im 27 at the moment but have had the opinion since my early 20s that i would like to die around 60 and maybe even earlier.
i dont mean to be anti-old people but what fun is life around this age? i see what old people do, and id most likely commit suicide if i was living like that.
a good fun 20-30 years is fine with me.
LOL... at 60, most people haven't retired yet! Seriously, most people are fairly hale well into their 70s (and sometimes into their 80s) unless they sit on their butts.
Old age is what you make of it. You don't have to live like the other people your age now do, so why would you do so when you're older?
Check out this 88 year old man trying to set the record as the oldest Appalachian Trail thru-hiker: http://www.trailjournals.com/about.cfm?trailname=11863
He's already covered over 700 miles this year, and looks like he has a shot a finishing. I think he is having more fun in his 80s than I did in my 20s!
Having had a few family members make it into their 90s with their minds intact and decent health, I have to disagree that living a long time is necessarily unpleasant. For instance, my great-grandmother lived on the same island as the rest of my family, so we got together often. I drove her to church every weekend and she enjoyed getting dressed up and going to "society lady events" with the other old ladies (this is what people did for fun in the 1920s I guess). She took walks around the neighborhood with her little dog. DH's great-grandparents are both in their 90s and seem to be doing well. My grandmother is in her 60s and still does things like buy old houses and fix them up and run her own business. She also goes to the bar and has parties at her house. Just because you're old doesn't mean you have to play bingo and live in a nursing home (as long as your health holds out). The older folks I have known who seem to be happy and healthiest have younger family members they spend a lot of time with. Kids are good for something I guess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Rollino
this guy was a strongman and lived to the ripe old age of 104, supposedly 'still able to bend quarters with his teeth as of his 103rd birthday'
he died at the age of 104....of old age right? hell no!! he was hit by a car.
yes..age indeed is what you make of it...
however i understand that it is difficult to imagine yourself having fun decades from the present. in your teens..the mid 30s life usually doesn't seem fun..but when you hit mid 30s, life still is fun..but only your idea of fun has most likely changed by then. to a 30 year old..fun at 60 is probably near impossible to imagine..but again...
giving a few examples of complete outliers isnt a fair representation of what the 60+ crowd do. i know these people exist but they are extremely uncommon.
i spent a lot of time caring for my grandad in a nursing home in my late teens early 20s and i cannot imagine wanting to be alive at his age.
i guess i should also note that i am an adrenaline junkie, i spend the vast majority of my time engaged in extreme sport, snowboarding/mountain biking. people like me probably dont make it to old age anyhow.
I'm going to upload my consciousness into a robot brain and live forever.
> i spent a lot of time caring for my grandad
> in a nursing home in my late teens early 20s
> and i cannot imagine wanting to be alive at
> his age.
Nursing home time stinks. Do everything you can to stay out of them. Don't smoke, don't break bones, stay trim and stay active.
It is rare, though, for someone in their 60s to be in one. Even my dad didn't hit one until he was over 70 and he got there because he was a heavy smoker. The majority of people don't need a nursing home (or even assisted living) until they're over 80. You normally begin thinking and planning about assisted living around age 75. My mom, with diabetes & collapsed vertebra from osteoporosis & high blood pressure stayed out of assisted living until she was 87 by staying active.
@dragoncar - and here I thought I was the only one.
I don't think those are complete outliers. Maybe towards the end of these "examples" lives they might be, but the majority of older people seem to get old because they allow themselves to get old.
My 61 year old mother competes in senior and open track and field events, and in volleyball and basketball leagues. She broke both hear ankles 2 years ago and recovered as fast as any twenty year old I have ever known to keep playing at the same level. It's pretty simple why she can do this. She works out (P90X and light lifting) and eats half decent.
Yes, there are people with genetics that make them human tanks who live full lives too 100 without working out or eating well. There are also people with such crappy genetics they never get out of their 30's or people with genetic predispositions for bad conditions that will take them out of life in their 50's or 60's. However, the majority of people can probably lead full active lives into their late 70's if they just ate well and exercised.
Forever? (After all isn't that what a 3% SWR is for ;-)
I guess the real question for me is how many years of Wage Slave life = 1 year of FI Life and go from there.
