Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Politics, and other eternal disagreements

Wealth Gap Between Young and Old Larger Than Ever

(39 posts)
  1. mikeBOS

    Master
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 554

    New census data apparently shows that the wealth gap (net worth) difference between people 65 and older and people 35 and under is the highest it has ever been in American history. - With a ratio of 47 to 1.

    Compared to 10 to 1 twenty-five years ago.

    "It makes us wonder whether the extraordinary amount of resources we spend on retirees and their health care should be at least partially reallocated to those who are hurting worse than them," said Harry Holzer, a labor economist and public policy professor at Georgetown University who called the magnitude of the wealth gap "striking."

    ...

    The 47-to-1 wealth gap between old and young is believed by demographers to be the highest ever, even predating government records.

    ...

    Sheldon Danziger, a University of Michigan public policy professor who specializes in poverty, noted skyrocketing college tuition costs, which come as many strapped state governments cut support for public universities. Federal spending on Pell Grants to low-income students has risen somewhat, but covers a diminishing share of the actual cost of attending college.

    "The elderly have a comprehensive safety net that most adults, especially young adults, lack," Danziger said.

    I wrote a while ago about the inherent bias in American fiscal policy towards supporting older people at the expense of the young.

    I saw this headline and just thought I'd throw some fuel on our fire of our discussion of the generations.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Dragline

    Master
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 959

    There was also an interesting article published by a researcher at the Boston Fed re income mobility, or the lack thereof in the most recent decades:

    http://www.bostonfed.org/economic/wp/wp2011/wp1110.pdf

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. baggywrinkle

    Novice
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 24

    Go west, young man. Pax Americana is a setting sun.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. chenda

    Master
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 370

    Perhaps largely a result of an increasingly ageing population, with a consequently greater electoral share.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. palmera

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    @mikeBOS excellent blog post. the whole thing sickens me. yet another reason for ERE.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. secretwealth

    Expert
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 1,505

    A simple solution: open the borders, let immigrants in--especially entrepreneurs, investors, etc.-- and increase the tax base. This will happen in America--it's just a matter of when.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. akratic

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 480

    The raw census numbers cited in that article are pretty interesting by themselves:

    median net worth of age 65 or older household: $170,494

    median net worth of age 35 or younger household: $3,662 (!)

    where net worth = value of home + savings + possessions (including cars, boats, etc!) - debt.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. Dragline

    Master
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 959

    I wonder what the distribution looks like. I have to believe that student loan and credit card debts lead to a lot of younger people with negative net worth.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. jennypenny

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    Posts: 1,338

    Most people (these days) have a large negative net worth the day they graduate because of student loans. I wonder how much that skews the data. I'd like to see the numbers minus student loans. Still bad though.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. ffj

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    I don't know if I trust those figures. Or if they are put in proper context. And all of this talk of stealing from the rich to give to the poor makes me very uneasy. Because one of these days we are going to be the old geezer with a (gasp) paid-off home and no student or credit card debt.

    Who's at fault for this disparity? It depends on who you talk to, but I can guarantee you this, nobody is pointing that finger at themselves. These articles irritate me solely because it validates everybodys victimhood. Not everybody that has had a successful life has done so at the expense of another.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. HSpencer

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 770

    I don't see how this is a comparison. We are talking here about a 30 year age gap. What can someone do in 30 years?
    You can certainly pay for a home. You can save and invest for 30 years. You can operate a successful business for 30 years.
    The point is 30 years of financial asset accumulation is a long time. It would be like a foot race. We will run 6 miles and this group will be spotted 3 miles. All being equal, which group would win? How can you compare someone aged 35, with someone aged 65? The older one has had a 30 year head start.
    Most people aged 35 don't just jump up financially equivalent to someone 65, that is abilities and circumstances being equal.
    I say the article is skewed. Who would expect someone with a 30 year head start not to be ahead? To make some kind of report out of this, one would need to factor in the differences in the time frame and make adjustments for "doing it then and now".

