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41. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @ Maus Mmmm, boar. Yeah, I'm hoping to bag more than the 2-4 deer allowed by NYS by befriending an orchard owner or two, to get "population control" tags or whatever they're called. I'm thinking about documenting it on NYChunter.com, but then again I think about a lot of things. :) For instance, to your point, I may be getting ahead of myself with my assumptions about how many deer I will get, given my dearth of experience--NYC still hasn't even sent me my gun permit, so I'm somewhat running behind! I still have to:

    * buy a rifle
    * go the range several times to improve my aim
    * get a hunting permit
    * hunting season starts in ~ 8 weeks!

    If you want to read Nourishing Traditions on my Kindle account via your smartphone/computer/Kindle, let me know and I'll give you my password for a few weeks. Find my email here.

    Posted 2 years ago #
42. 

    Steve Austin
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 178

    Paleo dieters. I read a blurb on low-carb diets based on animal protein, from the journal Annals of Internal Medicine:

    http://www.annals.org/content/153/5/289.abstract

    That's the abstract; membership only on the full-text (I don't have membership).

    Comments? Concurrence, dissent?

    Posted 2 years ago #
43. 

    Robert Muir
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 280

    Interesting, but I think there are far too many variables to draw statistically significant conclusions.

    Posted 2 years ago #
44. 

    Marius
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 258

    Steve, very interesting, thanks!

    Has anyone found a book or other source of info on low carb diets that mostly use vegetable sources?

    Posted 2 years ago #
45. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @ Steve It's unusual to find such studies that distinguish between factory-farmed meat and pastured meat. There's a world of difference in their health effects. Presumably these high-vegetable/low-carb diets were super high-protein, because if they were using vegetable oils (anything besides rapeseed/olive/palm oil) as a significant source of fat, other studies point to that they would have been dropping like flies.

    The Taubes and Fallon books (Good Calories, Bad Calories & Nourishing Traditions) are rife with proof of the above.

    Posted 2 years ago #
46. 

    Mo
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 443

    @NYC,

    "...early cultures around the world independently came to these practices of soaking, fermenting and grinding, so it's unlikely to be superstition, and very likely to be health-bestowing."

    Why does this make it likely to be health-bestowing? Didn't several early cultures independently come to practice things like smoking too?

    Posted 2 years ago #
47. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @ Steve and anyone else: Way complicated deconstruction of the study you referenced, with a pro-paleo conclusion.

    @ Mo -- touché. the way i laid that out is not too convincing. the point is that various cultures stumbled upon grinding and fermentation as a way to get more nutrition out of their food. this fact lends itself to the conclusion that other groups which didn't adapt neolithic foods (grains) in this manner may have fallen out of the gene pool. the health-bestowing part of it is something we know through nutritional science and anthropological research by folks such as Weston Price.

    Posted 2 years ago #
48. 

    Maus
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 505

    @NYC
    Thanks for the link to the "deconstruction." My confidence in paleo has been restored. Tonight I will celebrate with a big hunk of grilled flank steak and a bunch of steamed spinach.

    Posted 2 years ago #
49. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @ Maus -- My pleasure. A paleo tip: Sauté the spinach in copious coconut oil/lard/tallow/butter instead of steaming it; you need your fat, and it will taste WAY better. Also, FYI kale has much lower anti-nutrient content (affects bioavailability of nutrients) than spinach.

    Posted 2 years ago #
50. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    Prominent vegan advocate: "I was wrong about veganism."

    Posted 2 years ago #
51. 

    runrunruneateateat
    

    Novice
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 26

    As far as I can tell, one aspect of choosing to be vegan or vegetarian that hasn't been explored in this topic is concern for the lives of the animals. Whether an animal is free-range or not, it's hard to deny that once we sell something they produce (whether it's meat, eggs, or milk) they become a product rather than just a living creature with their own interests, feelings, etc. I think it's a personal choice and only really talk about my choices when people ask me about them but I felt I had to make an exception here since this viewpoint seemed to be underrepresented.

