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Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Joint projects

1. 

   Zev
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 437

   What if we gathered somewhere for some weeks/months and had a rotating volunteer staff of Tumbleweed builders?

   * Everyone who wants a Tumbleweed puts into a fund
   * We try to salvage what materials we can
   * We use our economies of scale to get discounts on the materials we must buy
   * We use our division of labor and economies of scale to build many Tumbleweeds
   * We possibly also cooperate in acquiring transportation resources to get the Tumbleweeds to where they need to be, without necessitating truck ownership by every individual

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. 

   ffj
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 342

   These houses are nothing more than a garden shed with heat. For 13,000 dollars for the most basic one I could knock out at least three for the cost of one. If one were to salvage material, the cost would be much less. A small team could build one of these easily in a weekend. I have every tool necessary to build one of these so if you want to come down to Kentucky we'll build one. I also have the know-how.

   What about infringement rights with the Tumbleweed people? Are you talking about a franchise or an independent builder? The plans are simple; we wouldn't need to use their plans. Anyway, got to go. Later.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. 

   dragoncar
   

   Expert
   Joined: Oct '10
   Posts: 1,289

   In theory, they are garden-shedlike only in size, not in quality. How much do you really insulate your garden shed?

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. 

   jacob
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 3,301

   @firefighter - I think the intention is to use economy of scale to build tumbleweeds for the participants to later live in so as to avoid everyone renting their own warehouse, their own electrician, etc.

   In terms of the tumbleweed company, you can build ONE house for each ONE plan you buy. Legally you can't buy a plan and build two houses with it [as far as I understand].

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. 

   Chris L
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Sep '10
   Posts: 150

   These are not hard to design or build. There's not much reason to buy the plans.

   There are many drawn backs to the house style though. A trailer, in many ways, is superior to a tumbleweed. Think trailer, then make it look nicer, then make it a lot heavier and a lot less portable.

   It's a nice concept but it's not livable long-term. A family needs about 900 sq ft or so to live at any human convenience.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. 

   jacob
   

   Expert
   Joined: Jul '10
   Posts: 3,301

   @Chris L - Many families live in RVs and on boats full time. A really big RV (38'+) is <400sqft. A really big boat (50'+) is <120sqft. Obviously comfort levels are personal and vary widely :)

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. 

   ffj
   

   Master
   Joined: Aug '10
   Posts: 342

   Wasn't paying attention to the particulars of the post; I was in a hurry to keep an appointment when I posted.

   O.K. so this would be for everyone who would like one then and would be interested in buying material in bulk and sharing labor. Am I correct? Well, you wouldn't need a warehouse to build one in; any open ground with access to electricity or a generator would do. And once the plan(s) are formalized, you could knock these off assembly line style. Regarding the plans, since these really aren't complicated, my garden shed analogy applies Dragoncar,( think garden shed with a trimmed out interior and a sleeping loft) I personally wouldn't need to buy any plans. Hell, you could even buy a garden shed from someplace like Lowes and customize the interior, it would save a lot of work.

   The trick would be to modularize the size so that one could maximize material usage. The less cuts you have to make means less material is wasted and hence a lower cost. It also saves on labor. Again, once you built the prototype, you could fly with the others. The plumbing and wiring is minimal and therefore uncomplicated. Having replumbed and rewired my house, I can tell you doing these things isn't magic, anybody can learn. The trimwork and finishing touches is usually what distinguishes a house and these would be no exception. So most of your labor would be taken up by this.

   So, the offer stands. Anybody want to build one of these? Come on down to Kentucky and I will lend you my tools, expertise, and space ( my 1 acre yard). If enough of you are interested, we'll need numbers, by working together we could easily build several.

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. 

   EMJ
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 171

   More tiny houses:

   http://www.tinyhousedesign.com/
   http://tinyhouseblog.com/

   I've just built a 8x18' - to live in for at least a few years.

