http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ --- for those on the fast track to financial independence en Tue, 21 May 2013 09:52:51 +0000 http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-51174 Thu, 16 May 2013 22:39:05 +0000 Andy H 51174@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I'm getting April's numbers up much earlier than I did last month. I'll consider that progress.</p> <p>I'm 95% decided that I'm going to go for a long hike on the AT so this will probably be my last month with good numbers for a while. My numbers for May should still at least be ok but after that I likely won't be saving any money at all for a couple of months and might even have a negative savings rate. I'm hoping I will have enough online income to cover my expenses while I'm hiking the Appalachian Trail but based on my current numbers that seems unlikely. I'll update my hiking plans next month.</p> <p>Here are my numbers for April.</p> <p>Expenses</p> <p>Household $495.64<br /> Entertainment $76.97<br /> Transportation $179.76<br /> Food $138.57<br /> Debt $5.00<br /> Phone $26.81<br /> Health $120.97<br /> Electric $16.10<br /> Internet $15.96</p> <p>Total $1075.78 </p> <p>Income</p> <p>Online Income $392.75<br /> Interest $1.15<br /> Dividends $35.16<br /> Cash Back $112.66<br /> Class Action $49.10<br /> Jobs $3224.98</p> <p>Total $3815.80</p> <p>It was a pretty good month. I managed to put $2000 in savings for a savings rate of 52.41%. My SWR went down to 49.50% from 54.50% and I now have 24.24 months of living expenses in savings. </p> <p>It has been nice seeing these numbers improve so quickly and I don't like the idea of my progress stalling or even going backwards while I'm hiking. On the other hand, my current job will be cutting my hours next month which would mean I'd have to find a new job. My tax job will still be available in January. If I'm able to hike relatively cheaply I can at least not go backwards on my savings. If I got really good at lowering my expenses I could just work my tax job each year and take the rest of the year off as a form of semi-retirement. That would mean it would take me a lot longer to actually be financially independent though. For now, I'm just going to go on my hike and see how it goes. I usually get tired of hiking after three or four weeks so this hike might not have much impact on my financial situation after all. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-50120 Tue, 30 Apr 2013 23:33:40 +0000 Andy H 50120@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I'm finally posting March's numbers. Since I've procrastinated on these numbers so long I might have April's number up in just a few more days. </p> <p>March was my last full month of working the tax job. My last day was April 16. When the tax job ended I picked up another shift at my part-time job so I'm still working 35 hours a week. Since I get to sleep at my part-time job I have lots of free time. I thought I would start getting a lot done when my tax job ended but I've been very lazy so far. I need to be more productive in May or I might as well get another job.</p> <p>My apartment lease ends June 30 and I'm thinking about going on a long hike on the Appalachian Trail at that time. I've done about half the trail so far in section hikes. I like hiking but usually get bored with it after a couple weeks. I'd most likely have to quit my part-time job to go hiking. I'm not sure if I want to do that since it is a pretty good situation. Not many jobs pay you to sleep. It doesn't pay much but it does cover my basic bills. I need to take better advantage of the free time my part-time job allows me to have. I need to use the free time to write a book and get in shape rather than mindlessly surf the web and eat junk food.</p> <p>Anyway, here are the numbers for March.</p> <p>Online Income $335.76<br /> Interest $0.12<br /> Dividends $23.31<br /> Cash Back $28.07<br /> Mystery Shopping $42.00<br /> Jobs $3505.93</p> <p>Total Income $3935.19</p> <p>Household $378.73<br /> Entertainment $56.68<br /> Transportation $181.06<br /> Food $169.15<br /> Debt $15.33<br /> Phone $26.81<br /> Health $120.97<br /> Electric $16.10<br /> Internet $15.96</p> <p>Total $980.89</p> <p>It was a pretty good month for income and expenses. I sold my van and paid off the credit card I used to purchase my current car so I no longer have any consumer debt. I managed to save $2350 for a 59.71% savings rate. My SWR is now 54.50% and I have 22 months of living expenses saved. </p> <p>April will also be a decent month for saving but it is going to be much harder in May. The tax job was providing the majority of my income and I'm not getting another job to replace it so it will be difficult to save much money. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-47131 Mon, 18 Mar 2013 03:56:01 +0000 Andy H 47131@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I'm finally getting around to posting February's numbers. It was a very good month. I managed to save 75.5% of my income and bring my SWR down to 62.5%. After years of not making much money, my current income seems like a lot and I'm finding it easy to save money. My job ends when tax season ends though. It will be a lot harder to save money after that. </p> <p>March isn't going to be too good though. I didn't pay any estimated taxes for my online business last year and ended up owing $1500 when I did my tax return. </p> <p>Here is a breakdown of my income for February.