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Early Retirement Extreme Forums » Housing Questions

1. 

   DividendGuy
   

   Master
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 414

   In the constant search of "outside-the-box" ideas on housing I started looking into van dwelling, if for curiosity sake itself.

   I was actually disappointed on how expensive this type of living situation could be.

   Consider this example budget:

   http://www.faliaphotography.com/2008/11/my-cost-of-living.html

   You could nitpick that budget however you want, but it's pretty clear to me that it isn't extremely cheap to live that way. I am currently at a ~$1200/month budget with a $200 student loan payment. If you factor that out I'm at about $1k/month. I'm soon moving to a smaller, cheaper apartment. That will pare my expenses down to about $850. That's only a few hundred over this person living in a van (not factoring in my student loans).

   It just seems to me that this is not very cost effective for the sacrifices you'd be making. When you compare this to living in a cheap room for around $400-450 a month and not owning a car, it's not really any cheaper. With the van you have repairs, gas, insurance plus the cost of the van itself, which will come pretty close to the rent on a room.

   I guess I'm just amazed that people would choose this lifestyle when you could rent a room and ride a bike around town for pretty close to the same costs.

   I guess the same could *almost* be said for full-time RV'ers...except the level of sacrifice isn't nearly the same.

   Posted 1 year ago #
2. 

   C40
   

   Master
   Joined: Feb '11
   Posts: 578

   Good point. Also consider that:
   - A large portion of those expenses are gas. (which wouldn't necessarily need to be so. The other housing costs are only $110 per month)
   - The van dwelling would allow a nomadic lifestyle that some would consider appealing compared to living in one place... some people might not consider van dwelling a sacrifice vs an apartment.

   Posted 1 year ago #
3. 

   dragoncar
   

   Expert
   Joined: Oct '10
   Posts: 1,289

   True, but consider that the van dweller is always on the go, exploring the country. If exploration is the goal, van dwelling is probably one of the cheaper ways to do it (without straight-up camping).

   Posted 1 year ago #
4. 

   DividendGuy
   

   Master
   Joined: Dec '10
   Posts: 414

   I can understand the points on the cheap travel. Just the same, and something I've thought about, would be renting cheap rooms in different cities for 4-6 months at a time. I've seen cheap rooms in Chicago, San Fran, Portland, Kansas City and other places. You could travel and live cheaply, get to know a roommate or two and bicycle tour different cities all the time.

   I really tried to wrap my brain around the van dwelling concept. I'm a pretty open minded person. I just couldn't seem to find a dramatic cost savings benefit to outweigh the many disadvantages to that kind of living situation.

   Posted 1 year ago #
5. 

   dot_com_vet
   

   Master
   Joined: Jan '11
   Posts: 379

   I used to live in an "expensive" apartment. The premium over an average apartment was only $200. My commute time was literally 5 minutes. People were telling me I was throwing my money away all the time.

   Since it was close to work, I was able to make about $14k/year overtime.

   Posted 1 year ago #
6. 

   jzt83
   

   Journeyman
   Joined: Jun '11
   Posts: 148

   Agreed. Cooking while living in a van is a hassle. Most would resort to eating out often (which cost lots of $$$) and/or become malnourished.

   Posted 1 year ago #
7. 

   4444
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 57

   I DISAGREE. When you rent an apartment you are using leverage and have a fixed cost. For instance if you were a balance sheet your rent is essentially a current liability for the year. If you live in a van you are essentially de-leveraging your lifestyle.

   Posted 1 year ago #
8. 

   4444
   

   Apprentice
   Joined: Nov '10
   Posts: 57

   Also when you own a used van your rent is the "depreciation", whatever that figure might me. With rent you are blowing cash out the window and you own nothing. If you ever lose your job, and have no cash reserves, you are essentially homeless....

   Posted 1 year ago #
9. 

   dragoncar
   

   Expert
   Joined: Oct '10
   Posts: 1,289

   Also, If your van ever gets towed, and you have no cash reserves, you are essentially homeless.

   I wouldn't characterize renting as leverage, since you aren't borrowing anything. It's an expense, pure and simple.

   Posted 1 year ago #
10. 

    George the original one
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,943

    I think the costs bear up reasonably well. His housing cost, with fuel and repair fund, is $275/mo. This ignores the lost opportunity of the money he spent to acquire the van, so let's call that another $140/mo (an admittedly high estimate of $20k @ 7%, could easily be less), so as much as $415/mo for mobile living quarters.

    The main question in my mind is whether a lack of a mailing address is a feature or a drawback?

    Posted 1 year ago #
11. 

