Early Retirement Extreme Forums

Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Transportation Questions

1. 

   frankwolf
   

   Novice
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 14

   Dear all,

   although the topic has been covered in a couple of times in Jacobs blog as well as in some discussions I would like to seek your advice to pick 1-2 bicycles for commuting/groceries...

   I work 4 days a week and commute with my bicycle - at the moment 2x 6.2 miles. Due to moving to another place I will soon have to do 2x 12.8 miles a working day.
   Additionally I do train 2x2hrs a week in the evenings (martial arts) and I work about 1-1.5 days (full-time) in my garden (3000sqm where I harvest a whole lot of my veggies, beans, potatoes and hopefully soon eggs).

   I guess this will be definitely to much. For that reason I am considering to buy a pedelec (an e-bike that supports you as you pedal).
   Now I find that good pedelecs cost around 3000 dollar and do only support your pedeling to a speed of 15.5mph (some max 16.8mph) unless you pay even more and pay for an extra insurance (maybe EU-specific).
   Now I recon that I can save about 700 dollars for public transport. Effectively 500 dollar as I consider to pay another 200 dollar for repair parts. This means that such a bike will pay for itself after 6yrs.

   Even if this is financially far from optimal there are some advantages: if I buy a bike and co-finance it by not taking public transport I pay money for something I have. If I go by bike I will have more regular training - which will surely support my physical endurance supporting my fitness in martial arts as well as in the garden. But taking the ebike I would not be so very exhausted (which I suspect but do not now for sure, yet).

   And I think - although I am not totally sure about it - I will be faster on my ways on average. Although I can go faster than > 20mph with a regular road bike I will be supported on acceleration, on hills and when the wind blows (which is not so seldom where I live) - and can go certainly faster on flat areas.
   A drawback is that even pedelecs in the range of the named price (3000 dollars) weigh 45 lbs.

   An alternative is to take a road-bike (with the risk to overtrain and thus to pay for tickets again?).
   Another alternative would be to skip marital arts training (which I would not like to do).

   Do you have any experience and/or suggestions? What would you do? Buy a cheaper (=likely to be less reliable?) e-bike (say for 1800 dollar (only for commuting) and a touring/road bike for 1000 dollar that could also be used for grocerise)... Just take the public transportation and buy a cheap road bike and save at least occasionally?

   A last aspect: I cannot say that there is not at least a profane consumerist thinking involved best described by: I what that cool stuff now! (e.g. this one http://merida-bikes.com/de_ch/bike/2011/230/E-Bike/E-SPRESSO+10+EQ - sorry I could not find an English page showing the same).

   As you see there are quite a few things I have been thinking about... I am happy for your ideas/comments.

   Cheers,
   Frank

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. 

   bigato
   

   Expert
   Joined: Mar '11
   Posts: 1,025

   Hi Frank,

   Short answer: Don't buy that crap. Get yourself a cheap used scooter.

   If you have a good diet and are willing to wait 3 or 4 months to adapt, your body can probably get used to doing that by bike. I do two to three hours of heavy martial arts training (brazilian jiu jitsu) from monday to friday and commute 2x5 miles 6 times a week. It took me some months to get used to it, but now it is easy. If after these 4 months you see you still are too tired, then spend money. I would prefer the scooter.

   But do you realy HAVE to move?
   And what kind of martial arts do you practice?

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. 

   Britz
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 35

   Hi Frank,

   electric bikes can be really good but it depends on their purpose. They are really great for old or infirm people, or for people who cycle with a heavy trailer or other heavy loads, or if you have really steep hills or strong headwind or just want to arrive at work half as sweaty as otherwise.

   An electric bike will not, however, save you a whole lot of money, compared to public transport or even cars (if several people take the same car); this is due to the fairly hefty price of decent electric bikes, as you mention, but also due to more maintenance than normal bikes, and, especially, due to the price of batteries. I had a Wisper 905SE: lovely bike but the battery only lasted about 7500km and would have cost roughly $1000 to replace. I sold it instead and bought a second-hand good-quality normal bike, for $550. Money-wise, I only broke even with the Wisper, in terms of saved petrol and car insurance. Maintenance was a bit of a headache though, because electric bikes wear down faster than normal bikes, especially the spokes and axle of the wheel(s) bearing the motor(s), and problems were harder to fix than with normal bikes, and most bicycle repairmen refused to look at the bike, not being used to electric bikes and worrying about making mistakes (even when just replacing a spoke, for instance).

   The biggest benefit of my Wisper was that it trained me up to cycle to work and back, 53km roundtrip = 2x16 miles, and it helped get me back into shape. By the time I sold it, it was not hard to ride that distance on the (decent but not fancy) bikes that I now use, a MTX and a road bike, depending on the weather and how rough the road on my trip will be. It took a few months, half a year at most, before my body got completely used to the trip. I am now in ok shape (lost almost 30lbs since before the electric bike) and am actually saving a fair bit of money each week (~$45 in saved petrol alone). I am even saving time since going by car would actually take longer (each way by bike takes about 50-55min), due to morning and evening congestion, and lack of parking spaces close to work, and no longer stress about being late for work due to traffic accidents or similar delays.