</p> <p>Online Income $889.67<br /> Interest $0.71<br /> Dividends $18.56<br /> Cash Back $106.13<br /> Mystery Shopping $7.50<br /> Medical Study $350<br /> Jobs $3127.34</p> <p>Total $4499.91</p> <p>Here is a breakdown of my expenses for February.</p> <p>Household $372.00<br /> Entertainment $70.81<br /> Transportation $149.43<br /> Food $94.22<br /> Debt $5.00<br /> Phone $26.81<br /> Health $88.56<br /> Electric $14.96<br /> Internet $64.12</p> <p>Total $885.91 </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-45424 Sat, 23 Feb 2013 03:02:34 +0000 Andy H 45424@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I do like to have a variety of income streams so I'm not too dependent on one. Although my job is by far the biggest source of income right now.</p> <p>Some of the cash back is from credit cards. Most of it is from cash back shopping sites. The cash back I get is mostly from my referrals' purchases since I don't do much shopping myself. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-45402 Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:58:23 +0000 wastelandwaltz 45402@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>You must be quite a resourceful person to have such a variety of income streams. I must check out your blog to get your take on online income.</p> <p>Presumably the cash back related to a credit card? </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-45392 Fri, 22 Feb 2013 05:26:13 +0000 Andy H 45392@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>January was a good month. My income was $2694.84 and my expenses were $822.34. I managed to save $1500 for a savings rate of 55.67% and reduced my SWR to 80.47%. </p> <p>Although it was a good month it isn't nearly good enough to allow me to retire in 5 years. When putting my numbers into the early retirement calculator at networthify.com the result was 15 years to retirement. I'd be 60 then, which would hardly count as early retirement at all. February will be a better month but I will need to make some changes if I want to retire at 50.</p> <p>Semi-retirement is an option. Just working my tax job each year and taking the rest of the year off wouldn't be too bad. The thread on Guatemala reminded me of the time I spent living there and how cheap it was. I'm thinking of living there again later this year. I should be able to keep my expenses down low enough that I could live on just my blogging income.</p> <p>January Expenses<br /> Household $407.92<br /> Entertainment $25.80<br /> Transportation $73.02<br /> Food $149.13<br /> Debt $5.00<br /> Phone $26.81<br /> Health $119.92<br /> Electric $14.74</p> <p>Total $822.34</p> <p>January Income<br /> Online Income $350.51<br /> Interest $0.40<br /> Dividends $6.57<br /> Cash Back $60.34<br /> Mystery Shopping $25<br /> Jobs $2252.02</p> <p>Total $2694.84 </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-43526 Wed, 16 Jan 2013 02:34:09 +0000 Andy H 43526@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Since January is halfway over it is past time to get my December numbers up.</p> <p>Here is a breakdown of my expenses for December.</p> <p>Household $332.35<br /> Entertainment $104<br /> Transportation $826.79<br /> Food $168.79<br /> Debt $5.00<br /> Phone $26.81<br /> Health $117.25</p> <p>Total $1580.99</p> <p>Here is a breakdown of my income for December.</p> <p>Online Income $707.96<br /> Interest $0.09<br /> Dividends $55.89<br /> Cash Back $97.57<br /> Mystery Shopping $37.50<br /> Jobs $769.64</p> <p>Total $1668.65</p> <p>It wasn't a good month. My expenses were high due to having to pay licensing and sales tax on my new car and having to pay 6 months liability insurance on two vehicles.</p> <p>I didn't make much money because I was only working part-time at a low paying job for most of the month.</p> <p>I only managed to put $65 in savings in December. My SWR actually went up to 104.5%.</p> <p>Things will be much better in January. My expenses should be much lower(they are much lower so far this month). My goal is to keep my expenses under $1000 per month.</p> <p>My income will be much higher since I have started a new full-time job that pays over twice as much per hour as my part-time job. I expect to save at least 50% of my income in January. If I manage to sell my van then that savings rate will be much higher. </p> <p>December kinda sucked but I knew it would. January will be a much better month. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-42191 Thu, 13 Dec 2012 01:27:42 +0000 Andy H 42191@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>The online income is mostly income from my blogs. It is only slightly passive since the income would decrease rapidly if I stopped updating my blogs. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-42161 Wed, 12 Dec 2012 05:25:57 +0000 mds 42161@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Andy, I'm curious what your "Online income" line item represents? Is it passive? </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-42146 Wed, 12 Dec 2012 01:23:43 +0000 Andy H 42146@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>November Numbers</p> <p>November Income</p> <p>Online Income $467.96<br /> Interest $0.81<br /> Dividends $20.31<br /> Cash Back $64.36<br /> Mystery Shopping $61<br /> Jobs $2106.65<br /> Credit Card Bonus $150</p> <p>Total $2871.09</p> <p>November Expenses<br /> Household $179.36<br /> Entertainment $88.71<br /> Transportation $595.33<br /> Food $101.36<br /> Debt $5.00<br /> Phone $26.81<br /> Health $117.25</p> <p>Total $1113.82</p> <p>I had a surplus of $1757.27 for the month. None of that surplus was saved since I used it to buy a new car. A whopping $571 of my transportation expense was for gasoline. My van only gets about 16-18mpg, that would be ok if I were still living in it and I wasn't driving so much. Since I'm not living in it and driving 2-3,000 miles a month I needed a car with better gas mileage. I ended up getting a Focus which has been getting about 30mpg so far. I'm trying to sell my van and once it is sold that money will go in my savings.