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Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Friends & Family Questions

1. 

   Zev
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 437

   There is an implication in the ERE Community thread that one would do best to live in the vicinity of other EREs in order to have a community. I want to challenge this notion and solicit some brainstorming from you regarding how to navigate social life with non-EREs when committed to an austere budget.

   For example, the other day my officemate invited me out for a snack--we were both working on the weekend--this was the first time that I had been out to a restaurant since committing to ERE (only two weeks ago!). This was a social outing that I didn't have a lot invested in--we're not going to be BFFs--so I didn't feel that weird about just ordering tap water and offering a dollar for the tip (which he refused) at the end. It helped that we ran into a few other people who shared our table and ordered food.

   My mental image of Jacob is that he spends a lot of time at home, and eschews most social outings--perhaps he'd like to deepen our understanding of his social life? (not to put you on the spot or anything... ;) For example, after you go sailing, doesn't someone say, "Hey, let's go get some beers," or invite you for dinner? Don't you sometimes feel like inviting someone from your non-profit over for dinner? How does that work?

   In a place like NYC, which I imagine is probably last on the list of EREs' retirement cities, there are tons and tons of free events--opera, theater, concerts--practically on a daily basis, at least in the summer. For those of us who feel the need for greater cultural/social opportunities in ERE than is offered by an off-the-grid country hut, what's the plan?

   Posted 2 years ago #
2. 

   JohnnyH
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 1,393

   Yes, this can be somewhat of a problem... I always try to influence the venue as much as possible.

   Beers after work? Yes, but for happy hour and at the good (cheap) bar... If we're going to an expensive bar, I'm not above flasking it and milking a beer.

   Go out for lunch? Yes, but preferably at the awesome healthy place for which I have discount gift cards + rewards... If not, I'll probably get just a salad, or a beer and eat later.

   Most just assume my health craziness is the main reason (and it often is) I don't order a full meal, or a lot of drinks...

   Posted 2 years ago #
3. 

   Concojones
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 117

   This thread should be titled "eating & going out." Yes, it's a dillema, because, who wants to alienate his friends?

   I've always done my best to cut large, recurring items like housing, and been more relaxed with small, occasional expenses like a drink in town. To ease my mind, I have set budgets for all of these, and the one for social activities ($100/month, roughly, atm) feels more generous to me than the one for housing.

   The thing is, I don't want to feel like a miser. I want to be frugal with myself, but still generous with friends. So yes I'll join friends who suggest to eat out, if it's occasional. What I'll order is something affordable but still appealing. I'll even buy them drinks. If this eating out happens a lot, I'll suggest "other" (read: cheaper) alternatives such as dinner at home.

   P.S. this is my experience in Europe, where eating out is less common than in North America.

   Posted 2 years ago #
4. 

   jacob
   

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   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 3,364

   My social life happens at the point of a sword, literally, not figuratively. I also do other things, like sailing. Hockey is currently on hold. In general, I try to pick activities where I do something I value---this happens to not be eating/drinking at restaurants. This is a personal preference.

   As long as it remains a minor fraction of the bigger budget and it's important. I wouldn't go about it in a half-assed way.

   Eating out is not important to me. In fact, I'm not a big fan of it. That's why I try to avoid it. It's not a money issue.

   This is similar to how few people would pay $20 for a social event that involved walking 10 miles instead of eating a steak. I'd do the former. I wouldn't enjoy the latter.

   Posted 2 years ago #
5. 

   Zev
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 437

   I have a similar aversion to eating out, having mostly to do with being waited upon and the falseness involved therein. A quote from one of my favorite directors, Werner Herzog:

   "I despise formal restaurants. I find all of that formality to be very base and vile. I would much rather eat potato chips on the sidewalk."

   Posted 2 years ago #
6. 

   HSpencer
   

   Master
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 770

   I am not a tightwad, and never have been. I do have preferences galore!! I simply cannot spend $20.00 for a poorly tasting and poorly cooked meal at some greasy spoon cafe. I most certainly can and will spend $20.00 for a great steak dinner at a clean, well kept, and friendly place. I will NOT waste money, I WILL spend money. The problem lies somewhere in between. My wife can take $20.00 and we can eat like kings at home for a few days. So, if eating out, it has to be really, really good. Neither of us can tolerate eating out two meals in a row, so we carry a "cooler lunch" on most trips. That is sandwiches and such and chips prepared at home. All we need is a "clean" roadside park.
   Beer is another subject altogether. Most American beer is only good for killing ants. So if I have an ale or lager (beer is a cheap sounding word), then it must be an import or at least something with a little class to it. I would never drink it from a can or bottle---yep, never. Always the frosted mug, and the lager cold enough to crack the enamel on your teeth. I never "just drink a beer". Lager is for setting up your appetite. One whilst awaiting the meal, one or two with the meal, one or two during the small talk after the meal, then done. If I eat where draft beer is served, I might drink American as long as it is NOT Bud, Coors, or some cheap tasteless crap like those. I like Sam Adams if they have it and they usually do.
   My favorite place to eat is the Brew-Pubs, and Bistros.
   If I am going to spend my money there is going to be some class to things I buy.

