http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ --- for those on the fast track to financial independence en Fri, 24 May 2013 05:42:08 +0000 http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=1635&page=2#post-51354 Sun, 19 May 2013 23:46:51 +0000 bigato 51354@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I'm on, are you there?<br /> :-) </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=1635&page=2#post-51347 Sun, 19 May 2013 21:23:47 +0000 JamesR 51347@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>This thread is a little absurd.. "I'm on, are you there?" repeated 10x. :P</p> <p>I've popped by a few times but nobody was active.</p> <p>I propose the following times:</p> <p><strong>Every Saturday &amp; Sunday at 12AM PST ( 3PM EST or 8PM UK time)</strong> </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-51063 Wed, 15 May 2013 15:27:10 +0000 RealPerson 51063@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>If you want to correctly account for the money you put in your house, you need to account for the opportunity cost of the paid mortgage. In other words, what would be a fairly guaranteed and predictable ROI for the paid mortgage principal. That is an expense since you are missing out on that income. The other expense is obviously the interest you are paying on the balance of the mortgage. </p> <p>On the other hand, you are saving the expense of paying rent. That could be entered as "income" and should reflect the actual current rent for a similar residence in your area. If you enter both sides of the equation, you would know what your actual cost is for living in your home. Your other cash layouts such as insurance, maintenance and utilities are also obviously expenses. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-51062 Wed, 15 May 2013 14:54:45 +0000 secretwealth 51062@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I realized that I do calculate the value of my real estate in two important ways:</p> <p>I calculate equity in my total net worth, but at the price I paid, not at its current market value. After 2008, I don't want to depend on price appreciation. I don't even calculate a 3% yearly inflationary growth. The price I paid is the price I hope to get out when I sell.</p> <p>I also calculate the net rental income after expenses as part of my total potential investment income. This way, the SWR metric isn't exactly fitting, but I do get to measure how much the shortfall is between what I spend and what I can get from not working, which helps me target investment goals in other holdings.</p> <p>Also, thinking about it this way motivates me to pay off mortgages completely instead of just paying them down as much as possible. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-51060 Wed, 15 May 2013 14:06:39 +0000 Chad 51060@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I kind of view it as Jennypenny and Tyler9000. </p> <p>@celliott<br /> True, but what if you could rent something significantly cheaper and invest the difference? Then would the more expensive mortgage still be savings or would it be an expense for a certain lifestyle? </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-51056 Wed, 15 May 2013 12:49:52 +0000 celliott 51056@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I don't believe it should be considered a neutral action.</p> <p>You will ultimately receive a return on this "savings". Imputed rent should not be ignored. If you were to invest the same principal in the market and after 15 or 30 years were to take the dividends or withdrawl the monies to pay rent, would that be a neutral event?</p> <p>No. A paid off house imputes an intangible return as imputed rent. You can (and I believe should) account for it. How you decide to do that is up to you. But there is value there. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=1635&page=2#post-51036 Wed, 15 May 2013 02:30:55 +0000 anomie 51036@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Hi bigato! Thank you for ere_forum_bot!</p> <p>awesome!</p> <p>sorry, off and on myself </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=1635&page=2#post-51032 Wed, 15 May 2013 01:45:33 +0000 bigato 51032@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>anomie, are you there? You never answer me </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-51029 Tue, 14 May 2013 23:38:42 +0000 Tyler9000 51029@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Paying principal on a mortgage is a neutral action, neither saving nor spending. You're simply transferring money from a liquid account into equity. If you were to pay off your mortgage in full tomorrow using your investment funds, you would not claim to have saved the value of your home in the process. </p> <p>So it depends on what you're measuring. From a net worth perspective, -new- money you accumulate after expenses is savings whether it goes into your investments or into home equity. But from a withdrawal rate perspective, your principal is an expense every month because it's being removed from your investments. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-51021 Tue, 14 May 2013 21:32:04 +0000 George the original one 51021@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>@jennypenny - I count a house as a long term asset, like an IRA, in that it will be sold to fund living in a care facility when we reach that age.</p> <p>Just say no to reverse mortgages. They're a crappy way to extract money from a house. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-51019 Tue, 14 May 2013 20:42:19 +0000 Mr.Moai 51019@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>@jacob: I agree that it's just a guideline, however it's a great moral boost to think that I'm saving over 75% instead of just 55% :-)</p> <p>@secretwealth: Great article. I think this sentence sums it up flawlesly:<br /> "If you choose to buy a house, you are not going long the housing market. You are going flat the housing market using a fixed rate product to lock in your exposure."</p> <p>@Spartan_Warrior: My thoughts exactly!</p> <p>@jennypenny: Interesting approach. I agree that your home isn't an investment as you need to live somewhere and would have to either sell it or rent it to realise a profit (or loss :-), well explained in the article posted by secretwealth; however I think it would be a mistake not to consider at least the monies spent on principal payments in your net worth (house equity may be a bit more tricky). Home related financial obligations shouldn't be anywhere near your home equity IMHO. It's probably heavily dependent on the market, but if you would be renting then RE taxes and maintenance are covered by your landlord but you still pay for it in the end + his profit. Utilities need to be paid either way.</p> <p>Thanks everyone for your great insight. I'm first time poster but I've been lurking for almost a year and you guys are a great inspiration. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50995 Tue, 14 May 2013 03:42:06 +0000 jennypenny 50995@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I don't count principle payments as savings, and I don't include any home equity in our net worth. I view our home as a consumption item, not an investment. I think the equity is offset by the financial obligations that come with it (RE taxes, maintenance, utilities). </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50990 Tue, 14 May 2013 03:17:46 +0000 Spartan_Warrior 50990@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I include equity in my overall net worth figure, so naturally I include it in my monthly/yearly savings rate calculations also. I do consider the equity just another asset, since I can sell the house to recoup the market value at any time. Like any asset, it has its associated risks, holding costs, and transaction fees. But it's not like the money is swallowed in an inaccessible hole.</p> <p>That said, I do keep track of "ERE funds" separately, and I don't rely on the equity to finance my retirement since I personally don't plan on selling my house. (I do rely on the low-cost housing solution of owning a home free and clear.) If I no longer need the house myself, I'll rent for a profit. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50985 Tue, 14 May 2013 02:57:48 +0000 secretwealth 50985@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>As far as I'm aware (I've been meaning to look into this), reverse mortgages work like annuities so your age is a factor. If you're too young, the payment you'll get will probably be too small--if you qualify.</p> <p>We all need a place to live, and owning outright lowers (or may lower) housing costs. So home ownership is a way to cut down costs and minimize risk. In this sense, it's a hedge.</p> <p>Calculating this equity buildup isn't too helpful if you plan on staying in the home and you're looking to build up a portfolio that provides a passive income.</p> <p>This is a great article to read on the topic: <a href="http://thezikomoletter.com/2012/12/10/you-are-naturally-short-housing/" rel="nofollow">http://thezikomoletter.com/2012/12/10/you-are-naturally-short-housing/</a> </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50981 Tue, 14 May 2013 02:42:59 +0000 jacob 50981@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Theoretically yes. Practically, it's trickier. While modern finance will happily exchange any cash flow for any other cash flow, in practice that costs money and/or is inconvenient.</p> <p>For example, someone who in principle has a 3% WR but has 100% of their assets in the roof over their head will have to take it out using a reverse mortgage. I have no idea what a safe withdrawal rate is in that case.. probably 0%.</p> <p>So frankly, I don't really know. The acid test for FI is whether you can generate adequate cash flow in the long run. Not some n% number.---That is just a guideline, not a guarantee. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50980 Tue, 14 May 2013 02:36:53 +0000 spoonman 50980@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I think you can definitely count it as part of your savings. I have a 15 year loan on my condo and roughly 50% of my mortgage payment goes toward the principal. That's a nice chunk of change that I hope to get back someday when I sell the place. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50969 Tue, 14 May 2013 00:47:17 +0000 secretwealth 50969@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>The only reason I don't is buffer. But you're right: it is definitely savings and should be treated as such. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50964 Tue, 14 May 2013 00:24:14 +0000 BennKar 50964@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I always included the principal repayment as part of my savings. I never understood why you wouldn't include it. Sure, the value of the house can go down (or up), but you can say that of most assets you can acquire. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50962 Mon, 13 May 2013 23:22:32 +0000 George the original one 50962@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Yeah, the principal can be counted in your savings rate. No problem to do so. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50959 Mon, 13 May 2013 22:59:23 +0000 secretwealth 50959@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I don't, but you definitely can. It is certainly savings--you are investing money in an appreciating asset. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3623#post-50958 Mon, 13 May 2013 22:53:18 +0000 Mr.Moai 50958@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Hello Everyone,</p> <p>I was just wondering if you include mortgage principal repayment in your savings rate calculation? In other words - do you consider principal repayment as savings for purposes of ERE?</p> <p>At first I thought that mortgage on a house you live in is an expense and can't be therefore considered as savings. However if I would be saving and investing money to generate an income to cover my housing cost that would be obviously included in the savings rate. Both ways seem to be somewhat similar in a way because end result is to basically eliminate a cost (for simplicity sake). </p> <p>Am I out of my mind thinking that principal repayment should be included in the savings rate?</p> <p>Thanks. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3621#post-50926 Sun, 12 May 2013 20:57:29 +0000 Dragline 50926@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>In my view, Autonomy, Mastery and Purpose are the three keys to determining whether any work or hobby activity is worth your time -- whether a paying job or not. See: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc</a></p> <p>For other general career advice, you may like the classic "The Magic of Thinking Big" first published in 1959. Free here: <a href="http://informationdj.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/the-magic-of-thinking-big-david-j-schwartz.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://informationdj.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/the-magic-of-thinking-big-david-j-schwartz.pdf</a> </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3621#post-50917 Sun, 12 May 2013 14:56:37 +0000 JamesR 50917@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>So I've been reading Cal Newport's book "So Good They Can't Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love" which LonerMatt mentioned in another forum thread.</p> <p>And I realized SGTCIY is to careers like ERE is to retirement. In other words, it provides some highly useful concepts for those 5 years of working when starting from scratch on the path to ERE.</p> <p>It covers a lot of the job issues that people bring up on this forum. Issues like job happiness, lack of control, doing thankless work, and deciding whether to "stick it out for another X number of years in a horrid environment."</p> <p>So the part that made me sit up and really take notice, is that it talks about building career capital (Hello? Sounds like ERE already!). Career capital mainly comes from rare &amp; valuable skills that you actively develop. Once you have this capital, you can leverage it to get more control over your current job or land a better job. Similar to how having a large emergency fund frees you up in this way too.</p> <p>Job happiness seems to depend on control (autonomy) &amp; ability. The more competent you are, the happier you are in your job.</p> <p>This means it is less important to jump around jobs trying to find a job that matches your pre-existing passions. Instead, the book argues for taking a craftsman approach. Engaging in deliberate practice, and working on developing the critical skills that really matter in your endeavours.</p> <p>A great quote from the book - "Control that's acquired without career capital is not sustainable." That sounds so ERE-ish does it not? </p> <p>I found it interesting because it made me realize that I made some pretty big mistakes before.</p> <p>For example, I left my job 6 years ago and tried to make it on my own, without sufficient career capital (skills) to succeed. Now I'm looking for a job again, after 6 years. Brutal. If only I had read ERE &amp; SGTCIY years ago.</p> <p>Of interesting note: Jacob developed additional skills during his ERE and used that to get a good job with lots of control as a quant. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3613#post-50853 Sat, 11 May 2013 00:52:07 +0000 Dragline 50853@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>That's funny. But the goals and visualization technique are still good ideas.</p> <p>Personally, I am on a sequel: "Episode Seven: The Wrath of Teenagers". It IS a lot like Southpark, actually. Including the young one with the foul mouth. ;-) </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3613#post-50850 Sat, 11 May 2013 00:25:12 +0000 ICouldBeTheWalrus 50850@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I can't help but think of <a href="http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/185666/thats-called-a-montage" rel="nofollow">http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/185666/thats-called-a-montage</a> (video) </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3613#post-50833 Fri, 10 May 2013 17:56:48 +0000 JamesR 50833@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>.<br /> <a href="http://www.highexistence.com/your-life-changing-movie-montage/"><img title="Personal Movie Montage" src="http://static.highexistence.