I guess the numerical side of this is easy whether measured via savings rate and/or absolute free time (average wage slave works 2000 hrs). The qualitative aspects are harder to define (lower stress, BS, freedom to pursue other hobbies)
@webberchoked:
> giving a few examples of complete outliers isnt a fair
> representation of what the 60+ crowd do. i know these people
> exist but they are extremely uncommon.
how about:
giving a few examples of complete outliers (everyone ERE) isn't a fair representation of retirement. i know these people exist but they are extremely uncommon.
whilst the above statement is true, we all know there is nothing about ERE/FI that should make it possible for only a miniscule number of people to attain it..yet only a small number of the population will be ERE/FI. In this case a lack of ability is not the problem: it's the lack of motivation. Similarly, old age (60ish) isn't the problem for most people..lack of motivation is.
well..i agree that the examples were outliers..most people are certainly not going to be around to see their 104th birthday..but just about everyone can do just about everything they want in their 60s. you'll be slower maybe and even clumsier..but that's not such a big deal, is it? especially if you're having fun. if you're not seeing most 'old' people not doing anything (i'm not either), i think it's mostly because of the same reasons you don't see a lot of young people ERE.
"i guess i should also note that i am an adrenaline junkie, i spend the vast majority of my time engaged in extreme sport, snowboarding/mountain biking. people like me probably dont make it to old age anyhow."
I used to ski with my father in law. He was a member of the 10th mountain division during WW2. He was in his late 70's and many of his friends were in their 80's. They skied the hardest expert trails on the mountain all day and they were just regular guys who loved to ski.
Like you, I engaged in extreme sports when I was young and I never believed that I would live to see my 30th birthday. I just turned 58 and I have more endurance and strength than most of the people I know in their 20's.
If you eat and live like the average American, you will probably be in the kind of shape that would make life not worth living. The choice is yours.
It might also be a good time to start competing in something like chess for the inevitable downtime during recovery from extreme activities.
From a physical standpoint, you definitely have to put more effort in. In your teens and twenties, recovery times and hormone levels are so high you don't even need to worry about it. As you hit thirty and forty, you have to really start managing this to make sure you can physically recover from your previous workout in time for the next one. However, if you do, you can remain competitive with 20 year olds.
Another risk is that as you become older you become responsible for more things (that's the usual path anyway) and so the first time you have a serious crash on the black diamond slope or a bad landing in your helicopter, you realize that maybe there's too much at stake now.
These are the main two issues I hear from the older crowd (50-70 year olds) I know. It does mean that more motivation is required to maintain the effort.
There's an article in Men's Journal or Best Life (maybe even Outside - Obviously, I forget), which investigated professional athlete performance declines in their 30's and 40's. They noted that actual potential declines are so small they wouldn't prevent pro athletes from still competing at a professional level. What really stops them is motivation. They burnout from working at such a high level or think they are working hard when they really aren't. This is kind of in the same ballpark as what Jacob mentions.
60 years is *not* that old. My mother is 63, and she's perfectly active. I would consider her as healthy as a 40 year old, really. She's not athletic, but she never was.
Personally I'd be happy if I could make it to 80. I think that by the time you're 80, things are going downhill. After 80, I think quality of life generally gets pretty bad, unless you're very lucky.
Then again, my perspective as a 23-year-old will probably be different than my perspective if/when I'm 80 :).
I'm looking forward to, in my sitting years up in my 80's and 90's watching films, playing video games (maybe not the twitch-based ones), playing strategy card/board games, spending time on intellectual pursuits, socializing, reading/writing/listening to books/audiobooks, listening/writing music.
If I lose my mind that's no big deal either, since I have a generally pleasant disposition. I'll just be happily ignorant/confused all the time. That sounds alright too.
I don't want to be cheated out of my senior discount! I want to live as long as my money lasts. I hike with 60 and 70 year young retirees, I have trouble keeping up so I won't call them old.
"i know these people exist but they are extremely uncommon."
mm, they may be the minority but i don't think they're *extremely* uncommon.
my mom is in her late 60s and is very fit and active, very young in mind and spirit. i have no fears about being in my 60s - if i'm in as good a shape as she is, i'll be able to hike, kayak, play tennis, walk, travel, etc. - and i hope to be in even better shape!
one of my best friends is in his early 50s and excellent shape, seems the exact same as when he was 25. but i know plenty of other people in their 50s who seem more like 70. they're unfit wheezers who can barely make it from their car to the burger king table, they're chronically overweight, and they are allergic to new ideas and experiences.
many years ago oprah did a show on "real age" and had 20 people lined up across the stage, all various ages, from young good-looking people to old gray bent-over people .. and then they revealed everyone up there was exactly the same age. very scary. being at the right end of the bell curve is on you!