   Posted 2 years ago #
7. 

   Concojones
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 117

   @Jacob: eating out or having drinks on a patio isn't important for me, either. However it's something most people like to do, so when I find myself in town or on a trip with other people, someone will likely suggest to eat out or have drinks on a patio, so do you follow or not? Maybe if you have a SO it's different because you spend most of your time among the two of you.

   Posted 2 years ago #
8. 

   jacob
   

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   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 3,364

   @Concojones - I follow. If it's dinner, I order something. If it's breakfast, I don't (or maybe a cup of coffee). Mostly it's just us though.

   Posted 2 years ago #
9. 

   Concojones
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 117

   @Jacob: thanks, I was actually trying to understand how eating out and the like could have such little impact on your budget, but I think I can see how now. People who have a SO tend to spend more time with that SO and less time with friends/coworkers who want to eat out all the time. And you're no different :-)

   Posted 2 years ago #
10. 

    JohnnyH
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,393

    90%+ of restaurants and bars are an unhealthy waste. But excellent values exist!:

    After credit card rewards and promotions (loyalty card, buy $100 get $120 in g.cards, discount for wearing a promo t-shirt [lo the shame!]) I only pay about 60-70% retail, maybe 75% on tips at a local grill.

    You prepare your own food and so I generally have 2-3 heaping plates of fresh vegetables, good meat (like local buffalo), seafood... I tip 20%+ and the staff gives me $1 beers went I want them.

    2-3 plates of food, 3 good beers and 20% tip costs me about $9. Meal + tip alone costs about $6.50-7. These are lunch prices, but unbeatable, I couldn't do that at home! I don't do it to often so it's an event, sometimes I'll bring my book if I'm alone.

    Drinking is the same. Often a waste, but if conversation is good it's a fantastic time... There's a bar in my hometown that does $4 - 60oz pitchers at happy hour of an excellent local micro brew. $8 for hours of stimulating conversation with good beer and good friends is a bargain.

    You can drink at home for cheap, but people like the social component of the bar, even if you don't venture outside your table.

    Posted 2 years ago #
11. 

    jacob
    

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    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,364

    Speaking of bars ... anyone else have problems hearing what people are saying when there's significant (bar-like) background noise? I find that once there are more than 3 conversations going around me at the same time and people begin to have to raise their voices to get heard over the other tables, I can't hear anymore. Maybe my spectrum analyzer is broken. Maybe I've had too little training? Maybe everybody else can't hear anything either but talk anyway?

    Posted 2 years ago #
12. 

    lrduncan
    

    Novice
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 3

    That's exactly why I hate crowds. I can't understand anyone above all the conversations. I've had a hearing test done and physically I have perfect hearing. I just have a hard time distinguishing all the voices from each other.

    Posted 2 years ago #
13. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @jacob and lrduncan: yup. i have great hearing, and my job even requires being able to discern and represent spoken words on the printed page--but put me in a crowd and i don't know what the heck's being said.

    Posted 2 years ago #
14. 

    The Dude
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 392

    @Jacob

    I also have this problem. However, I know some people who can hear just fine in this situation. I wonder if this another quality typical of ER brains like INTJ is for personality.

    Posted 2 years ago #
15. 

    Checking Carly
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 27

    My friend bought a giftcard to a sushi restaurant at a $30 value for $2. We then went to the restaurant, had three sushi dishes, a pitcher of beer, and ended up with a $15 bill, including tip based on the original amount. So, we ended up spending $17 on a $45+ dollar meal between the 3 of us. If you look online, you can definitely find great deals like this so that you can eat out sometimes too. I really like eating out with friends. It gives you a purpose, a set chunk of time to spend together, and no one has to cook or do dishes at the end of the night.

    Posted 2 years ago #
16. 

    JohnnyH
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,393

    @Carly: was that those restaurant.com vouchers?

    Posted 2 years ago #
17. 

    Kevin M
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 211

    @HSpencer - great quote, but does this really work? We've had some visitors in our house and are trying to get rid of them.

    "Most American beer is only good for killing ants"

    -fellow Sam Adams lover

    @jacob - I have the same issue with bars, I'm not a loud talker so I usually have to repeat myself. Very frustrating.