    Vegans/vegetarians are sometimes portrayed as people who deny themselves pleasure. I guess you could draw a parallel here to how people who pursue ERE are sometimes viewed. I ate meat until I was 16 mainly because it was what everyone did and it was easy. From the time I made the connection that meat=dead animal I felt it was wrong but I continued to eat it. I guess 16 was the age where I was grown-up enough to strike out on my own based on my values. It was difficult; perhaps not surprisingly, the hardest part wasn't giving up eating meat (the cravings subsided after a month or two and were replaced with cravings for vegetarian foods) it was dealing with what other people thought. They thought I'd get sick (I didn't), not eat enough (I eat plenty), etc. Going veg wasn't deprivation for me--it was finally alligning that part of my life with my beliefs and it felt awesome! Like, really, really awesome! Similarly, when you pursue ERE people think your lack of a TV, car, or fancy clothes equals deprivation. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir here, but for some people, not having these things feels great too.

    Posted 2 years ago #
52. 

    runrunruneateateat
    

    Novice
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 26

    p.s. I should mention that I'm a bit of a hypocrite; if I lived my ideals 100% then I'd be vegan, not vegetarian. So far the moderation of the vegetarian lifestyle has worked better for me but I'm slowly minimizing my use of animal products.

    Posted 2 years ago #
53. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @runeat I see your point about the parallels between veg. and ERE. One of the main things that appeals to me about ERE is "being the change you want to see in the world," and that's actually how I view my choice to support sustainable farming and agriculture, as well as humane animal husbandry.

    I think "meat=dead animal=wrong" is not as cut and dried as one might think, especially in the context of hunting: Prey animals in the wild--I'm thinking of deer in particular--hardly ever die of old age; rather they die of either starvation or non-human predators--in other words, eaten alive. A skilled hunter can end a deer's life in a split-second, I dare say close to painlessly, which is ≥ humane than a (sadly often less-than-lethal) bolt in the brain; hunting doe also makes it more likely that their children will survive!

    Here is another raging debate on roughly our topic.

    Posted 2 years ago #
54. 

    runrunruneateateat
    

    Novice
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 26

    @Zev: Thanks for the links; I don't know much about the Paleo diet and it's interesting to read about it. There are a lot of compelling arguments on that site. I agree that a bullet in the brain is a pretty humane form of slaughter and there is certainly a major deer overpopulation problem. My friend who lives about an hour north of NYC basically has to barricade her garden to save any of its produce for herself, and there are lots of car accidents up there caused by deers. If she didn't live in such a residential neighborhood she'd probably invite you to hunt in her yard, LOL.

    If eating meat is important to you then like you said, hunting your own deer is likely the most humane, ecologically-friendly, responsible option available. For me, meat isn't important, and I doubt I'd be able to pull the trigger. But like I said before, I think diet is a personal decision and what works for one person often doesn't work for another person. I know some people feel sluggish or weak on a vegetarian diet and I wouldn't suggest to them that they stay on it if that was the case. I care for animals but human health comes first.

    Posted 2 years ago #
55. 

    JohnnyH
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,393

    Everything that lives also dies. Eating invariably involves killing. There is much evidence plants are intelligent.

    The people I buy my eggs, milk and meat from have tremendous respect for the animals.

    Posted 2 years ago #
56. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,363

    How about keeping rabbits in the basement, possum living style?

    Posted 2 years ago #
57. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @ jacob She fed them grains and kept them in cages--this is basically a DIY factory farm; not the healthiest meat (maybe not especially humane either!).

    I just gave our friend in Mississippi a paleo starter kit of info.

    Posted 2 years ago #
58. 

    GuelphDC
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 12

    Has anyone read "The Vegetarian Myth"? For vegan/vegetarians/anyone who doesn't know where your food comes from it is an excellent read. The basic premise is this:

    1.) The author was a stoic vegan for years
    2.) She got seriously ill being a vegan, but continued being a vegan because she loved animals.
    3.) She tried to grow her own food and found out that in order to nourish the land she was growing her food on in a natural way, she needed animals.

    I think that a lot of people, people who eat paleo and those who don't think that it just shows up on their plate. Those beans and rice you're eating? Although cheap and vegan, in order to get this, animals had to die as well.....land is plowed and cleared (think of all the habitat that's destroyed, or with rice, generally flooded after planting

    - The thing with eating meat that has been pastured vs. grain-fed is that the cattle build topsoil up, compared to the massive amounts of soil that have been lost in conventional farming.