</p> <p>My housing expense will go up since I was staying at my mom's house and just paying her utilities for rent. My apartment is cheap though and I will be driving much less so my housing will still be less than what my transportation expense was.</p> <p>The big change for December is that I quit my job. I had a job as an attorney making $12 an hour. The idea was to gain some experience as an attorney. I did learn some things at that job and my boss was incredibly nice, but I decided the commute between Kansas City and SW MO combined with the relatively low pay made the job not worth it.</p> <p>Since moving to KC this month I've managed to get two new jobs. One paying $15 an hour and the other paying $20 an hour. That probably doesn't sound like much to most of you, but it is a lot more than I'm used to making. Both of the jobs won't start until next month and I may not be allowed to work both of them. I will still be keeping my part-time job so I'll have at least two jobs. I get paid to sleep at the part-time job so I want to keep that job. </p> <p>I've calculated my SWR as 86.22%. I arrived at that figure by taking my 12 month trailing expenses divided by the amount of my investments. If that is not the correct way to determine SWR, please let me know. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-42122 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:32:33 +0000 abzu 42122@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <blockquote><p>For those interested, here is a book on the history of debt: "Debt: The First 5000 years" by David Graeber (2012).<br /> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1353103531&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=debt+the+first+5000+years" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1353103531&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=debt+the+first+5000+years</a></p></blockquote> <p>I just finished reading that book. I don't agree with everything he says but it was very interesting. He describes the invention of money starting with social systems of credit and then turning into coinage via militarization, which leads to debt and slavery. He also discusses various ages of history and the interactions between different philosophical, political, and economic systems. Some of these allow more for living without money, and some allow for accumulated capital to create profits (highly relevant to ERE). He closes by saying that we are at the turning point where one economic system is ending and a new one will shortly take its place.</p> <p>Has anyone else read the book? </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-41722 Sat, 01 Dec 2012 01:14:46 +0000 irukandjisting 41722@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>It's an easy read .... </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-41705 Fri, 30 Nov 2012 22:13:11 +0000 Andy H 41705@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I started my blog in February 2007 and I think you started yours in November or December. I remember that I discovered your blog a month or so after you started it. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-41650 Fri, 30 Nov 2012 02:46:31 +0000 jacob 41650@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Cool, I think our blogs are about equally old? I think your blog was one of the first ones I started reading. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3030#post-41649 Fri, 30 Nov 2012 02:45:22 +0000 Andy H 41649@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I'm starting this journal to track my progress towards early retirement. I'm 45 years old so it won't be extreme early retirement. My plan is to retire in 5 years. If I keep going like I have though I won't be able to retire until 67 when I could get Social Security, assuming it is still be around. </p> <p>I have done pretty well at keeping my expenses low. I'll post my November expenses next week. I've been tracking my income and expenses for years on my blog TightFistedMiser.com if you want to see what they are.</p> <p>I haven't done well at making money or saving money. Those are the two things I'm going to change.</p> <p>Right now I have about $14,000 in savings which is a little over one year of expenses. If I'm going to retire in 5 years I need to increase my income, decrease my expenses, and start saving like crazy. </p> <p>I will post November's income and expenses here so you can see how I'm doing now. I'll then update my income, expenses, and savings monthly so we can see how I'm progressing. </p> <p>If there is any information you would like me to share let me know. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-41077 Wed, 21 Nov 2012 15:26:25 +0000 Myakka 41077@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>The system we depend on for all these fancy things isn't dependable.