    Posted 2 years ago #
18. 

    JohnnyH
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,393

    I think you guys are just going to too cool of bars! :) I prefer a mostly empty dive bar than a too loud trendy bar.

    Posted 2 years ago #
19. 

    Steve Austin
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 178

    JohnnyH, let's make sure to stand up "Empty Dive Bar(tm)" as one of the first establishments in any ERE Outpost that materializes. ;-)

    Addendum: sub-title on the placard "where you come to think and drink".

    Posted 2 years ago #
20. 

    Maus
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 505

    OK, I'll weigh in with some thoughts.
    1. Instead of focusing on minutiae, give yourself a hard allowance -- mine is $100 per week -- for food, drink and entertainment from all sources. If you are inclined to socialize over a few beers, be prepared to dine at home on rice and beans for a day or two.
    2. The noise factor in bars may be correlated to the I, as opposed to E, in INTJ etc. As an E, I am energized by background noise and, as long as it isn't >100 decibels, more conversations and music heighten my own sensory perceptions.
    3. @Kevin M
    Sprinkle some cinnamon (get it at the dollar store) on the ants' trails, particularly the points of entry to your house. They will be repelled and voila, nuisance gone. Save the beer for drinking.

    Posted 2 years ago #
21. 

    HSpencer
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 770

    @Kevin M.

    It might work but inefficiently however.

    In writing my post, "killing ants" was the first thing that came to mind.

    It may work through chasing them off to a place where decent beers are available?

    Posted 2 years ago #
22. 

    HSpencer
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 770

    At everyone and Jacob:

    I could not hear much of anything due to a wax buildup in my ears.

    My right ear was finally totally stopped up. I went to my Dr, and one look in each ear, and he fetches the "big syringe and a nurse". 15 minutes of high pressure washing, and another 10 minutes of small tool scraping, and "I can hear-I can hear, a new day has dawned, I can hear"!!!

    No, it's not a fun ordeal, but well worth it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
23. 

    George the original one
    

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    Posts: 1,972

    @Maus - Cinnamon? Wow, that's one I've never heard of! I'm used to the "add yeast to flour or sugar and they'll take it back to the queen and she'll blow up and die" recipie.

    Posted 2 years ago #
24. 

    Marius
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 258

    @ Jacob "anyone else have problems hearing what people are saying when there's significant (bar-like) background noise?"

    Yes, I have this very much. Even if the background noise is not very significant I'm always the guy in the group who has great difficulties following the conversation. I catch part of it and try to guess the rest. I'm an INTP.

    I've been examined in three different hospitals with various techniques and they always say my hearing is fine. Last time they did notice some limited loss in the higher ranges but didn't think that could be related.

    Maybe the problem is not in my ears but in the brain circuits that have to filter out the background noise? Some guy suggested it might be an attention problem (I've always suspected I have some form of ADD), but I don't think so.

    About eating out: I used to not get it. And I didn't understand why people always assumed I needed to drink when I visited them. Now I understand that eating out is not about fuel. Going for a drink is not about thirst. Spending a weekend fishing is not about the fish. Etc.
    My parents didn't get much visitors and I didn't learn much of the unwritten rules of social contact as a kid. I'm by no means autistic but I've recently bought a book for autotistic adolescents that explains this kind of things. ("socially curious and curiously social"). No opinion on the book yet, haven't found much time to read lately.
    For most of us this stuff is also about priorities, but maybe we're also big nerds. ;)

    Posted 2 years ago #
25. 

    Q
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 346

    I ate out for 10 years straight. Many reasons for that, but, I am used to it now. I can hear and process many conversations at once, even if I am not paying attention.

    My jobs lately have nearly required the super multi-tasking that I have had to endure lately, but, I have noticed as a side effect lately that I try to absorb too much and get a massive headache and go thru a period of dis-orientation. Thankfully it hasn't happened more than a few times.

    Posted 2 years ago #
26. 

    Checking Carly
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 27

    @JohnnyH yep! They're a really great deal!

    Posted 2 years ago #
27. 

    Kevin M
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 211

    @Maus - thanks for the cinnamon tip. My wife heard of Borax & something else which escapes me now, that seemed to work for now as we haven't seen any ants for a week.

    @HSpencer - I went through a de-waxing this spring. It was amazing. I drove home thinking my car door was open b/c I could hear the wind so clearly. My doctor said "get out the fire hose!"

    Posted 2 years ago #
28. 

    JohnnyH
    

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    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,393

    @Steve: "Empty Dive Bar(tm), where you come to think and drink"

    Awesome! I am so in... Bunch of nerds hanging out drinking, reading books and getting in heated arguments... Naw, INTJs don't really argue, people argue with us.