    UrbanHomesteader
    

    Novice
    Joined: Apr '11
    Posts: 2

    While I do find that living in a vehicle leads to eating out more, a person has much more control over how much they spend on housing. I.e. when you are signed up to rent a room for $300 a month, it might be a challenge to negotiate down that price. If you live in your van, you can choose to rent a permanent parking space (about $100 in my area), or just park on-street for no cost. You can avoid being towed by choosing your parking spot carefully, moving the vehicle regularly (can be pushed a block or two if the vehicle isn't running or you want to save gas), and monitoring the vehicle for notices from the city or meter maid. Seriously, you could get an old Ford Econoline for the cost of a months rent on a basic apartment. If you are able to do maintenance repairs yourself, the costs would definitely be lower than rent. On the other hand, living in a vehicle can suck depending on where you are parked.

    Posted 1 year ago #
12. 

    Mo
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 442

    @george, I argue that a portion of those costs should be allocated to transportation, rather than housing. Possibly not all of the $200/mo in fuel is used for mandatory repositionings. Also, of the $75 insurance and maintenance costs, most of that is probably related to transportation, rather than housing.

    A 1980s VW westfalia, I'll suggest costs $12k. If we go with 7% for opportunity cost, that's about $70/mo. If we say that 1/2 of the fuel, insurance, and maintenance costs are attributed to housing rather than transportation, I figure the housing costs are closer to $200/mo.

    Posted 1 year ago #
13. 

    Mo
    

    Master
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 442

    A while back I tried to figure out a theoretical minimum living expense for one person, in the US, provided that the person has to provide everything for himself-- no using the spouse's car, or getting free something off of a parent, or squatting on someone else's land and growing crops, also figuring in opp. costs, depreciation, etc...

    I think it's pretty hard to get much under $400/mo sustainably, long-term, for shelter, running hot water, electricity, food, transportation, communications, and some minimal amount of social/entertainment interaction (I believe that some degree of fun/interaction is essential for almost all people). To be honest, I haven't seen anyone not living in a van or RV post numbers under $500/mo while meeting these same criteria, has anyone else?

    (edit: okay, I hadn't factored in trying to live ultra-cheap in some place like Alaska with a state tax refund and free land)

    Posted 1 year ago #
14. 

    DividendGuy
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 414

    @MO

    I agree. I think anything less than $400 would be just about impossible. You can survive on less, by living in a tent and eating out of garbage dumps...but that isn't really living, and how sustainable is that? I could also go rob a bank and go to jail and live for free for the next 20 years.

    I think no matter how you slice her budget (transportation vs. housing), my point is that I wonder if living in a van is worth, let's say, a savings of $250/month--going by your figure of housing @ $200 a month vs. me renting a room for $450/mo.

    I think I would place enough value on a roof over my head, running water, an actual bathroom, a usable kitchen, entertainment space, a full bed, social interaction and having headroom when I get dressed to stretch for the extra $250/month.

    I think what I am wondering the most by starting this thread is this: I just wonder when you get to the point of "diminishing returns"...and is living in a van that point?

    Posted 1 year ago #
15. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 926

    I don't think that 250 is few money. Some people also like to live in very small spaces and adapt to that. Some have tried and find it very fun. On the other side I would prefer a plywood cabin (like Mater's) than a van, but that's just me. I don't know if that would be cheaper in your country. Of course, it depends on the place, as you have to buy, rent or borrow a lot to have your cabin. But the thing is, van dwelling may be perfect for some people, and just not acceptable for others. Also, everyone has a different notion of where is the point of diminishing returns. I would agree with you if the difference between having a real roof and living in a van would be say, 10 dollars. But then there is that other guy who would prefer the van even in this case. Here I've got a lot (250m2) with a small house (22m2) for a price that would get me only a used small trailer (6m2). When I want to sell, the house will be much easier to sell. But it was not easy to find this deal, and it may be near impossible in other places.

    Posted 1 year ago #
16. 

    rachels
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 156

    I like the idea of living in an outbuilding or temporary structure and then paying for house privileges at your camping/parking spot. We lived for 3 months earlier this year in our tent in the back yard of a house of radical types. Backyard folks paid $100/mo for access to the kitchen, fridge, shower, internet, living room, etc. I could still cook all our meals from scratch and we didn't have to pay for a gym membership to get clean. We also had a guy living in a VW bus and one in the shed. Granted, you have to find a household of open minded people to host this sort of situation, but if found it is golden. If I were to van dwell, I would try to set up something like this so that your gas and eating out costs can be $0.

    Posted 1 year ago #
17. 

    rachels
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Aug '10
    Posts: 156

    That said, I think for most of the country, the problem with van dwelling is climate control. It has been 105-110 in Texas this week. There is no way we are living in a tent/van/shed/ANYTHING without an AC. We've found a cheap ($400/mo split 2 ways) room to rent until it cools down. Our vandwelling friends from Texas have fled to Oregon until November.