    I think that people have to take more interest in what they're eating and know the impact that there food has on their environment, whether it's vegan or meat.

    Posted 2 years ago #
59. 

    Jon
    

    Apprentice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 35

    I just got done reading Zev's post to Jasonmississippi... and wow! The was probably the best action plan summary for a diet I've ever read.

    Do any of the paleos here have an opinion about raw meat or tried it for a period of time? From a minimalist perspective this seems as simple as it gets. No cooking, just eat it as its slaughtered.

    Also, is it possible that our digestive systems are somewhat evolved from our paleolithic ancestors to the point where 1. our bodies can't take full advantage of the foods they ate and 2. we are sort of adapted for an agrarian diet (though not fully hence diabetes blah blah blah)?

    Posted 2 years ago #
60. 

    dpmorel
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 137

    My problem with the paleo diet and all protein oriented diets - India, China, Japan. How are they so skinny yet eat boat loads of sticky rice and naan constantly?

    Also, I love some of the history about Kellogs and macro-nutrient breakdown and how protein vs carbs has been a fabricated debate ongoing for about 120 years now. The more we focus on macro-nutrients and "food science" the worse our health seems to get.

    Posted 2 years ago #
61. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @Jon thanks for your kind words--i hope Jason makes progress with it...

    @dpmorel Again, research first, comment second, if you please:

    The paleo diet is not a high-protein diet--some paleos may eat high-protein, others eat 100-200 grams of carbs a day. If anything, it's a high-fat diet. "High-fat" compared to conventional recommendations in our times; normal-fat compared to our paleolithic ancestors. Ironically, the capital P "Paleo Diet" as coined by Cordain actually is a high-protein, relatively low-fat diet, however, which could be where your confusion lies; he has since changed his tune on fat.

    You also seem to still be confusing the paleo diet with a "diet," as in temporary calorie restriction for purposes of weight loss; it isn't. Many people lose weight on it, but that's just a byproduct of eating in the way your body evolved to. As you do your research, DP, you may also find that rice isn't really that vilified in the paleo community; gluten is the most important thing to avoid.

    @dpmorel and @Jon I don't know enough to talk knowledgeably about the skinny Asians or whether we've evolved to do okay with grains, but a few quick thoughts:

    * skinny Asians -- skinny Asians ≠ healthy Asians, though they do seem to do better than Westerners in many regards. However, compare the physique of someone eating a diet made largely of rice to your typical paleo and decide which seems healthier or more desirable. Furthermore, compare the longevity of Okinawans (lots of fish; indeed, plenty of rice; vegetables; cooking fat of choice = lard!) to their Asian counterparts. As for naan in India, are Indians really that healthy? This isn't their reputation--perhaps it's due to the fact that wheat flour has very little to sustain us.

    * grains/evolution -- there have been some changes to human digestion since paleolithic times, which is why some people are able to deal with dairy; i don't think the same is true of grains, but i could be mistaken. we are obviously resilient and able to subsist and all kinds of crazy stuff, but as we now see, there is a high price to be paid for eating a diet high in grains, vegetable oils and sugar.

    Posted 2 years ago #
62. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @Jon re: raw -- i tried raw for a couple of meals. raw beef is okay, as long as it's a tender cut, but it doesn't compare to cooked, IMO; a little too subtle-tasting. raw eggs = i almost puked.

    Posted 2 years ago #
63. 

    Caine
    

    Novice
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 5

    At 45 I developed severe GERD. My sister bought The Paleo Diet book for me knowing what an evolutionist I was. Diet made sense and I was on it strictly for a year. Not only did my Gerd go away, I lost 20 lbs from a very active 170 lb 5'9" frame to 150, my blood pressure dropped from a respectable 126/70 to 115/62, my resting heart rate went from 62 to 51, tinitus in my ears decreased dramatically, eyesight improved (although the little spots in my field of vision didn't decrease as I hoped), before I retired I had a job where I stood alot on concrete floors, typed and had to remember long numbers-pain in my ankles and knees stopped, my typing skill increased dramatically with far fewer mistakes and number memory increased, pain in my right wrist from an old broken bone decreased, I no longer needed naps-and I loved to nap, no more allergies, finger joint pain gone, stronger finger nails.... almost every part of my body felt some improvement. I'm a believer.