    @Carly: thanks for the info on the restaurants.com voucers... I've always been curious, but am apprehensive about how the whole thing works... I'll give it a try!

    Posted 2 years ago #
29. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    re: our discussion on the NYC ERE meet-up thread, here is my aspirational strategy for dealing with going out to eat, as well as Steve Austin's:

    * I will have at least two meals that I invite people to join me in at my apartment each week--perhaps a Sunday brunch and a weekday evening dinner. When someone invites me to brunch or dinner out, I will have a running chance at being able to truthfully say, "Sorry, I have brunch/dinner plans already, but you're welcome to join us."

    * Accept the invitation, order a cheap item (salad, for example), then if people are still hanging out after, invite them over for drinks instead of going out.

    Posted 2 years ago #
30. 

    akratic
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 482

    @Zev, I like that plan a lot. I should learn how to cook in a way that I would not be embarrassed to feed a group. What are you planning to cook?

    Posted 2 years ago #
31. 

    B
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 165

    I find it helps if your guests aren't picky eaters. I'm not talking about vegans or kosher or people allergic to gluten or whatever. Those people usually will eat anything that meets their requirements. I mean the "omnivores" that refuse to eat a given food for the slightest reason.

    Popular excuses:
    1) I ate that earlier this week.
    2) I ate something else, but it was the same ethnic kind as that, earlier this week.
    3) That's not the right kind of food for the time of day! (No eggs for dinner? Who invented this rule?)
    4) That's too heavy of a meal. (Have a 1/2 portion!)
    5) That's too light of a meal. (Have double!)
    6) No veggies?
    7) No meat?
    8) Ew, brown rice.
    9) Ew, fish.
    10) Ew, raw tomatoes.
    11) Ew, etc.
    12) Everything on the plate is the same color! (WAT)

    I can barely stand to choose a restaurant with this kind of person! Let alone cook for them! How does one handle this kind of guest?

    Posted 2 years ago #
32. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,364

    I use something like (1) when people [I know well] want to go to lunch, etc. "Why do you need to eat again? Didn't you eat yesterday? Are you guys diabetic or something?" :-D

    Posted 2 years ago #
33. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @akratic I usually cook really basic paleo dinners: Grass-fed meat of one sort or another, usually sautéed over low heat in a bunch of coconut oil, same treatment of sweet potato, same treatment of kale or brussels sprouts. Dessert: unsweetened coconut "ice cream" with berries.

    But if I have vegetarian guests I will experiment with some of the soaked/fermented grains and legumes recipe from Nourishing Traditions.

    For brunch it would be omellettes with aged raw cheese, organic greens, coconut oil, and deep orange-colored pastured eggs, plus, being in New York, mimosas.

    Posted 2 years ago #
34. 

    Felix
    

    Master
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 424

    Maybe the best defense is attack? I'm new to this, but I plan on inviting people over several times a week and make some food or let them bring food, beer, etc. I also provide the location to make a mess, TV, BBQ, and such. I make a pretty good potato salad, which helps. :-)

    Posted 2 years ago #
35. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    I have always struggled with this. I have very social friends who love restaurants, pubs, etc. This is one reason I ran up a bunch of credit card debt in my 20s.

    I make a lot more money now, and I still go out, but certainly not as often. Meals at home with friends is great. If your friends are like minded in the least bit you just trade meals and its all good! ;-)

    @ Felix - I like your idea, the best defense is a good offense heres to hoping they return the favor!

    Posted 2 years ago #
36. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    @ Zev - That Nourishing Traditions book seems to be very popular, well referenced, and a good addition to any library. Thanks for the find!

    Posted 2 years ago #
37. 

    dragoncar
    

    Expert
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 1,291

    Ok, old thread revived, but I just read it and I'm really starting to feel like you guys are "my people". Favorite quote is JohnnyH "INTJs don't really argue, people argue with us." Haha, at least half true because it definitely takes two to argue.

    I also have trouble hearing in noisy environments. My hearing is fine from the frequency perspective, so I also independently came to the same conclusion as Maus and others that there is some "circuit" misfiring in my brain. Whatever allows people to interpolate poorly received spoken language seems to be missing.

    On the other hand, I do have earwax, but I do at least a monthly cleaning with peroxide and a special syringe (I sometimes wonder if the peroxide may eventually cause ear cancer... as I read it's known to increase those kinds of cells in gum tissue).

    Of course, all of this is completely off topic. I don't currently beg off social expenses because I'm in the asset accumulation phase and the savings difference is smaller than the benefits. However, I expect to incorporate your suggestions in the future.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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