    Posted 1 year ago #
18. 

    web_diva
    

    Novice
    Joined: Dec '11
    Posts: 28

    With vans and RVs, i worry about high wind, heavy rain/snow, hail and tornado situations. Many areas of the country get occasionally all of these...and some places get them frequently. I am considering a heavy motor home but these thinks lurk in the back of my mind as "cons"...

    In my area too, there are many towns with covenants against RVs and motor homes being parked in driveways and on streets and so i would have to go to a trailer park or RV park fulltime or nearly so. Having to use a laundrymat is a big tradeoff too.

    Posted 1 year ago #
19. 

    riparian
    

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 341

    I lived in a van for three years, and a bus before that. My housing expenses were very low. Less than 100/m for insurance and less for repairs. My travel expenses were higher because I made a complete circuit pr two of north america every year and never stayed in one place more than two weeks. By travelling and being flexible with my schedule, I was able to be in the right places at the right times to make more money than usual. I didn't have any trouble preparing cheap healthy food in the van.

    Posted 1 year ago #
20. 

    Bludger
    

    Novice
    Joined: Aug '11
    Posts: 15

    @ Riparian: I would like to hear more about living in a van and travelling the country. What sort of set up did you have? What sort of van? How did you manage things like showers etc?

    Posted 1 year ago #
21. 

    riparian
    

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 341

    Bludger, lucky you I wrote all about that on the Internet! If you go to http://www.ho bostr ipper.com (take out the spaces) there's link on the left that says "Everything You Need To Know To Live In A Van." :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
22. 

    ExpatERE
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 219

    Wow.... amazing what you can find with google. Searching for van living content and I end up back at my old hang out :-)

    I like the opposing view points. I like this in all facets of my life. I tend to get overly optimistic on the ideas I become interested in. It's good to find balance.

    I have to say that I tend to lean towards bigato's view here. There are other factors to consider than merely financial benefit. If van living was pursued in hopes of finding a way to cut expenses, then it probably is not the best course of action. There are some incoveniences that have to be weighed carefully before embarking on such a course of living.

    I think that because I've lived such a minimalist fashion for the last few years, living in a van doesn't seem so extreme. Plus I like the ability to have mobile living arrangements. I'm thinking seriously of pursuing this when I get back.

    Besides the inconvience of not having a bathroom, what else you got? Seriously, I want more negatives so that I know I'm considering everything.

    Posted 1 year ago #
23. 

    Hoplite
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 489

    @ExpatERE,
    If you want the negatives of living in a van (along with some good advice on avoiding or minimizing them), I strongly recommend the site Survival Guide to Homelessness:

    http://guide2homelessness.blogspot.com/

    The blog is dedicated to making homelessness (living in a car or van) as painless, comfortable and even enjoyable as possible, without glossing over problems or romanticizing. It's based on the author's personal experience of living long term in a car in place, i.e., not traveling. His expenses were around $3000 per year. I think that the worst negatives fall into the categories of hassles with authorities and hassles with criminals. He also addresses some of the social damage, analogous to what some on this forum complain about; lack of understanding or acceptance of a different lifestyle.

    Posted 1 year ago #
24. 

    jzt83
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 148

    Also consider your threshold level of comfort. If your the minority of people who is psychologically able to live in a car comfortable, then go for it. But you have to honestly consider if you're truly the type who can hack it. If you go too extreme, you could go crazy, become sick or worse.

    Posted 1 year ago #
25. 

    jennypenny
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 1,344

    You should also look at truckers blogs and boards. I think they give a better picture of life on the road at the spending level of ERE (as opposed to blogs about people in their $250K+ RVs).

    Posted 1 year ago #
26. 

    Hoplite
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 489

    @jzt83,
    Quite right about the personal fit; the blogger Mobile Homemaker devotes a number of posts to maintaining health, physical and psychological, with special attention to maintaining personal hygene and appearance. And he points out that decisions are sometimes irrevocable; you can't undo or unsee the things you experience living in a car.

    Crazy comes in different flavors; certainly one to avoid is going feral, sometimes referred to (inaptly in my opinion) as Diogenes Syndrome:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_syndrome

    Posted 1 year ago #
27. 

    Chad
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,006

    It's stuff like this that makes my soul sucking job sound fine. At some point ERE becomes "work" just like any other job.

    Posted 1 year ago #
28. 

    riparian
    

    Master
    Joined: Oct '11
    Posts: 341

    Negatives for me were getting woken up by the cops (rare), not being able to get laid in my own bed, not enough space to do yoga, boxed sine wave might have been hard on electronics, not being able to stand up. Some of that is lessened or eliminated in a bigger van. I lived in an astro for the gas mileage.