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. 

   dragoncar
   

   Expert
   Joined: Oct '10
   Posts: 1,289

   Tempting offer, jeff, particularly the expertise. I agree we probably couldn't/shouldn't use an actual Tumbleweed design. But we can make a "Tumblweed inspired" design easily. I personally like their more modern/simple one here: http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/houses/popomo/

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    Jeff, thank you for the generous offer. I'm excited about making this happen, and I think it could be a great, beneficial way of having a "national" ERE meetup with at least a particular subset of our little subculture--namely, the tiny house subset.

    Regarding whether to use Tumbleweed plans or not, I think Jay Shafer has put a lot of thought into designing some really pleasant spaces, so I'd suggest we try to get an above-board group buy of plans. I'm sure they (Tumbleweed) would be game, because it could generate some press if we wanted it to, plus some revenue for them.

    Dragon, I really favor the Popomo too, though it does break the 120-foot zoning threshold of many locales in the US; for that reason, I might opt for one of the "triangle"-style ones, but use more drywall than wood for the interiors, a la Popomo.

    Some nuts and bolts: Jeff and other experts, what do you think would be a good number to really get cooking and gain some significant economy of scale? Five, ten, 20 little houses being worked on concurrently?

    re: raising a family in a Tumbleweed--agreed! Even Jay Shafer isn't raising his family in one.

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. 

    jennypenny
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 1,344

    @dragoncar--I'm curious what the advantage is of the popomo vs. an RV? Is it just that it feels more like a home? We have a '95 popup with a king bed, a queen bed, a casette toilet and shower, and dining area. It also has heat/ac and a detachable screen room. It can be had for less than $1000 now.

    I liked the look of the popomo, but I think I'd choose the permanent version of that model.

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,301

    @jennypenny - Having lived in an RV (class A with the luxury interior option) and having been in a tiny house (Jays's Open House in Sebastopol), I can say the latter feels MUCH more like a stick house. Beyond that, the only advantages I can think of is 1) If you built it, you can fix it. 2) Very superior insulation (most RVs have none).

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    Jacob: stick house = good/bad?

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    Asked Tumbleweed on FB about a "package deal."

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. 

    dragoncar
    

    Expert
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 1,289

    jennypenny -- what's the advantage of any of these vs. an RV?

    I think it boils down to:
    Appearance
    Quality
    Insulation

    anyone else have an idea of the appeal?

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,301

    @dragoncar - Oh right, appearance ;-) ... Also, bragging points that you built your own home. More importantly, you can fix any problem with the house (I'm really frustrated with finding hidden screws in the RV). You're also making a clear statement that you live in a small home by choice. To mainstream consumers, living in an RV sometimes suggests some form of involuntary destitution. I've been called "homeless" for living in an RV on a few occasions.

    @Zev - I'd say good. It feels more homely. An RV feels more like an expedition. So it depends on what you like best. The traveling types might prefer the RV. I suspect the RV will have storage optimized whereas I could see the tiny House as something that's still being optimized.

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,301

    Just looked at the facebook page. I think he misunderstood it as us wanting to build a village [in this thread] rather than just getting together to order lumber in bulk.

    Actually, I WOULD like to build a village(*) by buying an RV park and mainly catering to long term renters in tiny houses. I think that would be awesome.

    (*) Then later, I'm going to buy a small country, just watch me :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. 

    Riggerjack
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 158

    i agree with Firefighter Jeff, that this doesn't seem like a big deal to build. The main difference to a shed is appearance and wind sheer/siesmic factors. to make this road worthy, you have to build tough and light. look at simpson strong ties. whatever you need to brace this, they have it, and you can order them thru HD.

    i like the look, but i don't think you will see much economy of scale when building these. not to rain on anyone's parade, but think of the scale of a typical 2011 residential build. everyone together is barely going to make a marerials list big enough for a supply house to have any interest in. lumber prices are low enough that the gas from coast to coast would more than eat up your savings.

