40

    Master
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 573

    Wow Bigato, sounds like some rough times. Two years of being this miserable at a job will wear you down even more than it already has.

    Have you been looking into jobs with other companies as well? Might it be good to have one of those carpentry or farming jobs sort of lined up as a backup plan (since they are ran by people you know, it might not be hard to speak to them about it - to say "hey, I'm really not enjoying my current job.. if I decide to bail or get fired, could I work for you?". Having that option might make the days at your current job easier.. Sort of like having "fuck you" money makes it much easier to laugh off the bullshit. Maybe getting job offers for IT work from other companies could work as leverage to get the IT role or telecommuting position you want with your current employer?

    Don't give up on being happy. Have a positive outlook. Consider your options and pursue them aggressively. Don't give up when they don't work out - you only need one good job offer or internal transfer opportunity for things to improve significantly.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. LiquidSapphire

    Master
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 434

    Hi bigato -
    Sorry to hear you are having a hard time. Seems a few of us are lately.
    I don't know if it is the same or not but my ex boyfriend used to work at a bank and it was the same thing, a LOT of sales pressure. You had to ask everyone who came in if they wanted a credit card, a loan, a mortgage. This bank was inside a grocery store, so they made you walk around and ask people if they wanted to sign up for stuff. He didn't sell very much and they did end up firing him for sort of a silly reason. But he did not have the worker protections you have.
    It sounds, based on other posts you made, like your boss personally does not like you. Perhaps they would welcome a transfer for you. Do you think, if they knew you wanted to transfer out and away from them, they would help or hurt you? Helping you would get you out from under their team and they could replace you with someone they liked, so that would be win win... or they might hurt your chances just to be assholes. Only you can really make the best guess here but worth thinking about. If you think they might help you, maybe you should just mention about how you want a "change" and might like to go back to "IT"... they may lay off of you if they think you're leaving soon, might even help you leave sooner!

    OK my first bit of advice is try to keep your nose clean if you think they are building a case against you, especially since you say it would have to be pretty strong for them to fire you. You admit you don't sell things well and you admit that there were some complaints against you. Maybe make it your personal mission to try to have no one complain against you ever ever again. Everyone gets a smile, no matter what. If some guy is being a jerk, just tell them you will get your manager, and let them deal with it (Maybe?) It's better than getting complaints, after all. They can't say you were rude, just say you don't have the power to help them, maybe the manager can make a different decision. Then you're helping them by getting them in contact with someone that might be able to give them what they want. Maybe go to your boss and ask for sales tips or pointers or ideas. What are some easy ways they can come up with to sell more? I know it will be hard to do and swallow but it will make them feel good about themselves, and hey maybe they will actually have something valuable to say. They might like you more just for asking.

    I think you should stick it out the best you can because your other options don't sound like a good tradeoff, much less money, still not something you'd enjoy much, unless you can find an IT job somewhere else. I know what you mean though about being in a job you hate, that you have no passion for, all of that. It helps to just not think about it, at all, once you leave. I refuse to check my work email, at all, except during office hours. It can take just one email to ruin my entire weekend. Fuck that, they get 40 hours and that is ALL. I have been trying to work toward other things and goals in my off time, things I would do after ER, to keep me busy. Maybe that will help you.

    What about starting your own IT business? Like the local computer repair guy, you can build custom computers, de-junk other new computers (get rid of all the yucky software that people end up with on their systems) and you can maybe design some websites for some small businesses. You could do it on the side, and maybe even get some references from some of your Sao Paulo friends.

    Hang in there bigato - 2 years in the grand scheme of things is not that long, you have been there 10 years already! If you want to stick it out I believe you can do it. If it helps, I like to remind myself that the only constant is change; it can't stay like this the next two years, something will change, hopefully for the better.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. pooablo

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 189

    Hi Bigato,

    I hope things get better for you and remember your health is most important. This might mean working at another job that you like for 5 more years than the current one that you dislike for 2 more years. On the other hand, you could do what I am doing and take a sabbatical for a year. After the year, you could go back to working for the 2 more years. A break might give you more energy again to handle another 2 years of sales.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. Spartan_Warrior

    Master
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 502

    I can empathize with a lot of your post. Work sucks enough when your boss likes you, let alone if they have it in for you. In that regard I'm better off in my current position than I was at my last job, but regardless I still have "those days" sometimes when the daily grind gets the better of me. I don't know what to say except to second LS on this:

    "It helps to just not think about it, at all, once you leave. I refuse to check my work email, at all, except during office hours. It can take just one email to ruin my entire weekend. Fuck that, they get 40 hours and that is ALL."