    Posted 1 year ago #
29. 

    jacob
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 3,303

    http://cheaprvliving.com/

    Also, there used to be (and may still be) a yahoo group called citycamping with a lot of inside tips.

    And then there's Spartan Student: http://www.kenilgunas.com/

    Posted 1 year ago #
30. 

    bigato
    

    Master
    Joined: Mar '11
    Posts: 926

    I did some bike travels on extended weekends. The worst part to me was when I was inside a city, wanting to poo and couldn't do it. I can do fine without peeing for a long time, I don't care much about days without a shower, but not being able to poo when I wanted to was the worst feeling.

    Posted 1 year ago #
31. 

    ExpatERE
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jul '11
    Posts: 219

    Thanks guys for sharing your thoughts on this, it has helped clarify some things for me. After reading this thread yesterday I sat down and really thought hard about my options. With the cons of van living I'm leaning more towards what the guy at http://www.simplify.net has done. Looks like he started with a larger camper van before upgrading to what he has now.

    Guess I need to investigate the RV living thread eh?

    What I'm farily certain of is not wanting to be tied down to housing. Mobile housing seems best suited for me at this juncture

    Posted 1 year ago #
32. 

    jzt83
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 148

    Get a 24 hr fitness gym membership and park nearby the gym, so you can poop and washup when needed. Also, having access to all the gyms nationally is convenient.

    Posted 1 year ago #
33. 

    jzt83
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Jun '11
    Posts: 148

    Have you thought about living in a Prius? Here's a great article about someone relaying their experience with living in a Prius:
    http://cheapgreenrvliving.com/priusliving.html

    Jesica Spaulding blogged about her experience living in a Prius for a year:
    http://www.ayearinacar.com/

    Posted 1 year ago #
34. 

    dhaines
    

    Novice
    Joined: May '12
    Posts: 3

    I live in a VW Westfalia and I am in Houston. Been doing it now for 10 months. Yes, my fuel costs are up but less then $100/mo more then what it was when I had my apt. There are no cheap places to rent when I work. Ive been looking and the ones that exists are far far away.
    I like the van but would rather have a cheap place near work.
    My favorite part is not having to pay bills and the feeling of freedom that accompanies it. All savings from vandwelling go directly to my portfolio.
    The worst part is having to move the van all the time. Find a parking spot to rent out and it will be the best lifestyle.

    http://www.project11k.com

    Posted 1 year ago #
35. 

    Hoplite
    

    Master
    Joined: Dec '10
    Posts: 489

    @dhaines,
    Thanks for that--great blog on your VW experience. But you would still prefer a cheap place near work?

    Posted 1 year ago #
36. 

    dhaines
    

    Novice
    Joined: May '12
    Posts: 3

    @Hoplite,
    Given the option between the van and a place that costs about as much as the van per month, I would chose the apt, but only if I didn't have a car and could bike everywhere. It is an either/or situation, low cost apt with biking and public transport or van dwelling.

    Since I dislike my job, I have no intention of giving up the van. It gives me a sense of freedom which I can only imagine is what is similar to being financially independent. Plus, I get to travel to interesting locations on weekends and stay for the entire time. A couple weeks back, I took a trip to Galveston beach and stayed from thursday night through sunday afternoon. The entire time I was parked within 50ft of the ocean.

    Posted 1 year ago #
37. 

    George the original one
    

    Expert
    Joined: Jul '10
    Posts: 1,943

    > It gives me a sense of freedom

    I get this, but if fuel prices double or quadruple, would you still have that sense of freedom?

    Posted 1 year ago #
38. 

    dhaines
    

    Novice
    Joined: May '12
    Posts: 3

    @George

    If fuel prices double or quadruple then I have worse things to worry about then my lost sense of freedom.

    It is why I said that I would take an apt with bike lifestyle over van life. Cars, vans, RV, etc are inherently expensive, if I stopped driving I would save a ton and be in better physical condition. However, to stop driving, it would require me to be comfortable with what I do for employment.

    Posted 1 year ago #
39. 

    Dezdura
    

    Novice
    Joined: Jun '12
    Posts: 21

    My answer to this is to "own" an RV pad in several places. The great part is if you meet friends they can use your pad.

    Posted 11 months ago #
40. 

    EMJ
    

    Journeyman
    Joined: Nov '10
    Posts: 171

    Mary is currently traveling the backroads from New Mexico to Alaska, writing and living out of a tiny Teardrop camper.

    http://theblondecoyote.com/

    Posted 11 months ago #

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