    That being said, nothing speeds a project up like expert assistance and dedication to completion. Since the former is available in Kentucky, it may be worth the trip to find the latter.

    In any case, good luck!

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. 

    ffj
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    Zev, others,

    Went to their website and one of their customers photoblogged the entire building process, something like 400+ pictures. Very imformative on how Tumbleweeds wants it done. However, by tweaking a few of the processes and materials, you could have the same quality with faster and cheaper results. Stuff like hardwood floor vs. quality laminate flooring, lapped cedar siding vs. T-111 or metal siding, even the roof could be shingle if long transports weren't required. The interior shouldn't be skimped on in my opinion because that is what is going to distinguish it from a trailer.

    Getting to the number of units to build, I would think 3 to 5 would be the minimum with an emphasis on all of them being the same design with small variations. The trailers would have to be the same make and model. If this weren't the case, you would essentially be building semi-custom homes that would kill your bottom line. If you had a buyer, you could even build an extra to sell to cover costs.

    So, ideally a large group of people show up to learn how to do this with 3 to 5 ponying up the money for costs. The goal would be to frame it, sheet it, roof it ( basically getting it into the dry) and to complete all of the electrical and plumbing quickly. That way, if we run out of time everyone has a "house" to take home. That would leave the interior to finish which is a slower process. There's only so many people that can be working inside at a time, plus running trim and installing cabinets is inherently slower anyway.

    A couple of weeks, lots of potluck, and everybody working their asses off would accomplish much.

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. 

    dragoncar
    

    Expert
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 1,289

    Where are people planning on parking these guys?

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,301

    In the RV park I'm going to buy 8-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. 

    ffj
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    Dragoncar

    I live in the country plus am a volunteer firefighter with access to a lot of property. Plus I even have some friends. :) Parking is not an issue. Bathroom facilities might be more of a challenge. Of course, my home would be open to guests. Lodging would be the other issue, you could camp in my yard or stay at the local motel.

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. 

    dragoncar
    

    Expert
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 1,289

    jacob, might it be easier to incorporate our own town and zone as we see fit? :-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. 

    jennypenny
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 1,344

    We used to pay $15 a month to store the popup. Not bad.

    I agree appearance is a big factor with an RV. And we do have to insulate from the outside in extreme weather (which doesn't help the appearance issue). I can see paying the premium for the tumbleweed if you could keep costs down. I would still feel uneasy building something new instead of buying used (doesn't seem very green to me), but I like the idea of promoting small house living.

    I love the idea of the RV park. That's the first idea I've read here that would entice me to ante up. Unfortunately our timeline is probably longer than yours. I can't fit any kids into a tumbleweed so I'd have to wait until they were all away at college. (unless I could talk my boys into building their own and living next door to us)

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. 

    tuixiuren
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 31

    Keep us updated on your village, Jacob. It sounds like the perfect place for a tiny house. :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    I like how action-oriented we're getting.

    Dragon--I'd park mine somewhere in Westchester County, north of NYC. Either on my own land, or preferably on a rented backyard somewhere. Incorporating a town: sounds brilliant. In NH, I assume?

    Jenny--I would have been excited about having my own Tumbleweed when I was an adolescent!

    Jeff--I'm ready to schedule this thing whenever another half-dozen of us are. Appreciate your expert input on modularity, etc. Totally down to camp.

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    EMJ--do you have any pics of your little place? Where (approximately if you want to be private) are you located?

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. 

    rachels
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 156

    I like the RV village idea a lot. If you really got together a work party, I would consider coming just to trade inexperienced labor for learning more about carpentry, wiring, etc.

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. 

    JasonR
    

    Master
    Joined: Feb '11
    Posts: 334

    @firefighterjeff - I, like rachels, am willing to trade labor for learning.

    Is there enough interest or money to make this happen anytime soon?

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. 