    @Firefighterjeff

    btw, having a paid off home and no student or cc debt is actually pretty nice! Thanks for reminding me of that!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. jennypenny

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    The gap will always exist. I think the article is trying to point out that the gap is widening beyond anything we've seen before. That's why I was curious about student loans. If most graduates start out $50k-$100K in the hole, whereas 20-30 years ago graduates started at zero, that could explain a lot of the growing disparity.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. HSpencer

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    Posts: 770

    @jennypenny

    Yes agreed the cost of the "piece of paper" is much out of reason these days as compared. The young start out with one hand tied behind their backs, and one foot in a bear trap. Earlier on, it was a little more doable in the student loan arena. So it should be decided how much the "piece of paper" will really do for you.
    What was not common earlier on was the young married couple with the $200,000 in student debt out looking at the $350,000 condo or townhouse to buy. Hence these are half a mil negative at signing. Few can stand for long those kinds of financial pressures. Marriage then fails and poverty makes it debut. When I was a kid we just worried about getting the girl "PG" and having to face her dad, marry her and work in a factory the rest of our lives. We didn't do the "high dollar" drill. But I am waxing nostalgic here.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. Debbie M

    Apprentice
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 55

    I was shocked at first and tried to figure out how the difference could have gotten so much bigger. But then I calculated the before numbers:

    Younger people: $5,385 then, 3,662 now.
    Older people: 120,066 then, 170,494 now.

    That looks like very little change for younger people and like not a big enough change for older people. Overall, I'd call these numbers good news--adults are saving more. Or maybe money in your pension fund doesn't count, but money in your 401K does.

    Another thing about younger people--they are less likely to need wealth than older people because they are more likely to be able to work and to get jobs.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. jennypenny

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    @Spencer--ROFL I wouldn't think worrying about knocking someone up was waxing nostalgic! I'll agree that a lot of 20-somethings [what is that generation called? I forget] shoot themselves in one foot by financing a name-brand education and then shoot themselves in the other foot by financing a magazine-shoot-ready lifestyle.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. mikeBOS

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    @jennypenny "a magazine-shoot-ready lifestyle" HA! I like that,

    @firefighterjeff "And all of this talk of stealing from the rich to give to the poor makes me very uneasy." Well you should feel quite at ease then, because the current situation is the opposite: taking from the poor to give to the rich. A 35 year old right now, despite having 47 times less wealth than a 65 year old, has to pay for his own health insurance, plus pay taxes that subsidize the 65 year old's free health insurance. The typical 65 year old also wants to repeal the affordable healthcare act that allows the 35 year old to get insurance to cover his pre-existing conditions. Yet the 65 year old's head will nearly pop off if you suggest he contribute something towards paying his own healthcare premiums despite the fact that he's 47 times wealthier than the younger guy who's subsidizing him.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. FrugalZen

    Journeyman
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    Posts: 270

    And 30 years ago very few people graduated with heavy student loan debt...most people paid for college in cash.

    And gee...what did we NOT have back then...lets see,

    Computers of the Personal Kind
    Cell Phones
    iPods
    iPads/Tablets
    DVD/VCR players
    Big screen TV's

    A LOT less in the way of Convenience Foods

    Personal Trainers

    Home Loans with No Money Down and Variable Rates

    Credit Cards given to you because you are Breathing

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. FrugalZen

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    OH! and one other big thing.

    30 odd years ago Banks, by law, were required to pay 5 1/2% interest on Savings Accounts and Savings and Loans had to pay 6% on even the smallest amount.

    Today a 6 month term Jumbo CD ($100,000) pays 0.10%...a COOL $100 a year income.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. Chad

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    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,000

    @firefighter
    Mike is right. The current situation is exactly opposite.

    "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning." - Warren Buffett

    The same can be said for older people. They have essentially been making war on their children, which they didn't have enough of to support the system they are trying to protect.

    "I don't know if I trust those figures. Or if they are put in proper context."

    Using a ratio is putting them in proper context.

    "These articles irritate me solely because it validates everybodys victimhood. Not everybody that has had a successful life has done so at the expense of another."

    And, not everyone who has had a "successful" life actually earned what they have. And, some times there are victims. Yes, younger people should be saving more, but that doesn't mean it's ok for the old or wealthy to rig the game, which they have. It is a logical fallacy to suggest that because some people play the victim that their aren't actual victims.

    This is the same attitude I find in the small town where I grew up. They are so worried about the poor people who don't "earn" their money. They are aghast that these poor lazy people are getting an extra couple thousand from the government, but completely blind to the .5% and older generation stacking the game against them. All you have to do is look at the numbers to know that the poor who use the system are a secondary problem, not the primary one. Both problems should be addressed, but I'm more worried about hundreds of billions in inequity than hundreds of millions. Or, I'm more worried about curing cancer than the common cold. Quit worrying about the sniffles and let's pay attention to the cancer. Once the cancer is gone, by all means let's focus on the cold.

    @Hspencer
    It is easy to compare a 35 year old to a 65 year old in this instance, as you have the ratio of wealth from two different time periods. It's the ratio we are comparing and the ratio suggests a problem.