    Posted 2 years ago #
64. 

    Q
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 346

    Ok, so I think I made a blind assumption the other day on a substitution on my (slow) climb to a paleo diet. I started eating two pieces of Hawaiian choco maca nuts instead of 4 pieces of bacon and a hard boiled egg in the morning (due to laziness and . It seemed the fat contents sorta matched on a quick look, along with calories and all that jazz...

    Is this a bad assumption? I did a quick google, but, figured I'd ask...

    Posted 2 years ago #
65. 

    Maus
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 505

    @Q
    Macadamia nut is probably OK for your fat and protein, but no omega 3's. Check this:
    http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

    My only reservation would be in the chocolate covering. Unless it is really high in cocoa fat (like really dark chocolate) it is probably loaded with sugar, which is something the Paleo orthodox would encourage us to avoid as avidly as grains.

    Posted 2 years ago #
66. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    blam (meat = good for environment)

    Posted 2 years ago #
67. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    Awesome news Zev!

    I am glad we have some smart intelligent people able to write something like this, AND get exposure on Time magazine for it!

    I have been following a modified Paleo Diet for the past month. Basically about a 50-70% reduction in the amount of grains I eat. Plus about a 50% increase in the amount of vegetables I consume...

    It is surprising easy to make the switch...

    I now eat salad for breakfast with a hard boiled egg, instead of cereal, occasionally Ill have oatmeal, pancakes, or waffles, but rarely.

    For lunch I used to eat sandwiches and chips all the time. Now half my lunch consists of a mixed nuts bag where I buy the individual nuts in bulk then combine them. I also eat fruit like apples and bananas, and occasionally eat beef jerky for lunch.

    For dinner I still eat a basic meat, vegetables, starch meal. However, I have replaced my typical starches (rice, noodles, etc.) with either more salad or another vegetable side.

    The results???

    The most important one for me is that I no longer have the afternoon lull around 3pm. My lunches were really killing me.

    I've lost some of my mid section fat and have a generally higher energy level.

    I allow myself to "cheat" maybe 2-3 times a week at most. Meaning I might go out to eat with friends and have some pasta or whatever. But overall this diet has been working really well for me...

    Posted 2 years ago #
68. 

    Kevin M
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 211

    Jeremy, my breakfast & lunch is currently what you were eating - cereal/oatmeal then a sandwich & chips/occasionally veggies when I had them at home. Thanks for posting your alternative, I'm going to try it out next week. Do you still eat sandwiches for the other half or is that where the fruit/beef jerky comes in?

    Posted 2 years ago #
69. 

    B
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Sep '10
    Posts: 165

    I have allowed Paleo to influence my diet. Eating less insulin-spiking foods, eating less during the day in general. I've also almost completely cut out grains - the only one I ever ate in any great quantity before was rice anyway.

    However, one thing I cannot seem to stomach is no legumes. There's just no parting with beans and lentils. Oh well, at least they're cheap!

    Posted 2 years ago #
70. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @B re: legumes, check out "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon for paleo-friendly ways to prepare legumes (soaking/fermenting).

    Posted 2 years ago #
71. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    @ Kevin - You have to let me know the results. So sandwiches equals bread, so I rarely eat sandwiches anymore, but the good thing is that a lot of restaurants are offering "bread-free sandwiches". Jimmy John's for instance does a JJ Unwich, which is basically a lettuce wrap. My girlfriend gets it all the time... http://www.jimmyjohns.com/menu/menu.aspx

    I tend to eat lunch out a lot more then I should because I am on the road all the time. So by packing an apple or banana, some mixed nuts, beef jerky, or whatever other things I can think of I save my health and my money. I get a ton of calories from my mixed nuts so I can easily go from breakfast to dinner just by eating those, but yes, the other half is a fruit/veggie/meat option or combo depending on your appetite and tastes.

    http://www.insightwriter.com/2010/10/31/eating-healthy-on-a-budget/

    I tend to eat beans in soups and I have recently started eating lentils. They are really good, but they do need soaked and cooked longer then most things to make them more Paleo friendly. I cook my lentils with chopped tomatoes, onions, garlic, and carrots for a really tasty side.