It's not about how long you live, it's about how you live. In Roses in Catalunya (Spain), there's a bar where every sunday (when it's market in Roses), they serve tapas with the drinks.
On that day, the bar is extremely busy. A lot of people go there.
In the kitchen, theres an old dude, who makes the tapas. He not only makes them, but brings them from the kitchen to the bar.
The awesome thing about it is that he had surgery on his knees and he's had a problem with his wrists and hip. The guy can't even walk properly, his knees are a little bent and he can't walk fast anymore.
But every sunday, his making and bringing tapas.
I respect that person for still being able to do it and not complaining!
Like I said, it's not about how long you live, it's how you live.
I want to die when it's time for me to die. Not sooner. But before I die, I want to have lived a good life. And that last thing is the only thing of the two that's on my mind.
A second for Nagerusu's comment. A story related by the author Don Aslett; the best strawberries in the farm country he grew up in were from a farm with no irrigation and a old paraplegic owner. He crawled through the rows, watering the stawberries by hand. I hope that the drive to do at least some good dies with me.
That said, I do have to say that many of the hale and hearty older folks are concealing things, sometimes keeping even terminal conditions from everyone. Sometimes to spare loved ones, and sometimes just for pride. After the public feats of age-defying derring-do, no one and I mean NO ONE will be allowed to see the recovery in the oxygen tent. Getting old shouldn't be feared, but it's no bowl of cherries.
those last two stories are so depressing and not a life id ever consider living. not being able to walk? wtf you're a cripple.
i guess a lot depends on ones current lifestyle also. id guess that a lot of these above examples of old people would have lived a boring earlier life anyway. (what id consider a boring life which isnt my current lifestle. grinding away working watching tv, etc just waiting to die)
> those last two stories are so depressing
lol..you could say that i guess.
those two guys may have been laden with debt (or whatever) and hence forced to work..you never know. i think if anything that's only an example of the ability of old people to contribute to society, whereas the point of contention here is whether it is possible to have a fun-life in old age and not whether it is still possible to remain useful ( being useful sure helps towards happiness and self-worth, but in and of itself cannot account for a fulfilling old-life IMHO)
Thank you, Slacker & web. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who thought those stories of old people "living" their lives were rather not good examples. If they were doing it because they wanted to then they are decent examples, but if they were doing the work because they had to...well, then, they aren't really living their own lives.
@Chad: the old man I was talking about, was helping in the bar, but the bar belongs to his son. It's a family bussiness and he looked happy enough to be helping out.
Don't try to think to much about the future. Live now. And when you get old, you'll probably appreciate other things and be happy in different ways. What may look boring to you now, might not look boring many years later. You don't know what the future bring for you, so don't worry about it now... ;)
Sorry guys, if all you got was the blues that's my error, which I regret. On the bright side, none of that has to be you :)
I still think though, it just does no good to give up in advance.
@Webberchoked; a better example is a former boss who was (is) an adreneline junkie. He chartered helicopter skiing trips in the 1960s when no one knew such things existed. Last time I saw him, late in his 60s after mandatory retirement, he was on his way to another ski adventure, complaining that people thought he was going to play more golf (he did for business), which was way too tame and boring. He'd had more than his share of bad accidents too, nothing seemed to slow him down. Never gained or lost more than a few pounds though he could eat and drink enough to kill 10 people. You just never know.
See, here's the thing, when your 27 and able to ski double-black diamonds with elan for days straight, then the prospect of playing Scrabble with the young folks at 60 seems like a fate worse than death. But when you reach 50, even if you can still ski without killing yourself, you'd really much rather play Scrabble. It is genuinely preferable. And you want to be able to do it until you're 90 or older. Aging is all about adapting and those who are resilient age the most gracefully.
@webberchoked
My guess is that you won't be so angst-filled at 55.
People on my mother's side live/lived until mid-90s. People on my father's side until their mid-60s. I have the endomorphic features of my mother's kin, so I hope I get similar longevity. I like @MikeBOS take on end of life though: happy derrangement with a side of pistachio pudding.
Forever. :D
I agree about the quality of life being important. I've had 2 grandparents (paternal grandfather and maternal grandmother) make it to 90. Grandad played golf and bowls and did a lot of gardening and painting and was very active in his local community. I would be happy to live to 90+ with that quality of life. My Gran is still around but has dementia and has gone downhill rapidly since her mid 80s. Dementia/ alzheimers terrifies me more than other end-of-life scenarios.
@dragoncar & Mr Overlord - That is my boyfriend's plan! :-) I'm not sure it appeals to me though.