</p> <p>The ERE solution is to depend on yourself. I have alot of room for growth there.</p> <p>But there are also times when you run into situations that require more than the resources you have available to you -- situations you can't always avoid.</p> <p>Jacob has run into one of these with the negative personal attacks aimed at him on other forums. </p> <p>The history of social movements that have sought to reform the system here in the USA is replete with examples of this. Two of those movements were Communism (1930s -- blow back in the 1950s), and Anarchism (which all I know about it is that my greatgrandfather's naturalization papers in 1908 included an oath that he was not one of them).</p> <p>The system seems to be well defended against attempts to change it.</p> <p>That doesn't stop any of us from making better personal choices; it does mean that the more success ERE becomes, the more harsh the attempts to derail and demonize us will be. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40970 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 04:07:50 +0000 Haplo 40970@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <blockquote><p>So long as the capitalist system we are working in is corrupt we all are in danger of getting shafted whenever we try to do anything in it we are not fully informed on. AND with the complexity of everything from cars to A/C to financial instruments it is very easy to be uninformed about some of the things we deal with on a routine basis.</p></blockquote> <p>I think that's true whether the system is corrupt or not. It doesn't matter what you're doing, if you don't know what you're doing you're likely to screw it up. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40966 Tue, 20 Nov 2012 03:44:53 +0000 Dragline 40966@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>The subject of the original post -- and several other interesting things -- are discussed in today's episode of Capital Account with guest Steve Keen: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGqnu5RA-E&amp;feature=g-all-u" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGqnu5RA-E&amp;feature=g-all-u</a> </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40947 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 21:36:52 +0000 Myakka 40947@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I found the BF quote so interesting that I have copied and pasted it into my NonViolent Communication group. Some of the basic ideas in NVC are not criticizing other people because that tends to put up a wall that prevents them from hearing you (because they are too busy defending themselves), and not Demanding others do as you think they should (the right to make choices for ourselves is a basic need which we are usually willing to fight to protect).</p> <p>My understanding of the home loans is that were made to people without the resources to know they were getting shafted. (Most people can't do math and legalese is even harder for people who don't read particularly well to being with.) IMO, a much more effective advocacy scheme would be to create a group of people both knowledgable and reputable to act to help keep such people from making poor decisions in the first place.</p> <p>So long as the capitalist system we are working in is corrupt we all are in danger of getting shafted whenever we try to do anything in it we are not fully informed on. AND with the complexity of everything from cars to A/C to financial instruments it is very easy to be uninformed about some of the things we deal with on a routine basis. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40944 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 20:07:17 +0000 dragoncar 40944@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>What's all this then? I go away for two days and suddenly we're discussing the philosophy of persuasive writing? </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40926 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:06:31 +0000 Felix 40926@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>One problem of argumentation online in general is that different basic assumptions clash, people talk past each other. This is even worse once complex issues come into play or practically unsolvable ones, in religious/moral debates. The forum format is probably the worst for such discussions. It's often beating one another with walls of unrelated text. Chat rooms work way better as they allow a real conversation and allow sorting out where people are coming from early on in the discussion.</p> <p>And yet I keep making the mistake myself ... hrmnf ...</p> <p>Given that I've been involved in derailing this thread, here's a link to put it back on track:</p> <p><a href="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/11/occupy-wall-streets-debt-jubilee-a-gimmick-with-tax-risk.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/11/occupy-wall-streets-debt-jubilee-a-gimmick-with-tax-risk.html</a></p> <p>It's an analysis of the merits of the whole thing and the risks attached and it provides some detail on some of the arguments already mentioned like tax problems, the size of the market and supporting the whole debt collection racket. It also discusses possible alternatives to the current approach. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40922 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 03:41:29 +0000 secretwealth 40922@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Great post, bigato--I really do think the urge to be right is counterproductive. The times I've learned the most was when I was wrong. I dislike being right, actually--then I'm teaching someone else (for free, no less), instead of learning and adding value to myself as a person.</p> <p>One thing, though--that study was done in the early 2000's, so it would've been about Gen Xers and earlier. It was a diachronic study, too--I think it went back to the 1960's. Back when I taught, I did find Yers were less argumentative and confident of their opinions than Xers (and surely Boomers, if the student riots of the late sixties are anything to go by). At least in class. Then they vent their aggressions on Reddit, 4chan, and other nether regions of the Internet. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40917 Mon, 19 Nov 2012 02:11:09 +0000 bigato 40917@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Just stopping to speak as an authority when we are just copying from the internet helps a lot. Making learning more important than winning the argument does wonders. Making it clear that we are speaking out from opinion or personal experience when it is the case is great. Stating theories as just theories instead of absolute truths is smart. If something is complex enough, it's also good to accept that we aren't very likely to reach a consensus merely arguing in an internet forum format. Real research and experimentation is so much more than what we can readily find via google! When all we have are theories our imagination can go wild. Being grounded to reality via experimentations and history is essential to keep it sane. Reality is the necessary brake to focus and slow down imagination to useful levels.</p> <p>Being less attached to our internet image is a good tip. Having a life also helps! :-)</p> <p>Interesting secretwealth, try to remember what study was that! I have also a feeling that it is something characteristic from the generation y, who are being raised with too much internet and too little touch with reality. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40904 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:42:20 +0000 secretwealth 40904@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>@jacob I think part of the problem is that Americans are trained from a very young age to debate instead of to discuss. There's an important qualitative difference. Even in 4th and 5th grades, many kids in America are put in mock-debates, taught how to make argumentative essays, and how argumentation works.</p> <p>This is good and bad, of course, and I'm not about to debate the virtues of a debating culture. But as a cultural phenomenon, it's pretty clear that Americans tend to stick to their guns, resort to insults, and viciously fight for their corner because that's how they've been trained to think and act.</p> <p>Some other cultures have a similarly argumentative streak, but its causes are different and its manifestation is different. For example, China. The vicious public demonstrates/riots against the Japanese last year was really the result of post-imperialistic insecurity--a fear that the Japanese can and will strike again, no matter how founded that idea may be. You see this all over nations formerly conquered or invaded by the Japanese (with the partial exception of Taiwan, since they have bigger fish to fry).</p> <p>I had to generalize, but I've found northern Europeans don't stick to their talking points as steadfastly as Americans, and I wonder if a mix of post-imperialism sensitivity and a need to compromise and work together after the atrocities of WWII created a very different debate culture.</p> <p>I've actually read a Ph.D. thesis on this, but damned if I can remember what it's called let alone find it online. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40900 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 16:36:06 +0000 jacob 40900@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I agree with (or at least try to) the Franklin approach suggested by Dragline. </p> <p>Somehow the structure of this discussion seems very similar to investing/efficient market theory discussions with it's endless arguing of how excess returns should be attributed to skill and/or luck respectively. How much of the random factor is actually really random---is it more random to some people (uninformed investors?) than others (informed investors). And how can you tell. </p> <p>Similarly here, replace investment returns with personal responsibility---to which degree are events random? Are there different kinds of random to different kinds of people. Can some people see more signal in the noise due to natural talents or temperaments or effort? If so, to which degree should they be rewarded? To which degree must failures serve as educational example of others as to how not to behave.</p> <p>My point is ... seeing as it's nigh impossible to settle the investment debate, it's equally impossible to settle this one for the same reasons. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40885 Sun, 18 Nov 2012 01:34:09 +0000 Haplo 40885@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Comparing AE to MMT was actually one of the hardest tests of understanding Human Action for me. Figuring out the problems in MMT via thought experiment requires some serious mental backflips, and they certainly do make a convincing argument.</p> <p>Either way, I never signed up to be an AE salesman. Dissecting any single argument would take an essay, and I'm not writing an essay each to argue against multiple people. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40878 Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:57:40 +0000 Felix 40878@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>"Judging an argument by the arguer is called "argumentum ad hominem", and is a logical fallacy."</p> <p>:-) You mean like this?</p> <p>"It's obvious that your entire knowledge of economics comes from a high school economics class, so what qualifies you to argue about what a free market is or isn't, or how a market works?"</p> <p>All I said was that this mode of discussion annoys me and is futile so I'd rather call it quits and agree to disagree. No ad hominem fallacy there. There's a crucial difference between "You're wrong because you're stupid and/or uneducated." and "Your argumentation style is annoying me so I don't want to play anymore." The difference being that one of them is an example of a logical fallacy and the other isn't. :-D</p> <p>Given the general criticism of your argumentation style in this thread (and others, apparently), you're not in a position to lecture on the rules of proper discussion. ;-)</p> <p>See, THAT was an ad hominem argument. Learn the difference. ;-)</p> <p>But to answer your question, one aspect about austrian economics I disagree with is its theory of what money is and how it functions. I'm more of a chartalist in this regard, even though they seem too optimistic in estimating the value of purely monetary operations. And this pretty much makes my position on economic problems incompatible with most austrian-based suggestions. We are simply too far apart to find some common ground here. </p> <p>So, again, take care. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40870 Sat, 17 Nov 2012 19:12:29 +0000 Haplo 40870@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <blockquote><p>I just don't agree with it and there are many different economic schools each with their strong and weak points. I usually like a strong back-and-forth on such issues and usually find it a great way to test the strength of different arguments on the different viewpoints on an issue (especially a complex one like economics - I agree with you here on the complexity of the whole thing) and have had many similar discussion with people with similar opinions on the role of the government (shit, I've been one of them myself for the better part of 5 years), but it doesn't really work like this, with insults and such. Sorry for upsetting you. Take care.</p></blockquote> <p>Judging an argument by the arguer is called "argumentum ad hominem", and is a logical fallacy.</p> <p>For that matter I've spent most of this thread arguing against things I haven't said, or against emotional sob stories and imaginary problems that the government supposedly solves. Instead of discussing actual solutions to actual problems I get to have a one sided argument where I sound like a bad Peter Schiff speech. It gets to be tedious and irritating extremely quickly.</p> <p>I'm not arguing anymore because I see no point to it, but I am curious to know what it is you disagree with about austrian economics. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40866 Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:24:51 +0000 Felix 40866@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>@Haplo: I'm quite familiar with Austrian economics, thank you very much. I just don't agree with it and there are many different economic schools each with their strong and weak points. I usually like a strong back-and-forth on such issues and usually find it a great way to test the strength of different arguments on the different viewpoints on an issue (especially a complex one like economics - I agree with you here on the complexity of the whole thing) and have had many similar discussion with people with similar opinions on the role of the government (shit, I've been one of them myself for the better part of 5 years), but it doesn't really work like this, with insults and such. Sorry for upsetting you. Take care. :-) </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40853 Sat, 17 Nov 2012 02:12:02 +0000 Dragline 40853@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I might add to the sentiments of LiquidSapphire and bluepearl the advice of Benjamin Franklin about persuasion (which appears to be sorely needed in this day and age, but has mostly been followed in this little corner of the internet):</p> <p>"I made it a rule to forbear all direct contradiction to the sentiments of others, and all positive assertion of my own. I even forbid myself, agreeably to the old laws of our Junto, the use of every word or expression in the language that imported a fix'd opinion, such as certainly, undoubtedly, etc., and I adopted, instead of them, I conceive, I apprehend, or I imagine a thing to be so or so; or it so appears to me at present. When another asserted something that I thought an error, I deny'd myself the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly, and of showing immediately some absurdity in his proposition; and in answering I began by observing that in certain cases or circumstances his opinion would be right, but in the present case there appear'd or seem'd to me some difference, etc. I soon found the advantage of this change in my manner; the conversations I engag'd in went on more pleasantly. The modest way in which I propos'd my opinions procur'd them a readier reception