    EMJ
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 171

    Southern BC, in the corner of a field. And before you ask - no, it's not to code or with permits.

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. 

    ffj
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    I think what would be helpful is if someone like Zev were to decide on a plan and price a trailer to build it on. Maybe send me the info on the design and I could price it out down here. There are a lot of custom trailer builders down here so if I knew what size to inquire about I could see what they would charge. If everybody knew ballpark what these things could be built for that may generate some committments.

    Just to be clear, I don't want to build one for myself unless I could sell it for profit. I own a house already and while it would make my daughter very happy to have one I have no use for one. With that said, I think it would be fun to build a few with plenty of willing hands. Think of it as a Habitat Build.

    Another thing, while I can price the building materials and the like I have no idea what the composting toilets and propane heaters cost or what Tumbleweeds promotes. What would be helpful with the plans would be the schematics for the electrical, plumbing, and heating systems. However, this isn't rocket science so it wouldn't be hard to figure out.

    We got Zev, Rachels, and JasonR, who's next? My vacation starts Oct. 1st, I'll be free.

    Posted 1 year ago #
32. 

    JohnnyH
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,366

    These have to be built on a trailer? Add $2k... Gas from Kentucky to anywhere else, add $1k. Materials, including and especially wood, are not cheap. Fixtures are expensive. Same with appliances. It will be a difficult sell getting more than 10% discount. Finish carpentry is labor and skill intensive.

    I think the price of gas and transportation alone makes this an unprofitable venture.

    Get an RV. Or a manufactured or modular home at auction... Will cost less and you won't end up with mounting costs and complexity on a partially framed shed 1000 miles away.

    Ouch, I am a negative Nancy... Prove me wrong, guys! If anyone can do it, it would be this bunch. If it works out, I'll come begging to join with my tail between my legs.

    __
    I'm surprised by RVs having such poor insulation. Mobile homes are actually renowned for their insulation... it's one of the few things that doesn't suck about them. Perhaps an airstream teardown with fantastic insulation. Now that's something I'd be interested in. Especially with the way they hold their value.
    __
    Also, why live 1 place year round?... Splitting the year between 2 places could easily avoid 70% of the unpleasantness associated with seasonality. I'm planning on living in at the very least 2 places during the year in my retirement.

    Posted 1 year ago #
33. 

    chilly
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 275

    I am also very interested in homes like these. I've kind of abandoned the trailer idea primarily for the practicality of year round living. I think well designed places like these could do that successfully.

    So on to being a wet blanket about the details though :)

    First major concern is that these houses cannot be towed by a Honda Civic or even a Ford F150. They may not even be towable by 3/4 ton trucks (F250, 2500HD) - I need to read up some more... but higher quality generally means more weight.

    Second major concern involves the practical but expensive considerations.... water, sewer/septic, and electrical? Land can be had cheaply in a lot of places, but a septic system and well are not cheap anywhere. You can build an awesome house yourself, but not many people DIY a well, septic, or a main electric feed (I can't).

    RV parks seem prohibitively expensive around here (New England) too... $300-$400 minimum / month for a... um... not aesthetically pleasing or especially nice location.

    Composting toilets are great in principal, and may even be practical for the role they play... but what about gray water - most places won't let you just dump a pipe out the bottom of your trailer. You certainly wouldn't want 10 little houses randomly dumping gray water on a shared 2 acre plot.

    @EMJ what do you do for those necessities on your land?

    Posted 1 year ago #
34. 

    m741
    

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 734

    I've been thinking about these for a while. I'd really prefer to build my own but don't have much experience with these things.

    I would be interested in helping out if it were somewhere near NYC, just to get the experience.

    Also, I agree with chilly, the biggest concern is electricity, sewage, plumbing, etc. That is, the parts that hook up to the house.

    Posted 1 year ago #
35. 

    m741
    

    Master
    Joined: Jan '11
    Posts: 734

    Also, check this out:

    Scrap House blog
    Q & A

    Dude built a house using found materials for under $8. And it's not a hut or a corncob house, but looks totally legit.