    Posted 2 years ago #
72. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @Jeremy Your diet sounds pretty low-fat for someone pursuing paleo, and possibly a little high in nuts (>1-2 oz./day). I eat 4-6 eggs cooked in a 2-3 TB of butter/coconut oil every morning, plus 2-3 TB of coconut milk or heavy cream in my coffee; that's just the tip of my fat iceberg. :)

    Posted 2 years ago #
73. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    @ Zev - Yes, I am not 100% following the Paleo, but I am simply making the best diet for me, and my diet comes closest to Paleo because I follow a lot of the philosophy of Paleo.

    As far as fat goes I started allowing more into my diet when I heard it helps maintain good brain function. But you should make sure you are getting good fatty acids.

    http://www.fi.edu/learn/brain/fats.html

    Also, there is a lot of fat in nuts. http://www.dietobio.com/dossiers/en/nuts/fats.html

    And I do eat fatty meats and fish quite often so I think I am ok on my fats.

    I also put hard boiled eggs on my salads.

    Im curious why you think Im eating too much nuts?

    Posted 2 years ago #
74. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @Jeremy "I got a ton of calories from mixed nuts." From this alone, it strikes me as too many nuts, since 1-2 oz. a day would only be a couple hundred calories; too much n-6-->inflammation.

    Posted 2 years ago #
75. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    @ Zev - I would say I get about 200-500 calories a day from nuts. I kind of use them as an appetite suppressant around lunchtime. Also, I do occasionally switch out nuts for some other meal during lunchtime. So I am not eating them every day of the week. As far as I can tell I have no inflammation from the amount of nuts I eat.

    Posted 2 years ago #
76. 

    Zev
    

    Master
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 437

    @Jeremy Here's something from Mark Sisson about nuts. 500 calories a day if you're eating a low 2,X00-calorie diet is quite a large portion made up of nuts. Inflammation isn't something you're necessarily going to notice symptoms of--the C-reactive protein blood test will let you know how you're doing inflammation-wise, and it correlates strongly with your long-term risk for diabetes, hypertension and heart disease.

    All nuts are not created equal, is another thing--macadamias have a much better n-6/n-3 profile than most.

    Posted 2 years ago #
77. 

    mike
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 26

    From personal experience - stay away from salted macadamia nuts..the salt interferes with the satiety response and causes me to eat way more than if I were eating plain unsalted.

    Too much salt in diet also causes fluid retention and some puffiness...one kind of "inflammation"!

    Posted 2 years ago #
78. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    @ Zev - Thanks for the info! Interesting stuff. The reasons I eat nuts are that: they are very portable, calorie dense, nutrient dense, and taste good. I also usually eat an apple and/or a banana with lunch.

    My question is... How can I mix things up a bit to satisfy those requirements and not eat so many nuts? Is beef jerky the answer?

    Posted 2 years ago #
79. 

    utility73
    

    Novice
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 6

    @jeremy

    An excellent fat based alternative to nuts as a snack would be Coconut chips.
    They should be cheaper than most nuts calorie wise and have a healthy fat profile (mostly saturated)

    At work I snack a slightly changing mix of nuts (mostly macadamia and some cashew), coconut chips and dark chocolate.

    On a more general note I am doing a high-fat diet inspired and somewhere between Paleo and WAPF.
    I am avoiding most grains (for simplicity reasons) but I thrive on (raw milk based) dairy. My current diet probalby most closely resembles the "Perfect Health Diet" by Paul Jaminet and his wife.

    Posted 2 years ago #
80. 

    jeremymday
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Oct '10
    Posts: 132

    I am just amazed by all the diets out there. Im starting to think it would be a great idea to contrast and compare the various diets in one book. While the individual authors probably won't like it, I can almost guarantee that it would be a #1 bestseller.

    Thoughts?

    Posted 2 years ago #

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