and less contradiction; I had less mortification when I was found to be in the wrong, and I more easily prevail'd with others to give up their mistakes and join with me when I happened to be in the right. And this mode, which I at first put on with some violence to natural inclination, became at length so easy, and so habitual to me, that perhaps for these fifty years past no one has ever heard a dogmatical expression escape me. And to this habit (after my character of integrity) I think it principally owing that I had early so much weight with my fellow-citizens when I proposed new institutions, or alterations in the old, and so much influence in public councils when I became a member; for I was but a bad speaker, never eloquent, subject to much hesitation in my choice of words, hardly correct in language, and yet I generally carried my points."</p> <p>Franklin, Benjamin (2012-05-16). The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin (p. 78-80). . Kindle Edition. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40851 Sat, 17 Nov 2012 00:38:37 +0000 secretwealth 40851@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I saw this man speak about his book, which was U.S.-centric but still quite interesting seeming: <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/louis-hyman/a-brief-history-of-debt_b_1229435.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/louis-hyman/a-brief-history-of-debt_b_1229435.html</a></p> <p>I hope some day to have enough spare time to read it. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40844 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:11:46 +0000 LuckyMoneyCat 40844@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Hello all.</p> <p>For those interested, here is a book on the history of debt:<br /> "Debt: The First 5000 years" by David Graeber (2012).<br /> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1353103531&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=debt+the+first+5000+years" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Debt-First-5-000-Years/dp/1612191290/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&amp;ie=UTF8&amp;qid=1353103531&amp;sr=1-1&amp;keywords=debt+the+first+5000+years</a></p> <p>I do not believe it has been linked earlier at this forum.</p> <p>Mr. Graeber is also involved in the OWS movement. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40843 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:06:10 +0000 bluepearl 40843@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>@haplo-</p> <p>you sound like a casey newsletter or a peter schiff speech. I'm nodding my head multiple times as I do agree with most of your points (school, mortgage, banks blah blah). And I have also learnt a ton from them over the years. </p> <p>But casey or schiff manage to be educational and entertaining, and they know enough to teach newbies without alienating them.</p> <p>To further your cause I think it's probably a good idea to tone down a bit. It just seems counter-intuitive to me if people start shutting down to pablo's ideas b/c the delivery method isn't smooth enough, afterall, I do think you have the right ideas. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40841 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:51:41 +0000 LiquidSapphire 40841@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Yeesh...<br /> @Haplo - welcome to the forums, I notice you are fairly new here. We are certainly no stranger to debates on philosophical topics and such, but have to say your last post did come off a bit harsh to me... people here tend to be very intelligent and educated and we really do try very hard to be respectful here. I think I can speak for everyone that we really value the respect and decorum that persists on this form and it is something we strive to protect. There is no need for insults and name calling as it really shuts down interesting discussions very, very quickly. Perhaps you got a little overexcited in the heat of the moment, I can understand that, but request that in the future you please tone it down a bit... but thanks for the spirited discussion as I am sure many here enjoy this type of conversation. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40839 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:43:19 +0000 Haplo 40839@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>@bigato: Actually I do have a black belt, but that's not really relevant. I actually take the trouble to read up on anything I'm interested in, and I read quite a bit. I don't claim to know "everything", as if that were even possible, but when someone who has no knowledge at all wants to act like they're the equivalent of an expert, it pisses me off quite a bit.</p> <p>Economics is one thing I know a lot about. It also happens to be one of the most difficult and headache-inducing subjects I know of, and I find it extremely disrespectful when people who not only know nothing, but haven't done any of the mind-bending work to understand it, want to claim it's so simple that a high school economics class is all you need to know. You can't compare what I've said to the status quo, it's the completely wrong place to start. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40838 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:32:05 +0000 Haplo 40838@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p><a href="http://www.utopie.it/pubblicazioni/gesell.