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Personal_Montage.jpg" alt="Personal Movie Montage" /></a></p> <p>What's your version?</p> <p>Mine starts off with finding a job, finding shared accommodation, bicycling to work, learning to provision like a sailor and cooking staples and living off $100/month of food, finding free entertainment &amp; social/community life, paying off my debts, and learning to invest!</p> <p>EDIT: Sorry about the image not fitting.. Click on it if you want to see it. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582&page=2#post-50561 Tue, 07 May 2013 03:37:00 +0000 akratic 50561@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I'm pro bootcamp. There's massive demand for engineers that can walk the walk, and nine intensive weeks should be enough to get some projects completed, provided you have the right support around you.</p> <p>This is basically an investment with an astronomical ROI.</p> <p>I'd do my due diligence and find reviews from people who've actually attended the bootcamp you're thinking about, but $8-10k to get your foot in the door of a $60-80k or even six-figure career seems like a no-brainer to me.</p> <p>If you want to self-bootcamp, just come up with an idea for an app that you'd really be excited to see completed, and then go all the way to the finish line and release it. You could do an ERE related app for example: users create accounts and enter some information, it automatically generates pretty graphs that are exactly the width this forum supports (monthly wall charts etc.) </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50554 Tue, 07 May 2013 03:05:12 +0000 zazz 50554@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>hey James</p> <p>I just tried PMing you but unfortunately I don't have enough posts yet.</p> <p>I'm self teaching myself webdev and I'm guessing that you did the same?</p> <p>How long did it take for you to become career ready?<br /> Also what technologies did you focus on? I'm really overwhelmed by all the options.</p> <p>The market seems to be on fire for web dev stuff, probably due to the startup boom. Good luck with the job search. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50529 Mon, 06 May 2013 14:50:52 +0000 Hottentot 50529@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>I'm a procastinator by heart too. The thing that helped me a lot was limiting my internet time.<br /> When i go home, i spend 1 hour on the internet than i'll do my things (guitar playing, reading and other hobbies). </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50528 Mon, 06 May 2013 14:27:08 +0000 JamesR 50528@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>theanimal,</p> <p>Just gonna get a job, no bootcamp. Just need to keep sending out my resume &amp; contacting people and I'm sure to eventually land a decent web dev job.</p> <p>I'll just have to fill in my weak areas on my own. Just gonna have to do some targeted self-learning. Design a program to hit the fundamentals &amp; get the practice. </p> <p>One major problem I have is that I'm such a HUGE procrastinator &amp; prone to distraction. I haven't had much luck with sticking with something consistently for more than about 5 days. I always seem to fall off the wagon, get distracted, forget the plan, change plans, whatever. </p> <p>What I'll have to do is dedicate a specific time during the day and just do it regardless of what I feel until it becomes a habit. Hopefully I can make it through the hump heh. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50507 Mon, 06 May 2013 01:27:54 +0000 theanimal 50507@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Hi James, I'm wondering what you chose? </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50503 Sun, 05 May 2013 23:32:01 +0000 DC Waffler 50503@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Whether you get a hired for a good paying job or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether you will stick with that job long enough to make the cost of the bootcamp worthwhile. You seem to enjoy starting projects, but then you quit before finishing them. You're saying the bootcamp and subsequent job will make things different this time. But why? What's different? You mentioned that full time work would take away from awesome projects you want to do. Have you been able to complete any of those projects since 2007?</p> <p>If you go the bootcamp route, you are forcing yourself into a situation where you'll get a job and either be unable to quit because of the extra debt or you'll quit anyway, and that money will be down the tubes. Either option would be less than ideal. <a href="http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201304/the-most-basic-freedom-is-freedom-quit" rel="nofollow">http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201304/the-most-basic-freedom-is-freedom-quit</a></p> <p>I may sound like I'm judging you, but actually I can relate. I'm at my happiest doing something new. I went to college, and by the time I started to get bored, I graduated. Then I went to grad school, started to hate it and graduated there. Then I did a post-doc, and decided that I was no longer interested in that field. So, I did another fellowship to transition. Then I got the job that I've had for the last six years. I've been paying off debt and saving for early retirement since then. I'm sort of stuck here, because the job pays well, and I know if I leave and find another job, that I'll probably get bored with that after a couple of years, to.