    I know I'm not going to see Social Security as it is right now. I'm fine with that. However, I want your age group to also take at least a little hit, as your demographic has known this was coming for years and did nothing about it. I will take a big hit, but I want you and my parents generation to chip in a little.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. C40

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    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 573

    Using the 47 to 1 ratio does not make much sense when one of the values is so close to zero. A net worth of $3,600 might as well be zero, it's practically the same. It's one or two months of living expenses for most people. As that number approaches zero, the ratio goes to infinity, and we should be looking only at the gap in $.

    The average net worth numbers are striking. Both of them are far too low. For people at age 35, I'm guessing loans for oversized homes and new cars make up more of their debt than student loans. How much can we blame tax laws when we are all proof that the reason most 35 year olds have negative net worths is because of their own overconsumption. I do believe the taxes are too high and all that, but I think more of people's current situations depend on their own decisions.

    Another thing I'd add is that the 65 year olds with $170,000 already paid taxes when they earned the money over their careers. For many of them, much of those net worths are tied up in a house they own, and they have to pay continual property taxes.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. GandK

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '11
    Posts: 271

    @MikeBOS: Thanks for your blog post. You made a lot of good points.

    @firefighterjeff: I completely agree. Everybody's a victim today. Everybody's a victim of anything and everything EXCEPT their own bad behavior. If you admit that you didn't bother to gather all the facts before making a decision, that you failed to plan, that you valued immediate gratification over long-term gain, and that your problems are due - more than any other factor - to your own actions and ignorance... well, then there's no easy way out, is there? That means there's no one you can blame, sue, picket, and (ethically) tax to make your problems go away.

    Paradoxically, it's good news if you screwed things over yourself because it's proof that you have power in the situation. If I am to blame for my own financial problems, I am clearly also empowered to change them for the better. But it seems to me that there's an entire class of people in American society who seem hell-bent on ceding their power to others, apparently because they'd rather be taken care of than take responsibility.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Hoplite

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    Posts: 489

    The study gives figures for people 65 and older, not just 65. I wonder how much longevity affects the disparity, i.e., an increasingly delayed inheritance?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. ffj

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    Mike, Chad:

    I am not denying there are inequalities and that perhaps a redistribution might be in order. And Chad you bring up a valid point that as a percentage corporations and large voting blocks take more than all the welfare recipients combined. We agree on this.

    My beef is with what one does with this information. Compared to many other generations we have it pretty damn good. And if you think the American Dream is dead please don't look too hard at immigrant groups who have come into this country and have done very well for themselves. I don't get the impression they spent a whole lot of time agonizing over how they got the short end of the stick.

    We all have our tipping points where we draw our lines in the sand. I just don't think this particular data tells the complete tale.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. FrugalZen

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 270

    Certainly it doesn't tell the complete tale.

    One of the main differences is the explosion in consumer goods that everyone "has" to have.

    The older population is more immune to the siren call of a lot of the new very expensive techno stuff than the youngsters....must you have a new iPhone 4S or will a cheap Net10 (raises hand...kept in motorcycle for emergencies and used to make long distance calls...own the phone 7 years old and $15 a month) prepaid do what you need it to do.

    Cars for us oldies tend to be chosen for reliability not picked because the latest aftermarket Chrome Wheels will fit or it has the latest $3000 stereo set up.

    Another thing is that a lot of the net worth is tied up in a home....and remember the old person has spent 30 years building equity (most have anyway) or paid the house off completely and Second Mortgages and HELOC's were darn near impossible to get back then...younger people, courtesy of the banks, have treated the house like an ATM and have no equity.

    My parents and grandparents would NEVER have tapped the equity or refinanced and taken money out unless it was being used to improve the house itself...not using it for a European Vacation like I've seen some people do.

    It really boils down to ease with which people can borrow money...it was fairly difficult 30 years ago and so absurdly easy today.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. Chad

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,000

    @firefighter

    And, my beef is that a certain section of the population always gets sidetracked with this argument by the same people who are stealing/rigging the system and creating the bigger problem.

    @Frugalzen
    Consumber goods are only a very small part of the problem for most people. The house and the car(s) are still the biggest expenses. I think we get caught up too much in consomer items because of our viewpoint. If I bought a nice TV and iPad every single year it wouldn't be a very large percentage of my salary. It would still be a waste, but it would only be a very small part of the problem.

    "Cars for us oldies tend to be chosen for reliability not picked because the latest aftermarket Chrome Wheels will fit or it has the latest $3000 stereo set up."

    Yeah, the Beach Boys and countless other groups never sang about suped up cars. No one in the 50's or 60's tricked out their '57 chevys or Mustangs, and I never see old people driving around in giant new Cadillac. I don't disagree that cars are a financial issue. I do disagree that it is only this generations issue.