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.utopie.it/pubblicazioni/gesell.htm</a><br /> <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/11392072/The-General-Theory-of-Employment-Interest-and-Money" rel="nofollow">http://www.scribd.com/doc/11392072/The-General-Theory-of-Employment-Interest-and-Money</a><br /> <a href="http://mises.org/document/3250" rel="nofollow">http://mises.org/document/3250</a><br /> <a href="http://mises.org/document/520/Capital-and-Its-Structure" rel="nofollow">http://mises.org/document/520/Capital-and-Its-Structure</a><br /> <a href="http://mises.org/resources/5706/Lessons-for-the-Young-Economist" rel="nofollow">http://mises.org/resources/5706/Lessons-for-the-Young-Economist</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Depression</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession_of_1937%E2%80%931938" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession_of_1937%E2%80%931938</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Emperor" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Emperor</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corral%C3%B3n" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corral%C3%B3n</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic</a><br /> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_dollar</a> </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40837 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:27:28 +0000 ematt 40837@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>i think all these costs are bloated (inflated)- medical, housing and tuition and fees due to govt or other outside forces</p> <p>i know someone recently got two different quotes for kidney stones, one for if you have insurance, one for without insurance. the insurance quote was jacked up because the medical industry knows the insurance companies will knock the price down, the cash quote was for what the insurance co will actually pay the medical provider </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40836 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 21:23:51 +0000 bigato 40836@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Shut up Spartan, the guy is a polymath! Knows everything about biology, physiology, cancer, nutrition, history, economy, religion, and I bet he is a black belt too. He is a beautiful and unique snowflake.</p> <p> I told Jacob he should not allow teenagers in the forums, but you know the guy is all for freedom of speech and such. Teenagers just like you Spartan!! LOL </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40835 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 20:33:56 +0000 Spartan_Warrior 40835@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>@Haplo: What qualifies you? Other than your vast knowledge of economic history that seems to start in 1900 and the fact that you've been insulting anyone that opposes your ideology since your first post in this thread. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=2990&page=2#post-40831 Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:00:37 +0000 Haplo 40831@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <blockquote><p>Making banks accountable for fraudulent dealings, setting and enforcing rules for financable mortgages in the first place, etc. requires more government regulation, not less government. Keeping the businesses which actually did the damage out of the loop seems strange to me. You can't just blame everything on the government.</p></blockquote> <p>That <em>was</em> their job in the first place. If I steal your car, I go to jail. When the big banks steal millions of dollars, what do they get? 3 trillion dollars in reward money? How would throwing criminals in jail be "more government" than handing them 3 trillion+++ dollars? Not that the government has the slightest business doing anything at all, given that they were complicit in causing the crash and encouraging banks to sign off on fraudulent loans.</p> <blockquote><p>Calling degrees or employees worthless when it's market conditions which cause a sharp rise in unemployment is not puritan work ethic?</p></blockquote> <p>Market conditions caused by what, exactly? We have capital gains taxes, double taxes on dividends, triple taxes on foreign income, inflation that is higher than the artificially low interest rates, payroll taxes, the Obamacare tax, progressive taxes that screw over middle-sized business owners, and a mountain of regulations (including positive discrimination laws) for hiring and firing that make it difficult or impossible for anyone except wal-mart to hire people. Then you have government intervention causing market bubbles and market crashes that wipe out whatever capital people actually managed to build, which they solve by throwing trillions of taxpayer dollars at businesses which were found guilty of fraud. That's just the tip of the iceberg.</p> <blockquote><p>I consider a purely market-oriented world-view to be pretty warped and of little moral authority.</p></blockquote> <p>Since when is economics a moral issue anyway? It's obvious that your entire knowledge of economics comes from a high school economics class, so what qualifies you to argue about what a free market is or isn't, or how a market works? I can't even really touch on the issues because I'm having to spend half the time explaining extremely basic concepts that would require volumes to cover adequately. Volumes that are already written and available for free online, no less. </p>