</p> <p>I'd say to get a job first, and stick with it for a couple of years while you pay of debt and save for the bootcamp if you still want to do it. Why does it have to be a local job? Move to where the high paying jobs are if they are not local. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50409 Sat, 04 May 2013 22:17:31 +0000 JamesR 50409@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>m741, </p> <p>Quit what job? I guess I never mentioned it, but I'm jobless currently. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50408 Sat, 04 May 2013 21:37:57 +0000 m741 50408@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Why would you quit your job to do the bootcamp, but not quit your job to study programming? I wouldn't trust any 'guaranteed jobs,' if that's your justification.</p> <p>I mean, maybe it's better if you keep your job, but it's a strange sort of asymmetry. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50393 Sat, 04 May 2013 16:26:02 +0000 JamesR 50393@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Aaldert,</p> <p>I made a little program/script to compare working a $50k job now, versus working a $60k job after bootcamp. It takes 33 months before the savings from the $60k job surpasses the savings from the $50k one.</p> <p>EDIT: I did some extra calculation. I could match the bootcamp in terms of hours spent studying/building sites in about 9 to 12 months. The bootcamp has a lot of "overtime", as it involves spending least 55-65 hours a week. If I assume I'm working a job right now, and I spend 15-20 hours a week outside of work studying/building, I would achieve the same results in 9 to 12 months. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50378 Sat, 04 May 2013 13:21:46 +0000 bluejoey 50378@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Don't go into more debt. Pay down your current debt with a steady job. Develop your skills and hobbies with your free time. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50375 Sat, 04 May 2013 10:33:48 +0000 Aaldert 50375@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>So let me get this straight, "semi-beginner" + 9 week crash course = guaranteed $55-70k, right?</p> <p>Another casual observation is that if you have to pay 10k (it was 8+2, right?) and make 10k a year more, it'll be a net loss for at least a year multiplied with the inverse of your tax ratio. And add 20% interest.</p> <p>I'm wondering what's so marketable in this boot camp that you can't pick up on yourself apart from lack of motivation, it doesn't sound like it's proprietary tech or anything. Is it some set of marketable monkey tricks or a solid foundation? I haven't heard of 9-week solid foundations, even at 60+ hours a week. But do fill me in :) </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50374 Sat, 04 May 2013 09:28:06 +0000 bibacula 50374@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>JamesR - As a fellow INTP, I usually try to find the perfect or ideal way to reach my goals. There are so many different "best" ways to do some things that it's hard to decide between them.</p> <p>When I decided to become FI, I just picked a good enough way that let me get started right away. Start now and focus on increasing the amount that you save every month.</p> <p>For a framework that you can use to make decisions like this, I'd recommend reading "Your Money or Your Life" by Vicki Robin and Joe Dominguez. Once you do all of the nine steps in the book (and you really must do the steps), you'll know when to spend money and when to save it.</p> <p>Best wishes! </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50373 Sat, 04 May 2013 08:19:30 +0000 JamesR 50373@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>Sclass,</p> <p>"You just said a few things like [...] not wanting to stay for the entire class and just learn what you needed to get a particular task done"</p> <p>Sorry but I didn't say anything like that, just wanted to make that clear. I'd absolutely stay for the entire class, learn what was taught, develop my portfolio, and get hired.</p> <p>Great story otherwise, and I hope I could be that guy ;)</p> <p>DutchGirl,</p> <p>I'd consider the bootcamp teaching model to be opposite from regular school, and therefore harder to skip or cheat yourself. Perhaps think of it more like summer camp? Essentially your time is fully scheduled, it's straight up 45+ hours a week, fully hands-on, lots of one-on-one, mentoring, etc. There's no 1 hour long lectures and then going home to maybe do homework. It's all done onsite during class time. Also, the focus is on getting in a ton of practice &amp; exposure - i.e. training, and the environment to go with it. </p> http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/topic.php?id=3582#post-50371 Sat, 04 May 2013 07:42:35 +0000 DutchGirl 50371@http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/ <p>One more thing: I'm sure that even at bootcamp you can successfully pretend to be working, but not do anything useful. I have sworn myself many times before a learning opportunity that THIS time I would be a good student, and do my best, and put in my hours (after all, it would only be for xx weeks), but then on day 2 I would find myself still preferring to go out for an icecream over studying. I have always finished with a diploma or certificate, but I have also always not gotten the most out of an opportunity to learn something new. </p>