    Seconded.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. bigato

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 920

    2012, January 25n

    Thanks guys for all the support and advice. These last times have made me think more about some options and take some decisions.

    I'm studying the options and even considering the possibility to quit and get another job. The thing is, after 11 years and some promotions on the way, the composed effect on your wage is not something easy to ignore. I even had one friend from the forums offering to help me to try to enter his company, where telecommuting is a common thing. That is one option I should really take a look at, but probably not at this moment. My wage would be probably around half what I receive now, in the beginning. I don't want to take that step back financially. Not before I'm FI, as it would mean being tied to a job some more years. I even came to know about a person that is currently at the bank I work in, trying to get to the IT department; and that person worked at the other big company where the friend here in the forums offered to help me to enter in. He said me he worked there for 6 years programming java (something i could do), and came to the bank I'm in for two reasons, one of them being the money. A junior
    beginning at the IT department of this bank is earning around the same as a senior guy in that other company. The other reason he had is not relevant to my situation (he wanted to be closer to another specific city). The thing is, this company and my company are probably the two best places in the country for somebody with my knowledge in IT to work in. And because people with more than 10 years in the same company have a stability guaranteed by law here, and because the wage is higher after some years, I decided that for now it makes more sense financially to try to keep inside the company. Much thanks for the friend that offered help. Changing companies may be great for telecommuting's sake, but it's not financially wise now.

    But still, I'm in hell. Some days i feel slightly better. You guys are right when you tell I should make some sincere effort on trying to do the job. Well, I can do an effort, but I can't make it be reallly sincere. At least I can do some effort and can show my effort. You are right. But I'm really in the wrong place. And yet, the pay is so good. I learned a lot and enjoyed coming to live in the country again; but I also could be earning more, saving more, and even liking my job if I had stayed in Sao Paulo at the IT department. If at least I knew about ERE before.

    So I decided to put my name in the system to apply for jobs at IT at either Sao Paulo or Brasilia. There is not a lot of chances that I get called now, because my name is last in most lists because I don't have a degree. From time to time, there is some big selection for IT in a trainee system where I could easily enter. The last one (also was the first one) was last year exactly inside my vacations, so I didn't even have the chance to apply. Another way I could have some chance to enter would be to explore all my old contacts and the contacts of the contacts in search of someone with the power to put me where I want. There is probably someone that could do it, but I don't like this way and will keep it as one of the last options.

    And time is on my side. Each day I keep at the same position, I'm closer to my goals. When time is not against you, keeping the position is success. I developed some tricks to keep me going. I calculated how much I earn a day (good money), and every day before going to work I remember myself, I'm going there to earn X. If I only stay until the end of the day, I will earn that. There is also a game that prisioners play, of writing the days at the walls of their prision, so they don't
    loose track of time. I have a calendar that shows a whole year in a small page. Everyday when I arrive, I put a mark over the previous day. One year is not so much time when you look at the days written in small fonts. I also know that if I spend over the budget, I postpone the date of my retirement.

    I'm also watching some short-term intermediate goals. For example, right now my net worth is about to get past half of what I need. By the end of february, I should have more than 50%. In this moment I would need 10.1% of return over my investments for my current net worth to sustain my current expenses. Hard, but not impossible anymore.