    What also needs to be factored in is that real wages have stagnated over the past 20-30 years, and now a two income household isn't a whole lot better off than a single income household was in the 60's-70's.

    Where we agree is that it is too easy to borrow money. A simple solution to this whole mess would be to pass a law requiring anyone who makes the loan to keep the loan. Then everyone would do the due diligence on the borrower. Also, require all investment banks to be partnerships. These two rules would solve a majority of the financial issues.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. ffj

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    Chad

    I totally get where you are coming from. Back when I was in college I had a very similar stance. Slightly different issues, but I would get angry on how some people always got a pass while others never caught a break. Every system if examined closely enough is riddled with inequities. This is a fact that I cannot change, but I can change how I respond to it.

    I would argue that the sooner everybody understands that life is inherently unfair, the sooner everybody can effect real change. Demanding that all banking systems reform themselves by camping out in front of financial institutions and waving signs isn't really going to do a whole lot. It might make you feel good, but I don't forsee any concrete victories for the protesters. By focusing so much attention on what is wrong, I feel one fails to see that which is right, and that has consequences which pale in comparison to the perceived wrong.

    This site with Jacob's direction and with tons of input by readers has proven over and over that a wealthy life is easily attainable. That should be the counter-argument to the wealth gap between young and old, not that we should force a wealth redistribution in the name of "fairness".

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. GandK

    Journeyman
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    ^^^ THAT.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. mikeBOS

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    Posts: 554

    @firefighter

    I would argue that the sooner everybody understands that life is inherently unfair, the sooner everybody can effect real change.

    Life's inherently unfair because some people are born better looking than others, or with greater talents, or into a better station due to their parents, or they got lucky at the right moment. Those things we can't change and we must accept the hand we're dealt.

    But when our public policies are unfair, I don't agree that we just have to accept that unfairness. Sure, most of your energy I think ought to be spent bettering your own life. But for many of us on the forum, we've already accomplished that. Even if you haven't, you still have to figure out who to vote for and what policies to be in favor of.

    So yeah, if your goal is to live a better life, you're probably better off getting a second job than you are lobbying congress. But if your goal is to make it easier for your fellow countryman to live a better life, well accepting unfairness as unfixable and putting your nose to the grind stone and insisting others do the same isn't going to fix the problem.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Chad

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    @firefighterjeff

    "This site with Jacob's...That should be the counter-argument to the wealth gap between young and old, not that we should force a wealth redistribution in the name of "fairness"."

    I completely disagree on a couple accounts, but you probably already knew that.

    No way Warren Buffett should be taxed at a lower rate than me. No way any executive at those banks should stil have a job or be paid like they are. Almost all CEO's are over paid. Almost all boards of directors are co-opted by the CEO and don't do their job. No way retirees should be getting the current social security payments, when we have known social security was in trouble for 20 years. No way retirees should be complaining about socialized healthcare when they eagerly accept it.

    Occuppy seems to be having some effect as people are talking about this more. Is that the final answer? Not even close. Is it full of idiots? Yes, but it's more than anyone else has done so far.

    Redistribution of wealth is not only appropriate, but necessary for the country to survive. Yes, life is unfair, but I don't see how that means we should just take it.

    "By focusing so much attention on what is wrong, I feel one fails to see that which is right, and that has consequences which pale in comparison to the perceived wrong."

    It's not a perceived wrong...it is a wrong. You can look at what we still do right all you want, but what is left isn't enough to sustain the American Dream. Just because immigrants can't see it doesn't prove anything.

    And, this is coming from someone who should support the status quoe. I'm a highly education professional consultant who will probably benefit from the wrongs some day.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. Dragline

    Master
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 959

    For some reason, the oft-mentioned but ultimately trivial statement that "life is unfair" always reminds me of the original Star Trek (from "The Doomsday Machine"):

    "Spock: Random chance seems to have operated in our favor.

    McCoy: In plain, non-Vulcan English, we’ve been lucky.

    Spock: I believe I said that, Doctor"

    But I digress . . .

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. JohnnyH

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    Posts: 1,363

    Are the elderly using their voting power to flay the backs of the younger in servitude? Yes.

    Do I envy them? No.

    They still only have 170k to show for 45 years of adulthood, and are utterly dependent on a [lying] govt to live. Public debts, spending and obligations are exploding, yet no one is willing to pay for it. How will it be paid for? The most likely, obvious and politically viable way is with inflation... If it can remain controlled, simply say it is less than it actually is and that margin can keep the corrupt system afloat. They banked their lives on govt promises, they are somewhere between screwed and doomed.

    C40 nailed it. With the young people's net so close to zero the ratio isn't really to be trusted.