   I cycle 3-5 times to work and back each week (depending on teaching schedules), here in car-dominated Sydney, and also cycle to indoor climbing once a week (adding either 16km = 10miles or 66km = 41miles, depending on work schedule), and also ride to local shops and go on a big weekly shopping 6.5km = 4miles away, filling up my big backpack), and also use the bike when visiting friends or going into town or to the beach, say, (both 25km = 15.5miles) away. All in all, taking the (non-electric) bike is now just a natural thing to do, just like it once seemed natural to take the motorbike (now sold) or the car (hardly used any more). Rather than feel tired, all this bike riding seems to give me a lot of energy, and I get to work feeling happy and almost bouncy :)

   So, to answer your question more concisely, I am fairly sure that your particular travel distances and activities would comfortably allow travel by (normal) bike. This would be less bother, and cheaper, than an electric bike, and would, once you have gotten used to it, give you energy rather than drain you. You could use an electric bike as a transitional device, as I ended up doing, but this might be more bother than necessary.

   One bit of important advice, whether you get an electric bike or a normal bike: don't cut corners but buy quality (and good batteries if electric). With those distances, prioritise reliability over speed, so as to avoid punctures and repairs. For instance, the fat and not-super-speedy tires on my MTX (Continental's Town and Country) have so far lasted 6000km = 3700miles and should last about half that again - and have never been punctured by anything less than nails.

   Anyway, a long-winded and rambling answer - but hopefully of some use!

   PS: I would not get a scooter :)

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. 

   Britz
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 35

   Oh yeah, I forgot to mention: get clip-less pedals; they save you lots of energy and allow you to use more muscle groups, so you don't get as tired or sore as otherwise. For short trips, there is not much need for these sort of pedals - but for longer trips, they really make a big difference!

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. 

   sky
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jan '11
   Posts: 196

   I used to bike commute 16km one way to university. This was with an old 3 speed dutch bike. It was not a problem from a point of view of physical difficulty, but it took a lot of time. A good rain cape kept me comfortable in wet weather, and the the exercise kept me warm in cold weather.

   I built an electric bicycle a few years ago. After about a year the batteries became weak and the range dropped. In order to get top performance I had to replace the batteries. The electric bike does not coast well when pedaling. It is very heavy. I have since removed the electric motor, controller and battery box and I like my bike much better as a pedal bike.

   I would recommend trying your commute on a good road bike before going electric.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. 

   A Brit
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Sep '10
   Posts: 38

   If you are already reasonably fit and are used to cycling, you'll adapt to that commute very quickly without recourse to an e-bike. An hour each way? No problem.

   E-bikes are great for introducing people to cycling. We used to have one - for towing a trailer with two children plus shopping up a large hill near our home. Overtaking a struggling roadie uphill used to make me chuckle.

   But, apart from these types of special circumstance I wouldn't bother with e-bikes. They're great fun but too expensive and high maintenance to be genuinely utilitarian.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. 

   rachels
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 156

   I'd vote for a road bike or, if you're worried about overtraining, a scooter or a small motorcycle. I can't imagine paying $3,000 for an electric bike rather than just buying a used motorcycle/moped.

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. 

   frankwolf
   

   Novice
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 14

   Thank you for your helpful advice. I think you are right. Electric bikes are too expensive (at least where I live) and they do not fulfill my needs in acceptable relation to its cost.
   I now consider what is called Cyclocross with a custom frame and a good derailleur gears from Campagnole (which has the advantage that they consist of more parts and do produce repair parts longer than e.g. Shimano) with fenders (it rains a lot here) but without rack (my old single-speed trekking bike has one) in the first place which I may add later. And I will skip any electric support. I borrowed a cross-bike yesterday an managed to go relatively relaxed with the maximum average speed that I reach with my single-speed (about 15mph).

   A question about clipless pedals: do you need special shoes for them?

   @bigato: Yeah, I have to move - its a matter of fairness that we (my an my gf) do. Now we share 270sqft (one room in a shared flat with another room mate) which is perfect from a financial point of view (200 dollars each) but its very unfair in terms of distances to work (now: 6.2miles for me, 20miles for her) and impractical considering our garden which is situated 10miles from where we live now and will be 2.5miles from where we will live when we will have moved. After moving we will have 500sqft (350 dollars each) - which is still pretty good considering that renting prices have been rising steeply here in the last 10yrs. For me the next step would be to move in a DIY straw-bale house - but this still requires some debating work with my gf :) - namely I will build such small building with friends somewhere and then show her how nice it can be :)
   As I consider my garden an investment (in the sense of the word) I would get a better return if I do not have such a long way to it (part of the cost). Last year I managed to harvest 50kg veggies and potatoes on 24sqm with an awful effort-return rate. But I guess I could do a lot better on a greater area and with the knowledge/experience I gained over the last year. As our new garden is a lot bigger and already has productive fruit and nut trees (about 80) I think I could manage to get a positive return rate this year by considering a moderate rate per hour (something like 15 dollars) - not only by saving money from self-produced food but also from sold food - especially honey, fruits, fruit-juice, apple-wine and eggs.