@Maus
Make it tapioca for me!
I am 66.5 years old and have no desire to check out of the net.
I wish to be alive as long as I can function per usual, and experience life as I always have.
I have kept myself physically fit, so health issues are not a problem. I eat right and exercise and try my best to take care of myself. I am able to still do about anything I have in the past, maybe a little slower and more carefully. I am quite passionate about doing the things that interest me.
About the only thing I can say I have lost, by being my current age, is patience. This may be just a symptom of having already heard the BS for so long, it becomes too difficult to keep on listening to it. I hope that statement makes sense, it was the best way I knew to put it.
I am retired and I don't have to have a job making money. I can and have opted out of the work a day world, where one gets up and treads off to some kind of employment, in order to pay for roof/food. I am thankful I am not in that situation.
I do have several things on tap that occupy my time pretty fully, and that is what I consider to be one of the most important things of retirement. If you fail to use your muscles, you lose them, and if you fail to use your mental capacity you can also lose that. I look for challenges, even if it were something broken that I have to figure out how to repair. Think about that. You then need to explore the object or mission in question. You need to understand how it works, and why it currently needs attention. This causes you to function both physically and mentally, and when the object/thing/situation is back as it should be, and you did it, then you feel rewarded. This keeps you in tune and in many cases, it keeps you updated on various subjects.
Now I could simply get out of bed and sit by the window. If my water heater goes out, I have the funds to call for a new one, and have it installed. I also now have the time to drive somewhere, load up a new heater, and install it myself, saving a labor bill from a plumber. Were the installation strange to me, I could research how to install it, etc. This keeps you driving your train. A while back, I noticed my 76 year old neighbor working on his mower. He had it all jacked up and was pulling the deck to install new blades and a belt. He was slower than a 30 year old, but very deliberate and careful. He finished the job by asking me to hold one side of the deck while he attached the bolts.
Age is not important, it's how one is mentally prepared (at any age).
from forbes:
"[L]ong distance swimmer Diana Nyad (age 61) is going to attempt a 103 mile long distance swim from Cuba to Key West Florida — the same swim she attempted 32 years ago. That is an amazing feat to attempt — even just the training in and of itself — for anyone much less someone in their early 60’s. Diana is quoted as saying she has no idea how old she is and doesn’t feel different in any way."
Check out at 60? Way too young!
I just spent the weekend with a bunch of hikers, many over 60 years old. They still hike, run, raft the Grand Canyon, enjoy the outdoors, travel all over the world, some work at jobs, some are retired. They are slower than they used to be or have aches and pains from all their activities, but they're not just waiting to die by any means. We spent the weekend partying, drinking, hiking and camping out, sleeping either in pickups with campershells (for they luxury-minded) or in backpacking tents (the rest of us).
I'm 46 and hope to stay active and in the outdoors until I die. With any luck, I'll die being eaten by a mountain lion out in the wilderness rather than with tubes in a nursing home.
If you take care of yourself, not only will you live longer, but you'll feel a lot better even as you age. Some 80 or 90 year olds are out and active as ever, while some 50 year olds are morbidly obese, diabetic and in constant pain due to their weight on their joints. It mostly depends how you take care of yourself.
@Webberchoked: For being an extreme sports guy, you ane an extreme wussy! Waaah, wtf, be a cripple, can't walk so I'll off myself, waaah!
I am disabled from birth and was an All American athlete in Freesyle wrestling at the national level when I was younger and another buddy of mine with no legs and no arms took 4th at nationals in the 15lb weightclass against totally able bodied people! Now, there are also the paralympics if you are into competing against other disabled people as well. My point is, don't be such a whinny wuss! If you are truly into extreme sports, then not being able to walk should merely be an additional challenge for you to overcome to really get that adrenaline pumping! Toughen up and quit whinning! Sheesh! I unapologetically say, I have been through a lot in my life, lots of severe illness and challenges but still love life and love to live as much as ever and so people who belittle the disabled or want to die just because they face difficulties are just totally annoying to me!
Hahahha, my buddy was in the 105lb weightclass, not the 15lb weightclass! Actually it is a little closer to 105.5 I think because it is converted from KG since it is an international sport, it is denominated in the metric killograms.
well im sorry that you're disabled blah but you have never known life any different (ie ignoance is bliss).
going from a healthy able bodied person to a cripple = death for me.
webberchoked, if an adrenaline rush is the only thing in your life that makes your life worth living, then you are an adrenaline junkie which is no better than any other kind of junkie and you are already crippled.
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