    I have also a hypotetical situation of lowering every spending some more, a scenario I call my hardcore ere more. I would have to cover half of the cost of my vegetables by growing them, would need to buy cheaper whole rice (or pay someone local to grow it for me), would need to install a solar water heating system for dw (as she wouldn't take cold showers), simplify my higyene spending to half its current price (doable with more homemaking), get back to hacked cellphone for internet browsing, build an earth wood stove and cook part of the food with it (I have access to free wood from the woods behind my lot). Then my monthly spending would be down to R$314 a month. To cover that with current net worth I would need 5.89% of yearly returns over inflation. By the middle of april, I should be able to cover that level of expenses with 5% yearly interest over inflation. By july, it
    will be 4%.

    After that, next step will be watch as I reach the point where my current level of expenses (not hardcore) will be sustained by my networth earning 7% yearly interest over inflation. That should happen around august. This 7% number is what MMM uses, because he also says that in the times when his investments will not reach this, the jobs he does for fun anyway will make up for it, allowing him to expect steadily 7%+ with safety. I will do jobs after FI, so why not?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. sky

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 196

    I used to be very unhappy in my job, but things have changed and I like it very much now.

    One thing that helped me during the time I did not like my job was to put a copy of my resume in my top desk drawer. On top of that, I put an undated, unsigned resignation letter.

    So I always knew if the job was more than I could take, I was one easy step away from freedom (sign the resignation letter and walk out with a resume in my hand to look for a new job).

    This may be just a psychological trick, but it gave me a feeling of freedom and self control over my job.

    Just remember that bosses move from position to position and things change. I would stick with the higher income, but don't be afraid to do things that you need to do to be happy. Sometimes the hard part is identifying what will make you happy. Many times you will find that it is you yourself that has been holding yourself back from doing something to make yourself happy, based on false assumptions.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. LiquidSapphire

    Master
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 434

    Hey bigato-
    Thanks for the update. Four more people decided to leave my organization today, the turnover we are experiencing is unreal. 3 of the 4 were retirement eligible, so they have something to fall back on (although I am certain they would have liked to have stayed longer if the situation wasn't so terrible.) The fourth one is 3 years away from retirement eligibility and despite a 30 year career, she is actually quitting! She is resigning. She says over the past 2 years she has started to grind her teeth and lose her hair and her health is not worth it, and everyone around her is supportive of her decision. I'm really happy for her. It's inspiring to see people have the courage to leave.

    I'm not sure why you are hesitant to use your contact to get an IT placement but I would encourage you to do that. At least in the US that is not a shameful way to get a job, in fact it is the most successful way and people do it all the time. It's likely the fastest way to get to your new job; like you said, you are at the bottom of the list and it is going to likely take a long time otherwise.

    I think reducing your expenses even further is a good idea if you don't think it is much hardship; it will make you feel like you are making even more progress and bringing the date ever closer. It's amazing how much having low expenses makes life so much easier, look how fast just that would accelerate your ERE plans.

    You had some good ideas I am stealing. I am going to write the amount of $ earned per day on a sticky and put it on my monitor. Also, I am about 6 months away from having enough in Net Worth where a 7% real return would actually meet today's monthly expenses. I am totally OK with doing side jobs to make up the difference so... I still don't know if I'd have the guts to quit at that stage of the game but I suppose I should start lining up those side jobs :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. palmera

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    whoa, I am SO late to this thread.

    *hugs* bigato, hang in there...a lot of good advice in here.

    I'm going to go home now, have a glass of wine and give a proper response.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. Spartan_Warrior

    Master
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 502

    "There is also a game that prisioners play, of writing the days at the walls of their prision, so they don't loose track of time. I have a calendar that shows a whole year in a small page. Everyday when I arrive, I put a mark over the previous day."

    Thank you so much for this brilliant idea! I have the exact same type of payroll calendar on a single sheet. I've already highlighted the holidays in bright blue. This calendar hangs above my computer monitor and is in fact the only "decorative" item in the entire cubicle (really showing my co-workers where my priorities lie). Striking off the days as they pass will make it even more encouraging.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. m741

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 733

    I was considering the 'striking off the days' solution. But in the end I decided not to. I felt like I was striking away wasted days of my life that I would never regain, rather than days of some sentence I was serving until I got a reward. It just made me feel more depressed as each day went by that I wasn't happy.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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