    ... We'll see how it turns out. I just hope it doesn't end with me giving silver dime allowances to my quintuple dipping parents.:D

    Also, MikeBOS is absolutely right, it's messed up... Another reason to quit working/paying taxes.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. ffj

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    Mike
    I think you are missing my point slightly. Millions and millions of individuals collectively taking responsibility for their lives is what effects change, not demanding it of others. Should we call attention to the crap in the world? Absolutely. But what is a better scenario: teaching hundreds if not thousands of individuals how to avoid pitfalls like overextended credit or getting one banker not to make faulty loans? One banker incidently who will be replaced immediately by someone who will do the same thing in his absence. We are not going to rid this world of greed and there will always be a con game playing somewhere.

    Dragline
    Please don't think I am trivializing people's lot in life. But my point is this perception that the government, civic groups, or a knight in shining armour is going to save you because you didn't perform due diligence has to stop. Of course there are people in this world that truly need protecting, and to throw out a casual "life is unfair, get over it" would be cruel.

    Chad
    Man, we are just coming from two different ends of the spectrum. I think we both agree we need change; however, our method for a solution is totally divergent from each other. Perhaps a combined effort to take over the world? ;)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. Chad

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    @firefighterjeff
    I'm an INTJ, so I'm always up for taking over the world. I would agree we see the same issues from different viewpoints. Example:

    "teaching hundreds if not thousands of individuals how to avoid pitfalls like overextended credit or getting one banker not to make faulty loans?"

    Given that I think everyone is an idiot, option #2 seems the best. If limited resources are available I would devote them to training and monitoring bankers, as there are far less of them than people. Not that we shouldn't also do #1. I am completely for making personal finance a core discipline all through school (grade school, junior high, and high school), I just don't think it would have prevented this because the majority of people are stupid (it would have reduced it).

    I would also argue that many "successful" people (many CEO's, every TBTF bank executive and board memeber, etc.) aren't responsible for their lives either, as they didn't earn their money.

    It's not that I don't think everyone shouldn't be responsible for their own life, but that I don't think that is remotely possible. Good goal to strive for, but we will always fail.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. ffj

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    Joined: Aug '10
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    Chad

    I certainly believe there is a lot of stupid behavior in this world. And most of it comes down to laziness and greed. Exactly why I have zero sympathy for anyone who believes they can strike it rich or live a wealthy lifestyle without first paying their dues. You can argue that these people are preyed upon by unscrupulous bankers, merchants, real estate agents, television shows, etc. but in most cases the victim has to be willing to be preyed upon. If I stop the exploiters without stopping the individual behaviour which led to the exploitation, I have accomplished nothing. In a sense, you almost can't blame some of these crooks for taking advantage of easy money. It's sort of like being pissed at Mexico for smuggling tons of drugs over our border when we are the ones (Americans) who are snorting, smoking, and injecting this stuff like there is no tomorrow. Maybe if we didn't demand it, they wouldn't provide it.

    As far as this fascination you have with people receiving money or positions in life they didn't earn, you are just going to have to get over that. Take that energy and apply it to something productive. It's not going to go away.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. Chad

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    @firefighterjeff

    "If I stop the exploiters without stopping the individual behaviour which led to the exploitation, I have accomplished nothing. In a sense, you almost can't blame some of these crooks for taking advantage of easy money."

    Wow, we aren't as close as I thought. That thought is kind of scary. http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html

    "As far as this fascination you have with people receiving money or positions in life they didn't earn, you are just going to have to get over that. Take that energy and apply it to something productive. It's not going to go away."

    I can decide what a valid topic is for myself, thank you. And, I don't appreciate the assumption that because I don't bow down to the false capitalism pounded into us that I don't accomplish anything.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. ffj

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    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    O.K. I think we have commandeered this thread long enough, at least I have. I hope you can understand my points even if you don't agree with them. And you have totally misunderstood my last paragraph on undeserved wealth, which is my fault for not going into greater detail. If you want to discuss things further, just PM me so others don't have to suffer our little spat. Thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. Dragline

    Master
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 959

    I commend you both on being polite. The level of civility here is one of the best things about this place.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. Surio

    Sorcerer
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 601

    I second dragline in complimenting the two.
    Good on you two, guys!

    Dragline, another of my observation is that while the tone is generally (always?) civil here, the tolerance/patience level of your counterpart also plays an important factor when you decide to have a debate as in this case. :-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. baggywrinkle

    Novice
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 24

    Could it be that the disparity is by design?

    Please see Foster Gamble's "Thrive What on Earth Will It Take"
    http://thrivemovement.com/

    Posted 1 year ago #

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