    Posted 1 year ago #
36. 

    ffj
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 342

    Johnny,

    I am offering my land, tools, and expertise. It's up to everybody else whether it is worth it to them to drive all the way to the Blugrass State and haul a very heavy home back to where they came. My interest in this is two-fold : these things are way over-priced and can be built for less than even the kit they offer, and to prove that construction isn't some magical mystery that only a contractor can perform.

    All your points are dead-on but substitute this house with the trailer (rv) that Jacob lives in and what is the difference? Probably the resale value.

    Posted 1 year ago #
37. 

    chilly
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 275

    Looks like I misspoke about the towing capacity. A decent full size truck would pull most of the tiny houses... I was not considering a <150sqft place myself - so hadn't really considered how tiny they were. One the size of a normal travel trailer (20-30') would be very heavy.

    Posted 1 year ago #
38. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 925

    With tiny movable houses you may skip that endless thread about the US ERE City and just start building. Then the city choice is not so critical anymore as it can be easily changed.

    While I'm at Brazil, I'm also thinking about building one of these myself. I have no experience whatsoever, but I have time. I also have an uncle that is a professional carpenter and some kind of "mad scientist" regarding hacking things. He happens to lives in the same city where I just bought a house.

    I was considering the possibility to buy one of Jay's designs in the future, so if we get a good deal I may join and buy it sooner. I hope he opens the possibility to each one to choose his own house design in this "package deal". Although the houses are quite similar and I would probably change some things in my model.

    Posted 1 year ago #
39. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 925

    Guys, electricity and plumbing are very very easy even for anyone without any experience. And is also very little work for a small house.

    Regarding sewage, a big hole you dig in the ground will do for a first solution. Just cover it with some lid and cover the lid with earth. If you have land, when you fill it, you just dig a new one and let the first one become manure. Just change the pipe directing to the other. It's labor intensive to dig, but very simple. You also don't need to dig too much, organic matter get much smaller when decomposes. If you want a better solution, you dig a hole as a first option and then have time to find your way. That is a more useful version of digging and filling holes than the one we are used to...

    In the last house I lived in, there was a simple sewage system, a hole probably not more than 1.5 meters deep, with cement walls, and a pipe was put in the bottom and went to the top to drain excess water. That didn't need any maintenance in 4 or 5 years. Gray water is much easier to work with, any smaller hole will suck everything in.

    Now I don't know anything about US laws.

    But I mean, come on people, this is ERE, we learn to do things. If you are a woman or don't want to exercise too much, just rent a tractor to quickly dig to you. It can't be that expensive, it's a small thing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
40. 

    Chris L
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 150

    Every city has an expert contractor that can be had for little money to aid in the construction versus doing all this moving about.

    Why not toss a few bucks at an expert to help build locally? But honestly, these things are not harder to build than a shed. It seems bizarre to want to build these things off site. They really are not meant to be moved about.

    An ERE city, yeah, do that. I might even consider a second winter home since I live in Canada and it gets cold. Having a place to winter would be a nice respite and for 12k might be worth it. Then again, I might just pitch a tent if I was welcome versus putting up all that dough.

    I thought a lot about doing the small house thing, but for harsh critical thinking the idea breaks down. Just the fact that you need a huge truck to pull them adds significant costs. If you're building on site, it would work. Getting together to build these things isn't useful.

    Over the phone, via web interface, sending photos, etc. you can get all the expertise you need.

    With all building, half goes to material, half goes to LABOUR (your savings because you are DIYing). Now add on top of this, extra cost of shipping and you might break even.

    Costs of materials is small and not even big builders get significant savings over the regular guy. You might save 15% on your materials if you could buy it ALL from the same location. Unless you're going to build 100 of these, it's not going to amount to much.

    If there was an interest, there would be a cheaper way to do it.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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