   I train Kung Fu (6yrs now). I am fit, but not so well trained than about one year ago, because of exams.

   As I understand you, Britz and bigato, you both cycle and train - so I guess I should be able to do it as well.

   As I have no car I only compare cost for transportation only fees for public transportation and I would rather like to avoid any petrol driven vehicle, like a scooter although I will consider it in my final financial calculation before I will decide what to do.

   Cheers

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. 

   A Brit
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Sep '10
   Posts: 38

   Cyclocross bikes make good commuters; especially in locales with grotty weather.

   Personally, I wouldn't be too bothered about clipless pedals - for utility cycling I've not found them to make a great deal of difference. More sport orientated cyclists swear by them, though. Yes you do need special shoes which, while not necessarily very expensive, are yet another pair of shoes to own. I also find that fitting clipless pedals limits you from just hopping on the bike to go somewhere. That said, I have one bike set up with pedals that have a clipless fitting on one side and a flat on the other.

   For day-in, day-out all weather commuting, I'd recommend the ultimate in non-sportiness: hub gears. Until recently I used to do a 2 x 10 mile commute on filthy roads and an 8 speed hub served me fine with zero maintenance or adjustment.

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. 

    McTrex
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 63

    @frankwolf,

    So could you say that 2kgs/sqm is a good rule of thumb for how much you could harvest from a vegetable garden?

    So for a family of three using the rule of 200 grams of vegetables per day would be : 3 * .2 * 365 = 219 kgs of vegatables per year. At 2 kgs/sqm this would require a vegetable garden of ~ 110 square meters?

    Or is this too easily said?

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. 

    frankwolf
    

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 14

    @McTrex: No, I think you an gather more. As I just started to learn about gardening - especially about practical soil improvement - I just learned that our soil was not in the best condition. Thus I think next years harvest could be better. Although I had only few pest problems (due to integrated pest control by arranged polycultures of plants and herbs) I lost about 10kg of cabbage - but maybe one has to consider some losses.

    Another point is you climate and altitude. I live in cool climate conditions which means that I have only one harvesting season. If you live in the tropics, subtropics or within arid conditions you will have more than one harvesting season - of cause arid would be harsh if you have not a pretty good soil and a well-functioning irrigations system.

    Anyway, I would say if you plan and implement a proper garden design 100sqm should suffice for your family - at least veggies - maybe even more (some beans and potates).

    Some time ago I saw an excellent interview with Michael and Julia Guerra who harvest 250kg on 75sqm (if I remember it correctly): http://www.theecologist.org/tv_and_radio/radio/278406/permaculture_food_growing_in_a_suburban_garden.html
    Ah, btw: they live in GB.

    I am going to start off on 3000sqm with some friends this year - but we definitely plan to sell/barter some of our excess produce (which already worked with apples this year).

    Good look with you endeavor and come back to me if you have questions that you think I may be able to answer :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. 

    frankwolf
    

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 14

    Thanks so far for your hints on bikes. After I thought I would fork over a sum like 1000$ or even more to a local bike retailer I was thinking again - and actually my amortization calculation does not work out right know and so I decided to look for a cheaper yet technically well-maintained used cyclocross bike for 500$ max.

    Since I have read about bike-ergonomics - I would like to ask you about your experiences. How important is the frame size, the top tube and stem length?

    How did you would you choose whats good for you?

    One advice I read about was that the frame size should be such that the its size should be about 2inc (5cm) smaller than ones standover. Thus for me that would be something like 21".

    Do you agree with that measure? What are your ideas about top tube and stem length (arm length? only dependent on how sporty one likes to go?)?
    How much do ideal ergonomic measures matter and how do you determined/would determine them?

    Thanks for your comments!

    best regards,
    Frank

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. 

    McTrex
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 63

    @Frankwolf,

    Thanks for the info and link. I'll be checking out the interview right now. I live in the Netherlands, so next door to them :) So their experiences should be more or less applicable here.

    The reason I was asking is we currently live in an apartment and are looking to buy a house with a garden big enough to sustain at least our vegetable consumption. So I'm trying to figure out how much we need.

    Thanks!
    McTrex

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. 

    grendel
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jan '12
    Posts: 33

    +1 for clipless on a long commute.

    so many other great and thoughtful ideas here.

    Posted 1 year ago #

RSS feed for this topic

Reply

You must log in to post.